Has the defense created reasonable doubt?

[ohiogirl]

They are organisms that live in water. Individual bodies of water have unique "diatom" signature, so the testing is really, really useful when you're trying to determine which body of water a person drowned in... Like if a body is found in a pool, but the diatoms in the pool don't match the diatoms found in the body... Then you know they really drowned somewhere else and were placed in the pool as staging.

ETA: that was a very simplistic overview... For more in depth try this... http://www.svazi.com/v1/forensic/diat_use_in_for.htm

And these would show up once a body is decomposed to the extent that there is no tissue?
There were only bones to analyze, iirc.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

They can, but that too depends on a lot of factors... It gets complicated, wet vs dry drowning and such. I'm not an expert, but I think the chances of getting strong diatomic evidence in this case were pretty slim, due to the condition of the remains, but I could be wrong. Also, like you pointed out, the drowning angle wasn't raised until much later.

If it depends on a lot of factors could these diatoms vary in the pool water over a period of time, say 31 days?

 

[Dr.Fessel]

Right. But I tend to believe that Cindy's lies are to benefit ICA. If she lied about not calling ICA that night, it would be pretty damning to ICA IMO, which is why I believe it. But I know the jury won't even consider it. Just something I have always wondered. Where was Caylee?

I bet Cindy is just as much of a liar as Casey is in everyday life. No doubt in my mind Cindy knew Casey was not working but I bet she told some great stories at work about her daughters job and how she was doing in it.

 

[ZsaZsa]

If it depends on a lot of factors could these diatoms vary in the pool water over a period of time, say 31 days?

Cadaver dogs did not indicate a dead Caylee was ever in the pool.

 

[sappysoul]

Murderers who dont think they will be caught do.Like ICA said she was a good lier she never had to own up before why would this time be any different.

I disagree. I think Casey knew she would eventually have to account for Caylee. She threw away everything that can be thrown away. The things that were left (decomp, hair, chloroform levels) were things she couldn't just toss. Are people surprised she didn't leave the rags or ingredients she used lying around? I think it would be common sense to get rid of those things. Don't confuse lazy with stupid.

 

[OneLostGrl]

I still have doubt but I think the jury will find her guilty.

 

[Hot Dogs]

Cadaver dogs did not indicate a dead Caylee was ever in the pool.

I would never expect a cadaver dog to alert on a pool in which somebody drowned and then was soon removed. Besides that, the Baquacil could confound the situation because it oxidizes organic compounds.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

So these diatoms only migrate if you drown?Interesting.

Cadaver dogs did not indicate a dead Caylee was ever in the pool.

Diatoms are microscopic algae that are present in any body of water including your own bath water. There are more than 15,000 strains. When a person drowns, the diatoms will become lodged in some tissues / organs of the body including migration to bone marrow. Matter in the lungs is usually not relied upon because of how easily they can be inhaled threw normal activities such as swimming, bathing, etc.

If it depends on a lot of factors could these diatoms vary in the pool water over a period of time, say 31 days?

Apparently these diatoms are naturally occurring organisms found in bodies of water.

 

[SCWldneart]

I still have doubt but I think the jury will find her guilty.

I'm just sitting here wondering what it is that anyone would have doubts about still. What exactly is it that you are doubting?

 

[katydid23]

I would never expect a cadaver dog to alert on a pool in which somebody drowned and then was soon removed. Besides that, the Baquacil could confound the situation because it oxidizes organic compounds.

But if they scooped her out of the pool wouldn't they place her in the grass right next to the pool and try to revive her? Because there were no alerts NEAR the pool.

 

[Hot Dogs]

And these would show up once a body is decomposed to the extent that there is no tissue? There were only bones to analyze, iirc.

Yes. These microscopic organisms have a cell wall created from silica. Even when the diatoms are dead and dried the silica "shell" remains and has a unique shape which can identify the genera or species (variety).

 

[cuppy199]

I disagree. I think Casey knew she would eventually have to account for Caylee. She threw away everything that can be thrown away. The things that were left (decomp, hair, chloroform levels) were things she couldn't just toss. Are people surprised she didn't leave the rags or ingredients she used lying around? I think it would be common sense to get rid of those things. Don't confuse lazy with stupid.

I never implied she was stupid actually quite the opposite. I dont think someone stupid could come up with such great details in their lies. She was anything but stupid. We know she was lazy but she was also very good at what she did or so she thought. ICA thought her lies would be believe right down to the kidnapping story. Its just my opinion but I dont believe for one minute she thought she would be caught at least not by LE.

 

[katydid23]

WHY didn't the defense team test for these diatoms to prove their client was innocent then?

 

[katydid23]

Yes. These microscopic organisms have a cell wall created from silica. Even when the diatoms are dead and dried the silica "shell" remains and has a unique shape which can identify the genera or species (variety).

Dr Spitz and LKB were onboard from the start. WHY DIDN'T THEY TEST FOR THESE DIATOMS????????

 

[GeekyGirl]

If it depends on a lot of factors could these diatoms vary in the pool water over a period of time, say 31 days?

I would think so, yes. A pool that's been freshly treated with an algaecide like Baquacil (which is what they used) should have very few, if any, diatoms. But as the algaecide wears off, diatoms could grow (that's why you have to retreat pools) so I think it's reasonable to think you couldn't say what the water would have contained 31 days earlier, especially if the pool had been treated during that time.

 

[cuppy199]

WHY didn't the defense team test for these diatoms to prove their client was innocent then?

Because then they couldn't say it was an accident :twocents:

 

[gngr~snap]

I also think the DT did very well today and did create reasonable doubt as to premeditation. I very much agree with a lot of things JB said about the junk science and fantasy forensics. I agree with Dr. Baden where he says the state messed up big time by not testing for DNA in the maggots present in the car and also not taking water samples from the pool to compare with what was in Caylee's bone marrow. IMO. this is far from a slam dunk for the state - which I think lost focus by concentrating too much on obtaining a murder 1 conviction rather than finding out the truth. They could have easily proved or disproved the accidental drowning theory and if proved, still would have been a win for the state. Anyway, I hope we get justice here...real justice for Caylee, not just a lynching.

I'm starting to think this is possible.

I thought diatoms were not collected from Caylee-

BADEN: Yes, the diatoms. If she drowned, then the diatoms in the bone marrow which they examined. But they examined it for toxicology not these one-sell plans, can tell which body of water, pool, lake, and a bathtub that she may have drowned in, if she had drowned.

VAN SUSTEREN: One thing the viewers should know, and this is probably the dirty secret about trying cases, the gamesmanship between defense and prosecution. Sometimes both sides don't want a principle analyzed because they are afraid of what the result will be. In this instance this diatoms is that something every medical examiner knows about that should have been done here?


BADEN: I think all medical examiners know about it. I think it should have been done. As you indicated, maybe the prosecutor didn't want to do it. Maybe the defense didn't want to do it because they didn't want the results. But it could have been done, it should have been done and it wasnt done.


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/on-th...case-csi-look-forensic-evidence#ixzz1R6Gcduhp



I thought dr G based homocide on 3 things.
-in the woods in a bag
-911 not called
-duct tape across mouth.


hmmm... :waitasec:

 

[Hot Dogs]

But if they scooped her out of the pool wouldn't they place her in the grass right next to the pool and try to revive her? Because there were no alerts NEAR the pool.

The ability for the dog to detect is going to depend on time elapsed for decomposition. There must be a window of time in which a dog will not be able to detect a dead person.

 

[sappysoul]

I never implied she was stupid actually quite the opposite. I dont think someone stupid could come up with such great details in their lies. She was anything but stupid. We know she was lazy but she was also very good at what she did or so she thought. ICA thought her lies would be believe right down to the kidnapping story. Its just my opinion but I dont believe for one minute she thought she would be caught at least not by LE.

She may have thought she'd never get caught but she knew she would have to have some explanation for why Caylee wasn't around any more. Regardless, I just don't see her leaving the rag or any signs of making chloroform lying around when they can be easily tossed. That makes no sense at all.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

WHY didn't the defense team test for these diatoms to prove their client was innocent then?

Maybe because they would find some diatoms but would have no way to tie them to the Anthony pool? I don't know but if anyone whats to claim "junk science" this could be it.