Heinz Barth, former ss officer dies

[Nova]

a defense of what? if lightwaveryder did not say anything against this country why would you think i was saying We're not as bad as the Nazis as a defense?

I wasn't suggesting that was your personal defense, sherri. But what else does all the uproar here boil down to except "We're not as bad as the Nazis"?

If we're complaining about exaggeration, that is basically what we are saying: not that we are blameless, just that we aren't that bad!

(ETA: I don't see where lightwave said anything "against this country" other than what we all know to be true: a few Americans have committed war crimes in Iraq. Her point was that while we express our righteous indignation against the Nazis, we might want to think about how we are viewed by others.)

 

[sherri79]

select few sicko's....

will not be held accountable .....

abu graib is the tip of the iceberg

if i said some people hate the other political part so much they will turn a private sexual matter into a legal matter in hopes of destroying a man... i'm sure nobody would say i was talking about Clinton. i never said his name. i never said monica i never said impeach. if i said some leaders will use any excuse to go to war for the love of oil. who would you think i was talking about?

if she is saying that because of a few bad guys we will be viewed by history as the nazi's are viewed her post makes no sense at all. every war has a few bad guys. every war has a select few sicko's that commit war crimes. how in any way is that relevant to the thread she posted on? was she saying the nazi killer was 1 of a select few sicko's and we should not judge all nazi's by him? or was she saying we need to step back and see how much like the nazi's we are?

it is a real shame that this happened on this thread. over 600 people killed by a man who served less than 16 years. these people had family's. they died painful deaths. innocent children burned alive and we talk politics. but who cares if the victims are forgotten in a chance to bash the other side. i am ashamed of myself for getting caught up in this mess. i still think what she said was sick but i should have left it at my first post. good night.

 

[AfterMidnight]

Apparently the words you capped and I highlighted were typed into lightwaveryder's post in a very special font that only you and I can see.

Nah, I can see them too. Anyone with a brain and without an AGENDA can see them.

 

[Nova]

First, sherri, I want to thank you for once again approaching an emotional topic in a respectful manner. I appreciate that for my own sake and as one who loves reasonable discussion.

if i said some people hate the other political part so much they will turn a private sexual matter into a legal matter in hopes of destroying a man... i'm sure nobody would say i was talking about Clinton. i never said his name. i never said monica i never said impeach. if i said some leaders will use any excuse to go to war for the love of oil. who would you think i was talking about?

I don't think lightwave meant Bush in her reference to "sickos." I think she was talking about the immediate perpetrators of atrocities in Iraq. I could be wrong. It was I who suggested Bush shares responsibility for creating the environment in which those atrocities could be perpetrated. I stand by that statement. But I didn't say "Bush is Hitler" and neither did anyone else. I agree with John Stewart that Bush/Hitler comparisons trivialize both.

if she is saying that because of a few bad guys we will be viewed by history as the nazi's are viewed her post makes no sense at all. every war has a few bad guys. every war has a select few sicko's that commit war crimes. how in any way is that relevant to the thread she posted on? was she saying the nazi killer was 1 of a select few sicko's and we should not judge all nazi's by him? or was she saying we need to step back and see how much like the nazi's we are?

I took her to mean the latter, which is not to say we are wholly or even mostly like the Nazis. Rather we should recognize the traits we share with them, even if we are small potatos by comparison.

When I read her post, I could hear my grandma saying something like, "Why don't you make your bed and vacuum your room while you're talking about how the neighbor lady is a slob?"

it is a real shame that this happened on this thread. over 600 people killed by a man who served less than 16 years. these people had family's. they died painful deaths. innocent children burned alive and we talk politics. but who cares if the victims are forgotten in a chance to bash the other side. i am ashamed of myself for getting caught up in this mess. i still think what she said was sick but i should have left it at my first post. good night.

Although the death toll in Iraq is miniscule compared to that of WWII, it certainly can be compared to the crimes of this one man. Over 600 people have been killed. They had families. Innocent children have been burned alive.

The fact that saying so can be chalked up to "politics" is precisely the problem and only reinforces what I believe to be lightwave's point.

We should all be on the "side" opposed to such atrocities. And we were when similar atrocities were committed in Vietnam 35 years ago. Nowadays we just shrug and go back to watching American Idol, stopping only long enough to tsk, tsk over somebody else's atrocity.

lightwaveryder isn't the only one who appreciates the irony.

 

[Amraann]

First, sherri, I want to thank you for once again approaching an emotional topic in a respectful manner. I appreciate that for my own sake and as one who loves reasonable discussion.



I don't think lightwave meant Bush in her reference to "sickos." I think she was talking about the immediate perpetrators of atrocities in Iraq. I could be wrong. It was I who suggested Bush shares responsibility for creating the environment in which those atrocities could be perpetrated. I stand by that statement. But I didn't say "Bush is Hitler" and neither did anyone else. I agree with John Stewart that Bush/Hitler comparisons trivialize both.



I took her to mean the latter, which is not to say we are wholly or even mostly like the Nazis. Rather we should recognize the traits we share with them, even if we are small potatos by comparison.

When I read her post, I could hear my grandma saying something like, "Why don't you make your bed and vacuum your room while you're talking about how the neighbor lady is a slob?"



Although the death toll in Iraq is miniscule compared to that of WWII, it certainly can be compared to the crimes of this one man. Over 600 people have been killed. They had families. Innocent children have been burned alive.

The fact that saying so can be chalked up to "politics" is precisely the problem and only reinforces what I believe to be lightwave's point.

We should all be on the "side" opposed to such atrocities. And we were when similar atrocities were committed in Vietnam 35 years ago. Nowadays we just shrug and go back to watching American Idol, stopping only long enough to tsk, tsk over somebody else's atrocity.

lightwaveryder isn't the only one who appreciates the irony.

Innocent children in Iraq are being killed by THEIR own countrymen.
I will not deny that in every war there are US soldiers who do some atrocious things. (a few bad apples usually NOT following orders)

TO bring that up on a thread about Nazi war crimes is simply wrong.
As a few bad apples does not equate to an entire military who's goal was to commit such war crimes.

I am not sure why Bush's grandfather was mentioned either..
There is simply no reason that a group of adults cannot discuss or debate this topic without the thread going down in flames.

 

[lightwaveryder]

You know what....if you were standing in front of me and a man.....I'd knock your teeth out for comparing our sollders to Nazi's.

You make me SICK. You need to go read some history and learn what the hell you are talking about before you besmearch the good name of our soldiers who serve honorably and honestly and do an outstanding job by comparing them to a bunch of murderous nazis.

You make me sick.

Cal

go read some history your self, and as far as the violence thing goes ...i would enjoy very much teaching you a lesson yourself mr internet tough guy.

if you really think that none of our guys are comitting war crimes, you are a big F@$@%^ idiot.

well, you basically proved that with your initial post anyway, so that would only be reinforcing the obvious.

The point, which you missed jackass, was that you are going to be reading these stories about this war later, just as you read the one above.

i despair for the future knowing that you are of breeding age.



~lwr~

 

[Amraann]

go read some history your self, and as far as the violence thing goes ...i would enjoy very much teaching you a lesson yourself mr internet tough guy.

if you really think that none of our guys are comitting war crimes, you are a big F@$@%^ idiot.

well, you basically proved that with your initial post anyway, so that would only be reinforcing the obvious.

The point, which you missed jackass, was that you are going to be reading these stories about this war later, just as you read the one above.

i despair for the future knowing that you are of breeding age.



~lwr~

Since your all so big on reading ... I suggest that some of you read the WS Terms of Service.

So much for intelligent adults discussing an issue.

 

[Squishified]

Since your all so big on reading ... I suggest that some of you read the WS Terms of Service.

So much for intelligent adults discussing an issue.

Amen!

 

[calus_3]

go read some history your self, and as far as the violence thing goes ...i would enjoy very much teaching you a lesson yourself mr internet tough guy.

if you really think that none of our guys are comitting war crimes, you are a big F@$@%^ idiot.

well, you basically proved that with your initial post anyway, so that would only be reinforcing the obvious.

The point, which you missed jackass, was that you are going to be reading these stories about this war later, just as you read the one above.

i despair for the future knowing that you are of breeding age.



~lwr~

You still make me sick.....try reading something other than Mein Kampf sometime and you may understand a little history.

Cal

 

[Nova]

Innocent children in Iraq are being killed by THEIR own countrymen.
I will not deny that in every war there are US soldiers who do some atrocious things. (a few bad apples usually NOT following orders)

TO bring that up on a thread about Nazi war crimes is simply wrong.
As a few bad apples does not equate to an entire military who's goal was to commit such war crimes.

I am not sure why Bush's grandfather was mentioned either..
There is simply no reason that a group of adults cannot discuss or debate this topic without the thread going down in flames.

I absolutely agree with your last paragraph, Amraann, both about the need for reasonable discussion and the irrelevance of Bush's remote predecessors.

And at this point, yes, the vast majority of atrocities in Iraq are committed by Iraqis. I'm sure we all agree that is terrible, but again, the fact that others are worse isn't much of a defense of our own behavior.

And while we all want to distinguish between a few Americans committing atrocities and the vast majority of American servicemen and women, I'm not sure we can simply write off the former as "a few bad apples." Relatively few, yes, but that phrase and your post seem to suggest American atrocities are unavoidable accidents with no relation to U.S. policy. But complex situations such as Abu Graib suggest we've created a climate in which atrocities are sometimes allowed to flourish. We all share responsibility for that and the fact that Abu Graib can't compare to Auschwitz is, yet again, not much of a moral defense.

While I am critical of the current administration, I don't for a moment think they set out to exterminate all Iraqis, which is the only thing that would make the current situation at all equal to the Holocaust.

But even if the mid-20th century German genocide campaign is ultimately incomparable, why should that stop us from drawing lessons from it? Shall we deem the Holocaust an anomaly (which renders it useless as a cautionary example) or shall we invoke it as a negative model to insure we don't repeat it, even in relatively small ways?

 

[NewMom2003]

Geez Louise! I thought personal attacks of members were against TOS.

 

[4sure]

You blame Bush for the actions of his grandfather? You better go check your family tree.

No I don't blame him for his grandfathers actions at all. I think he and his father work for the same global elite that his grandfather did. Neo Nazi-Neo Con same agenda. War, Profit, Population Control. I believe the destruction of America on the hands of our own leaders.

 

[Amraann]

No I don't blame him for his grandfathers actions at all. I think he and his father work for the same global elite that his grandfather did. Neo Nazi-Neo Con same agenda. War, Profit, Population Control. I believe the destruction of America on the hands of our own leaders.

I believe we have a Political Forum ....

 

[Boyzmomee]

You still make me sick.....try reading something other than Mein Kampf sometime and you may understand a little history.

Cal

Good advice.

 

[gman20001969]

i'm sure everyone is going to hate me for saying this, but one day, we in the future, we will be reading articles like this about our own soldiers, who say they were just following orders.

I have a problem with this post and it took me a while to put it to words. But basically you are saying that our soldiers over there are doing the same thing that Nazi's did. If they are, it's one hell of a cover-up story. I mean, where are the slaughters of innocents occuring? On top of that, the oppressed Iraqis people seemed to have learned to fight back with your snipers, road bombs and suicide bombers...

Now, to speak without trying to be funny. I'm saddened about what happend at the Prison of Guantalamo, but that is not the norm for soldiers of our great land. The large majority of our men and women have a code of honor that was passed down not by the corps, but by thier upbringing. In essence, you have insulted Americans and called us ruthless thugs.

 

[Nova]

I have a problem with this post and it took me a while to put it to words. But basically you are saying that our soldiers over there are doing the same thing that Nazi's did. If they are, it's one hell of a cover-up story. I mean, where are the slaughters of innocents occuring? On top of that, the oppressed Iraqis people seemed to have learned to fight back with your snipers, road bombs and suicide bombers...

Now, to speak without trying to be funny. I'm saddened about what happend at the Prison of Guantalamo, but that is not the norm for soldiers of our great land. The large majority of our men and women have a code of honor that was passed down not by the corps, but by thier upbringing. In essence, you have insulted Americans and called us ruthless thugs.

gman, lightwaveryder said quite clearly in his/her original post that the atrocities of which she spoke were the work of a "select few."

"Where are the slaughter of innocents occurring"? There were convictions of soldiers just a couple of weeks ago. There are additional incidents still under investigation.

Nobody has said these are typical, nor has anybody said U.S. forces have a deliberate program of genocide that can be compared to the near extinction of Jews in Central Europe in the 1940s.

But the fact that many Americans seem unaware of the terrible things that have happened in Iraq may be why lightwaveryder felt the need to make her post.

 

[calus_3]

I have a problem with this post and it took me a while to put it to words. But basically you are saying that our soldiers over there are doing the same thing that Nazi's did. If they are, it's one hell of a cover-up story. I mean, where are the slaughters of innocents occuring? On top of that, the oppressed Iraqis people seemed to have learned to fight back with your snipers, road bombs and suicide bombers...

Now, to speak without trying to be funny. I'm saddened about what happend at the Prison of Guantalamo, but that is not the norm for soldiers of our great land. The large majority of our men and women have a code of honor that was passed down not by the corps, but by thier upbringing. In essence, you have insulted Americans and called us ruthless thugs.

Clearly someone who hasn't read a history book and doesn't know what the hell she/he is talking about. Perhaps a course in history of exactly what the Nazi soldiers did, on their own and at order, would be due. If so, the true spiteful nature of their post would show up.

Cal

 

[Nova]

Clearly someone who hasn't read a history book and doesn't know what the hell she/he is talking about. Perhaps a course in history of exactly what the Nazi soldiers did, on their own and at order, would be due. If so, the true spiteful nature of their post would show up.

Cal

Since you are so quick to condemn what you call a lack of erudition in others, perhaps you should demonstrate a little of your own.

To date, there's no evidence you even read your own posts. In a recent one in the PP, you brag that one of Bush's accomplishments during his term of office is having killed over "100,000 Muslims." Such a body count is hardly in Hitler's league, but it--and the fact that you and others crow about it--might have something to do with why much of the world is making comparisons.

 

[calus_3]

Since you are so quick to condemn what you call a lack of erudition in others, perhaps you should demonstrate a little of your own.

To date, there's no evidence you even read your own posts. In a recent one in the PP, you brag that one of Bush's accomplishments during his term of office is having killed over "100,000 Muslims." Such a body count is hardly in Hitler's league, but it--and the fact that you and others crow about it--might have something to do with why much of the world is making comparisons.

Aha, even further evidence of your nonsense and lack of education.

The Jews did not declare war on the Nazis. The Jews didn't walk into Nazi pizza parlors and blow themselves and 50 'innocent' Nazi women and children up. The Jews didn't fly four planes filled with innocent passengers into three buildings filled with innocent men and women and a field in PA.

On the other hand, the Muslims have declared war on the West in a fatwa. They have killed thousands of innocent men, women, and children.

So your comparison of innocent Jews to muslim terrorists....doesn't pan out. The Jews did nothing to the nazi's to deserve their wrath, other than the mere fact they existed. The muslims have done a plenty to deserve mine and that of my Country.

Cal

 

[Nova]

Aha, even further evidence of your nonsense and lack of education.

The Jews did not declare war on the Nazis. The Jews didn't walk into Nazi pizza parlors and blow themselves and 50 'innocent' Nazi women and children up. The Jews didn't fly four planes filled with innocent passengers into three buildings filled with innocent men and women and a field in PA.

On the other hand, the Muslims have declared war on the West in a fatwa. They have killed thousands of innocent men, women, and children.

So your comparison of innocent Jews to muslim terrorists....doesn't pan out. The Jews did nothing to the nazi's to deserve their wrath, other than the mere fact they existed. The muslims have done a plenty to deserve mine and that of my Country.

Cal

Again, there's that reading comprehension problem of yours.

I never compared Jews to terrorists.

Iraqis were not involved in the 9/11 attacks. If you could read, you could turn off Faux News and you would know that.

Muslims cannot and do not "declare war" as a group. They have no legal mechanism to do so and, even if they did, they don't all agree and they don't all recognize the same religious authorities. (Which is why there is conflict between Shia and Sunni.) Do you even know what a fatwa is?

Most importantly, nobody who can read beyond a first-grade level claims that all the 100,000 Muslims (your figure) killed were terrorists.