Haunting Evidence: JonBenet Ramsey

[CathyR]

Some of these track a person down sites like info space and intellius will list possible relatives. You don't have to go to the pay for it sites to get this info. Maybe not a son but nephew, etc. I'll see what I can dig up and post a link if I find anything.
Thanks for the lead.

 

[CathyR]

I looked up his OBIT and look at who is listed as a son.

https://www.cu.edu/sg/messages/1233.html

 

[CathyR]

Gamer language wouldn't rule out JR or PR. The fact that a RN might contain gamer language could also point to ANYONE being familiar with that language. The R's could have picked up the language from Burke or John Andrew, people who might have actually played the games. The RN is a red herring regardless of who did it. It was meant to throw doubt and confuse the investigators regardless of who did it. The RN is not real in the sense that anyone really attempted to kidnap JBR. She was the target and the RN an attempt to cover up.

I am somewhat familiar with gamer language and I'm a grandmother who celebrates the 30 plus anniversary of my 18th birthday every year. You don't have to be a young whipper snapper to know the language.

 

[LinasK]

Gamer language wouldn't rule out JR or PR. The fact that a RN might contain gamer language could also point to ANYONE being familiar with that language. The R's could have picked up the language from Burke or John Andrew, people who might have actually played the games. The RN is a red herring regardless of who did it. It was meant to throw doubt and confuse the investigators regardless of who did it. The RN is not real in the sense that anyone really attempted to kidnap JBR. She was the target and the RN an attempt to cover up.

I am somewhat familiar with gamer language and I'm a grandmother who celebrates the 30 plus anniversary of my 18th birthday every year. You don't have to be a young whipper snapper to know the language.

"fat cat" doesn't have to be gamer language- it was a common expression that Patsy/John could have picked up from spy novels or movies, in fact it was reported that they both liked that genre.

 

[joeskidbeck]

"fat cat" doesn't have to be gamer language- it was a common expression that Patsy/John could have picked up from spy novels or movies, in fact it was reported that they both liked that genre.

"Fat cats" are also a group of Atlanta business men that JR was a part of. It seems this was considered an honor and JR's inlaws made mention of his being a "fat cat" often.

 

[BBB167893]

Sorry Dave not an insult intended here on my part. I VALUE your opinion and figured with all your knowledge about this case you would be the most qualified to see what is in the game and if any language like foreign faction, beheading etc came up in the game content.
I may not agree with you on all points but you never make me feel stupid or insult me. You are a good debater you stick to the points and don't resort to underhanded tactics to make a point. No shots fired from this side.

I'm the one to apologize, CathyR. Like I said, sometimes I see problems where there are none. After this many years, it comes with the territory.

I would extend the same compliments to you. You're new, but you've already impressed me, and that's hard to do.

Tell you what. I'll give this game the once-over, and I'll talk to my brother, who is an avid gamer and might know more about it.

Dave if you research the game and play it be prepared. Some of these gamers are worse than any person ever banned from this forum and that includes Jams. You thought she would be hard to beat in sense of extremes, she wouldn't raise an eyebrow in some of these gamer communities.

Yeah, I know. It's like tap dancing in a minefield.

I would just ask my son to compare the RN and the gamer language but he thinks we are all bored housewives with nothing better to do than discuss cold cases with little to no real facts to substantiate our opinions. He would not be very motivated or dedicated to finding any answers.

Yeah, that's the stereotype we have to live with.

Once again I apologize if you felt insulted by my previous post.

I didn't feel insulted. I didn't know if that was your intention, so I decided to give you the benefit of the doubt before I flew off the handle.

 

[DeeDee249]

I believe it was a Nintedo game that BR got for Christmas that year.

 

[sogren]

Gamer language or not, I really don't think Burke was sophisticated enough to write that note.

 

[EastCoast]

No way Burke Ramsey]wrote the ransom note

 

[CathyR]

The handwriting is too neat even with the cross outs for a 9 year old to write. My son and my cousin have text book perfect handwriting and neither of them could have written the note at age 9. I think the posters who believe Burke did it also believe that Patsy and John covered up for him and one of them would have to be the author. In a Burke did it theory no one can put forth a viable scenario without him having some help from someone who is an adult.

 

[CathyR]

"fat cat" doesn't have to be gamer language- it was a common expression that Patsy/John could have picked up from spy novels or movies, in fact it was reported that they both liked that genre.

So the RN has components of "old fashioned" terms like fat cat, and grow a brain. It also has some gamer language in it, and pre 9-11 I find it strange they mention beheading (something we as a nation became familiar with from Muslim extremist post 9-11). There is a thread here somewhere with linguistics as the subject.

 

[LinasK]

So the RN has components of "old fashioned" terms like fat cat, and grow a brain. It also has some gamer language in it, and pre 9-11 I find it strange they mention beheading (something we as a nation became familiar with from Muslim extremist post 9-11). There is a thread here somewhere with linguistics as the subject.

There are also French terms in it such as "attache". Patsy knew French. Most people would just say "brief case".
The language used in the note doesn't :snooty:rule out Patsy as the writer, or John could've dictated to her.
F.Y.I. I'm an RDI who believes John was the killer...

 

[CathyR]

I'm on the I don't know who did it side. Each scenario is plausible and very possible with one exception-Burke. I don't think he would have the physical strength or that the parents would have needed to cover up. The defense being it was accidental, he had no idea he could kill his sister, coaching him as to what to say. He heard something got scared thought a "monster" was in house and hit sis (who had gotten up out of bed) by accident. Too many accident scenarios they could have come up with besides kidnapping by a foreign faction and garroting her in basement. I'm stuck between RDI and IDI as both have good evidence. If the RDI is true, I don't think 1 parent acted alone they both had to be in on it.

 

[joeskidbeck]

I'm on the I don't know who did it side. Each scenario is plausible and very possible with one exception-Burke. I don't think he would have the physical strength or that the parents would have needed to cover up. The defense being it was accidental, he had no idea he could kill his sister, coaching him as to what to say. He heard something got scared thought a "monster" was in house and hit sis (who had gotten up out of bed) by accident. Too many accident scenarios they could have come up with besides kidnapping by a foreign faction and garroting her in basement. I'm stuck between RDI and IDI as both have good evidence. If the RDI is true, I don't think 1 parent acted alone they both had to be in on it.

All of this would work for me if it weren't for the prior sexual abuse. They knew if this was called in as an accident LE would be on their steps looking for the abuser. Accident or murder, they had to stage the cover-up.

 

[joeskidbeck]

I guess it's pretty apparent that I'm RDI but I wasn't always. I believed the IDI until I learned of the prior abuse. That changed everything for me and I cannot find my way back to believing in Ramsey innocence.

 

[CathyR]

All of this would work for me if it weren't for the prior sexual abuse. They knew if this was called in as an accident LE would be on their steps looking for the abuser. Accident or murder, they had to stage the cover-up.

The injuries other than the ones that occurred that night are not clearly evidence of prior abuse, no coroner put that in a report. It was suspicious but not evidence a coroner could say without a doubt was due to the parents actions. It could have been explained away innocently. Her numerous UTI's, bedwetting, Patsy even douching her ( still don't know if she actually did do that, can't find statements by her she did). They had no problem taking the child to a pediatrician for her UTI's and vaginitis. That is something an abuser would not, could not, risk. The fact she went to the doctor so many times is what makes me lean to the side who do not believe prior abuse. Each visit would be an opportunity to get caught. Had a coroner found any evidence that she had been abused sexually before the night of the murder her doctor would have been in big trouble provided they could prove she was being assaulted prior to his exams. As everyone has pointed out here she suffered from these infections for quite a while before the murder. Over a year with numerous trips to doctor in that time period.
If he (the pedi) suspected the parents he would have been required to report it to CPS and if he suspected abuse but not at the hands of her parents he would have been obligated to inform them. If JBR was not murdered and told anyone about the abuse the doctor could get into big trouble for failing to diagnose the abuse regardless of who did it. A doctor has to cover his hiney as well and no amount of money the R's had would be enough to risk an entire lifetime high paying career on. A Dr.'s insurance comapny to defend malpractice wouldn't cover him under those circumstances. Evidence of prior abuse is an idea propagated here not in her autopsy report. No concrete evidence like vaginal tearing and scarring is present, only slight erosion which could have been cause by numerous things besides abuse. It is theorized due to the numerous UTI's and the erosion that abuse is what caused it. No doctor has stated "we found evidence of prior abuse of the victim". I am not saying you are wrong she might have been abused but since I can't find any statements from medical experts who actually examined her post or pre murder stating so..... I have to call it a theory.... unless someone can post something from a MD who examined her. I can't call it anything more than walking like a duck as no proof talking like a duck as been posted. If you have any links to reports clue me in. I would love to be able to make what I call an educated guess based on concrete facts provable and irrefutable.

 

[sogren]

I guess it's pretty apparent that I'm RDI but I wasn't always. I believed the IDI until I learned of the prior abuse. That changed everything for me and I cannot find my way back to believing in Ramsey innocence.

I was an IDI too. After doing my "homework" so to speak, I can't believe I ever thought they were innocent.

 

[UKGuy]

The injuries other than the ones that occurred that night are not clearly evidence of prior abuse, no coroner put that in a report. It was suspicious but not evidence a coroner could say without a doubt was due to the parents actions. It could have been explained away innocently. Her numerous UTI's, bedwetting, Patsy even douching her ( still don't know if she actually did do that, can't find statements by her she did). They had no problem taking the child to a pediatrician for her UTI's and vaginitis. That is something an abuser would not, could not, risk. The fact she went to the doctor so many times is what makes me lean to the side who do not believe prior abuse. Each visit would be an opportunity to get caught. Had a coroner found any evidence that she had been abused sexually before the night of the murder her doctor would have been in big trouble provided they could prove she was being assaulted prior to his exams. As everyone has pointed out here she suffered from these infections for quite a while before the murder. Over a year with numerous trips to doctor in that time period.
If he (the pedi) suspected the parents he would have been required to report it to CPS and if he suspected abuse but not at the hands of her parents he would have been obligated to inform them. If JBR was not murdered and told anyone about the abuse the doctor could get into big trouble for failing to diagnose the abuse regardless of who did it. A doctor has to cover his hiney as well and no amount of money the R's had would be enough to risk an entire lifetime high paying career on. A Dr.'s insurance comapny to defend malpractice wouldn't cover him under those circumstances. Evidence of prior abuse is an idea propagated here not in her autopsy report. No concrete evidence like vaginal tearing and scarring is present, only slight erosion which could have been cause by numerous things besides abuse. It is theorized due to the numerous UTI's and the erosion that abuse is what caused it. No doctor has stated "we found evidence of prior abuse of the victim". I am not saying you are wrong she might have been abused but since I can't find any statements from medical experts who actually examined her post or pre murder stating so..... I have to call it a theory.... unless someone can post something from a MD who examined her. I can't call it anything more than walking like a duck as no proof talking like a duck as been posted. If you have any links to reports clue me in. I would love to be able to make what I call an educated guess based on concrete facts provable and irrefutable.

CathyR,
It is our theory because we do not have access to all the autopsy evidence. Not all of it has been released. JonBenet's photographs, which form part of the autopsy evidence, make it evident that not all her injuries were acute e.g. simply sustained at around the time of her death. Regardless of whomever inflicted them JonBenet's abnormal vagina is direct evidence of chronic sexual abuse

http://www.acandyrose.com/01301997warrant.htm

Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that she witnessed the autopsy of JonBenet Ramsey which was conducted by Dr. John Meyer on December 26, 1996. Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that she observed Dr. Meyer examine the vaginal area of the victim and heard him state that the victim had received an injury consistent with digital penetration of her vagina. Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer told her that is was his opinion that the victim had been subjected to sexual contact.

Also:-

Det. Arndt informed Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer stated to her that he observed red stains in the crotch area of the panties that the child was wearing at the time that the child's body was subjected to the external visual examination. Dr. Meyer stated to Det. Arndt that the red stain appeared to be consistent with blood. Det. Arndt further informed Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer stated to her that after examining the panties (as described above), he observed the exterior pubic area of the child's body located next to the areas of the panties containing the red stains and found no visible reddish stains in the area. Dr. Meyer stated to Det. Arndt that his opinion is that the evidence observed is consistent with the child's public area having been wiped by a cloth.

So someone wiped JonBenet down after her death, and potentially after the size-12's were placed on her, so why would anyone want to do that, whats to hide?

Dr. Ronald Wright opined:-

BOULDER -- JonBenet Ramsey was sexually assaulted, suffered a tremendous blow to the head and was strangled as much as an hour later, a respected forensic pathologist said Tuesday.
Dr. Ronald Wright, director of the forensic pathology department at the University of Miami School of Medicine, reviewed JonBenet's autopsy report Tuesday at the request of the Rocky Mountain News.
''She's been sexually assaulted,'' said Wright, who served as the medical examiner in Broward County, Fla., 13 years.
"She's had vaginal penetration.''
Wright -- who has done consulting for the FBI and worked on the Elvis Presley autopsy -- joined a growing chorus of out-of-town experts who see sexual assault as part of the unsolved Christmas night murder.

JonBenet Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation Chapt. 24. states:-

In mid-September, a panel pediatric experts from around the country reached one of the major conclusions of the investigation - that JonBenet had suffered vaginal trauma prior to the day she was killed

And JonBenet Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation Chapt. 32. states:-

Detective Harmer presented a surprising anatomy lesson on vaginas to a meeting attended primarly for men. She showed a picture of the vagina of a normal healthy six-year-old girl and contrasted it with a photo of the vagina of jonBenet. Even to the uninformed the visual difference was apparent, and Harmer cited the experts who said there was evidence of chronic sexual abuse although the detectives referred to it only as 'prior vaginal trauma.'

So we have digital penetrationand sexual contact. We have JonBenet being wiped down, and numerous experts who viewed the same photographs citing chronic sexual abuse. I do not think its a mass conspiracy against the R's, or something that can be explained away innocently.

All this evidence suggests that this is a sexually motivated homicide. thats why there was staging not to hide the homicide that was done, no it was to hide and mask the prior molestation!


.

 

[joeskidbeck]

Thanks, UKGuy. When I combine all the evidence such as her toileting issues and the coroner's and witness' statements, I come up with prior abuse. It's like the rest of this case, it's not just one thing that points to abuse but a totality of the evidence.

 

[Tadpole12]

The injuries other than the ones that occurred that night are not clearly evidence of prior abuse, no coroner put that in a report. It was suspicious but not evidence a coroner could say without a doubt was due to the parents actions. It could have been explained away innocently. Her numerous UTI's, bedwetting, Patsy even douching her ( still don't know if she actually did do that, can't find statements by her she did). They had no problem taking the child to a pediatrician for her UTI's and vaginitis. That is something an abuser would not, could not, risk. The fact she went to the doctor so many times is what makes me lean to the side who do not believe prior abuse. Each visit would be an opportunity to get caught. Had a coroner found any evidence that she had been abused sexually before the night of the murder her doctor would have been in big trouble provided they could prove she was being assaulted prior to his exams. As everyone has pointed out here she suffered from these infections for quite a while before the murder. Over a year with numerous trips to doctor in that time period.
If he (the pedi) suspected the parents he would have been required to report it to CPS and if he suspected abuse but not at the hands of her parents he would have been obligated to inform them. If JBR was not murdered and told anyone about the abuse the doctor could get into big trouble for failing to diagnose the abuse regardless of who did it. A doctor has to cover his hiney as well and no amount of money the R's had would be enough to risk an entire lifetime high paying career on. A Dr.'s insurance comapny to defend malpractice wouldn't cover him under those circumstances. Evidence of prior abuse is an idea propagated here not in her autopsy report. No concrete evidence like vaginal tearing and scarring is present, only slight erosion which could have been cause by numerous things besides abuse. It is theorized due to the numerous UTI's and the erosion that abuse is what caused it. No doctor has stated "we found evidence of prior abuse of the victim". I am not saying you are wrong she might have been abused but since I can't find any statements from medical experts who actually examined her post or pre murder stating so..... I have to call it a theory.... unless someone can post something from a MD who examined her. I can't call it anything more than walking like a duck as no proof talking like a duck as been posted. If you have any links to reports clue me in. I would love to be able to make what I call an educated guess based on concrete facts provable and irrefutable.

Heyya CathyR.

That's the thing, as you word it.

"I can't find any statements from medical experts who actually examined her post or pre murder stating so....." - CR

You won't.

It all goes back to the numerous discusssion here on the numerous threads about ....

...terms of description a coronerer or forensic pathologist would use vs the criteria, used by medical community. which indicates / suggest sexual abuse.