Henry Lee's comment on the Touch DNA

[BBB167893]

Hmm...

Your RDI says that JR was abusing JBR.

Someone was. I just happen to think it was JR because of a number of factors. So, yes.

She started to talk, so PR lost it and accidentally killed her.

Either that, or she was so angered by the "lies" that she flipped out, struck her, then realized what had happened. Either way, it was not an intentional killing. I happen to lean toward the former. So, in short, yes.

Then, to cover up chronic abuse, PR and JR staged a kidnap for ransom turned sexual assault and strangulation murder. Is this right?

Yes, essentially. I happen to think there were other reasons too, but that was the big one, for me.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Then, to cover up chronic abuse, PR and JR staged a kidnap for ransom turned sexual assault and strangulation murder. Is this right? .

Yes, essentially. I happen to think there were other reasons too, but that was the big one, for me.

Uh, other reasons for what? For staging?

 

[BBB167893]

Uh, other reasons for what? For staging?

That's right, for staging.

I probably should not have mentioned that just now. Let's keep going.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

That's right, for staging.

I probably should not have mentioned that just now. Let's keep going.

How effective do you think the staging was?

 

[BBB167893]

How effective do you think the staging was?

Not very.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Hmm...

Your RDI says that JR was abusing JBR. She started to talk, so PR lost it and accidentally killed her. Then, to cover up chronic abuse, PR and JR staged a kidnap for ransom turned sexual assault and strangulation murder. Is this right?

How effective do you think the staging was?

Not very.

Basically, then, you think the R's found themselves in a position of having accidentally caused a fatal blow to JBR's head, and that they became worried that after an investigation, chronic sexual abuse would've been uncovered. Is that right?

 

[BBB167893]

Basically, then, you think the R's found themselves in a position of having accidentally caused a fatal blow to JBR's head, and that they became worried that after an investigation, chronic sexual abuse would've been uncovered. Is that right?

Yes, that is essentially right. (minor nuances aside)

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Yes, that is essentially right. (minor nuances aside)

Lets then look at the evidence and see if there is anything that would rule this theory out. Your theory would require that the items listed as staging would've been applied to JBR after she was already dead. Is this right?

The wrist ligature was not known to be used on JBR while she was alive. Same with the tape. They could be staging.

I'm not an expert on the sexual assault. I thought the assault was known to have been done on JBR while she was alive. Experts should know if her injuries in this regard were post-mortem. Maybe she had injury a dead person wouldn't have had. Help me out here.

I think the garrote being used on JBR while she was alive needs to be explained as to how it fits your theory. You believe it was staging, but I'm sure the evidence shows she was still alive when it was applied. Can you explain this?

 

[BBB167893]

Lets then look at the evidence and see if there is anything that would rule this theory out. Your theory would require that the items listed as staging would've been applied to JBR after she was already dead. Is this right?

Not exactly. Some, but not all. That is a common misperception.

The wrist ligature was not known to be used on JBR while she was alive.

Not alive in any true sense, anyway.

Same with the tape. They could be staging.

Right.

I'm not an expert on the sexual assault. I thought the assault was known to have been done on JBR while she was alive. Experts should know if her injuries in this regard were post-mortem. Maybe she had injury a dead person wouldn't have had. Help me out here.

The sexual assault did have the markings of having been done while she was alive, yes. But what you leave out is she could have been technically alive but very close to death. That's what I think happened.

I think the garrote being used on JBR while she was alive needs to be explained as to how it fits your theory.

Okay.

You believe it was staging, but I'm sure the evidence shows she was still alive when it was applied. Can you explain this?

Yes, I believe I can. JB was alive in the most technical sense of the word, but was very close to death when the ligature was applied. So close, in fact, that she would have easily and convincingly appeared dead to a layperson. That's my take on it.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

You believe it was staging, but I'm sure the evidence shows she was still alive when it was applied. Can you explain this?

Yes, I believe I can. JB was alive in the most technical sense of the word, but was very close to death when the ligature was applied. So close, in fact, that she would have easily and convincingly appeared dead to a layperson. That's my take on it.

Your explanation is that the R's, together, mistook JBR for dead when they applied the garrote and 2nd ligature? Is this how to account for the garrote as staging, when the evidence shows her to be alive at the time?

 

[Tadpole12]

Either that, or she was so angered by the "lies" that she flipped out, struck her, then realized what had happened. - SD

Boy, the rage theory .....that's a whole different animal within the PRDI theorieis. SD?...that would be a deady blow, one really angry blow that PR would have had to inflict on her daughter. Would it? Would it not have required great force?

Basically, then, you think the R's found themselves in a position of having accidentally caused a fatal blow to JBR's head, and that they became worried that after an investigation, chronic sexual abuse would've been uncovered. Is that right? - HOTYH

I guess it's just hard for me to imagine that whatever JBR might have said to her mother regarding abuse would illicit such rage. on Christmas night? Not to say that the PR rage theory isn't plausible, add to that end the 'random' 911 call and you could easily speculate premeditation.

Hmmm, more to contemplate. Ty at SD & HOTYH.

 

[DeeDee249]

Whoever bashed JBR in the head- for whatever reason, yes it was a crushing blow- it knocked out a section of her skull. It was much more than a skull fracture. It didn't happen from a fall, even onto a tile floor, because that would not have punched out a hole in her skull, though it might have fractured it. That hole was made in one of two ways - she was hit on the head deliberately, possibly to silence her, or she was forcefully slammed against a faucet, doorknob, or the edge of a hard surface like a tub or sink.
I believe it was the flashlight - the most glaring reason is the fact that the BATTERIES were wiped down, not just the flashlight. I would expect the flashlight to be wiped down by either an intruder OR the parents. But the batteries....only someone who belonged in the home would wipe those down. While the Rs prints would be expected to be on them (who else would put them in?), their absence is a strong indication of guilt. The parents prints would also be expected to be on the flashlight- but the fact that it was wiped puts the flashlight into the crime, most likely as weapon. There was no other reason to wipe it, whether it was wiped by the parents or an intruder- it belonged to the house and belonged to the family. By wiping the batteries, the parents try to sever any link to the flashlight. They distance themselves to it just as they distance themselves to the pineapple.

 

[Chrishope]

As SD pointed out, not all RDIs are of the same mind on all aspects of the case. I tend to doubt the rage theory.

If the head injury was from an accident, then any normal parent would have called 911. You can say that JR wanted to stage the scene to make it look like an intruder, to cover for his prior sexual abuse? But why would PR go along with this if she didn't know about the prior abuse? She'd want to call 911.

As DeeDee points out the skull fracture wasn't caused by a fall. One or both Rs killed her, and they both staged various elements of the scene.

 

[BBB167893]

Your explanation is that the R's, together, mistook JBR for dead when they applied the garrote and 2nd ligature? Is this how to account for the garrote as staging, when the evidence shows her to be alive at the time?

That's right, Holdon. (Not only my explanation.)

 

[BBB167893]

Either that, or she was so angered by the "lies" that she flipped out, struck her, then realized what had happened. - SD

Boy, the rage theory .....that's a whole different animal within the PRDI theories. SD?...that would be a deady blow, one really angry blow that PR would have had to inflict on her daughter. Would it? Would it not have required great force?

Well, Tadpole12, anger can make a person exceptionally strong. Not to mention that it was a child's skull, not fully formed yet.

Basically, then, you think the R's found themselves in a position of having accidentally caused a fatal blow to JBR's head, and that they became worried that after an investigation, chronic sexual abuse would've been uncovered. Is that right? - HOTYH

I guess it's just hard for me to imagine that whatever JBR might have said to her mother regarding abuse would illicit such rage. on Christmas night? Not to say that the PR rage theory isn't plausible, add to that end the 'random' 911 call and you could easily speculate premeditation.

Hmmm, more to contemplate. Ty at SD & HOTYH.

Well, Holdon can give his own answer when he's ready. But as for me, Tadpole, one of the people who has been most helpful to me in this case is named Marilyn Van Derbur. She's a former Ms America from Denver. She was sexually abused by her father. And when she told her mother, she was punished for telling such "filthy lies." So, as hard as it may be for you to imagine, Marilyn doesn't have to imagine it; she lived it. And I have speculated premeditation. Not lately, though. Hmm...

 

[Ames]

Well, Tadpole12, anger can make a person exceptionally strong. Not to mention that it was a child's skull, not fully formed yet.

<<SNIPPED>>

That's right SD, the Ramsey's and their SPIN team want everybody to believe that it would have taken alot of force, from a big man...to have caused that blow and that injury. And there are alot of other people that buy into that BS. A child can crack their skull from falling from a bike...just inches from the ground. I did research on this, and found a baby that had fallen ONTO HIS RATTLE while sitting in his playpen..and it cracked his skull. NO..it doesn't take much, for that to happen. I know that bone in JB's skull had actually been displaced...still...it doesn't take much of a blow for that to happen in a child's skull....much softer and thinner than an adults.

 

[BBB167893]

That's right SD, the Ramsey's and their SPIN team want everybody to believe that it would have taken alot of force, from a big man...to have caused that blow and that injury. And there are alot of other people that buy into that BS. A child can crack their skull from falling from a bike...just inches from the ground. I did research on this, and found a baby that had fallen ONTO HIS RATTLE while sitting in his playpen..and it cracked his skull. NO..it doesn't take much, for that to happen. I know that bone in JB's skull had actually been displaced...still...it doesn't take much of a blow for that to happen in a child's skull....much softer and thinner than an adults.

Much obliged.

 

[weasel]

<<that's hardly a ringing endorsement>>

Coming from Lee, nothing is a ringing endorsement. I have to agree with the poster who stated Lee lost his credibility during the Spector case .... actually I believe it was during the first OJ case. Lee's opinion seems to roll with the bidding.