Henry Lee's comment on the Touch DNA

  • #181
Page 124 - Paragraph 5-

"We reported on the preliminary FBI determinations. The FBI had been given a chance to look at the note and determined that it was written in the comfort of the home and probably after the killing, not before. The crime scene reflected careful staging, they said, A CRIMINALLY UNSOPHISTICATED KILLER attempting to cover-up what had happened."
 
  • #182
Can't get more vague than that, Ames. To stage a crime scene of what? A murder or a kidnapping? A murder and a kidnapping? An attempted kidnapping?

Oh good GRIEF Holdon....

Let me go through this YET again.....now pay attention this time, okay?
Okay, after JB died....her parents had to think of a way to keep their butts out of jail, you know they had another child to think about, and to raise...and besides, how would them going to jail look to all of their friends? The tape on the mouth is all part of their intruder/kidnapping/killer plan, it was placed there (even though it was NOT sticky) to make it look as though an intruder/kidnapper/killer had put it there to keep her quiet.
 
  • #183
Are you kidding? We've said for years that the duct tape was part of the staging.

Right, for YEARS we have said that the unsticky duct tape was part of the staging. Like some intruder is going to come into the Ramsey home, so unprepared that he brings a piece of duct tape that he took off of something at his home, to bring with him. :rolleyes: A real intruder would have been way more prepared than that.
 
  • #184
Can you list one LE, FBI, etc., that said this was staging of 'a kidnapping gone bad,

Yep. The CASKU professionals also stated, according to Thomas, that the ligatures "indicated staging rather than control, and the garrote was used from behind so the killer could avoid eye contact, typical of someone who cares for the victim." Thomas said the profilers had the gut feeling that "no one intended to kill the child."

PMPT, page 306, pb:

"The duct tape too was probably used as part of a cover-up, along with the loosely tied cord found around JonBenet's right wrist. Skin trauma would be evident if she had been alive when the tape was applied. Coroner Meyer found no trauma to the skin around JonBenet's mouth."

Page 307, pb:

"To give credibility to a bogus kidnapping, the offender had to make the police believe that JonBenet had been restrained and silenced. That was called staging within staging."

Now, if you want specifics, some of the FBI agents who made these observations were Bill Hagmaier, Mike Morrow, Larry Ankrom, and Gregory Bishea.

I could list some more, but in a more general sense. Let's keep to specifics for now.

Or was it enough for you that LE just called it 'staging' without any elaboration?

Without any elaboration? Are you kidding? PMPT pages 306-308 and 496-500 contain PLENTY of elaboration. It will take a while to go through all of it. Are you up for that?

And if you were familiar with my history, you'd know it's not enough to just say something. Didn't I just say, "It's not enough to just say, "oh, this was staged," and be done with it; not by a long shot."?
 
  • #185
Page 307, pb:

"To give credibility to a bogus kidnapping, the offender had to make the police believe that JonBenet had been restrained and silenced. That was called staging within staging."

It seems then that the whole RDI case relies heavily on staging, specifically staging 'a kidnapping gone bad' (your own words, which are actually less vague than 'bogus kidnapping').

Would you say that the RN, garrote, 2nd ligature, and tape were all used in the staging of 'a kidnapping gone bad'? Do you think they were used exclusively for staging, or were some items used for another purpose?
 
  • #186
PLENTY of elaboration. It will take a while to go through all of it. Are you up for that? -SD

Hi SD and HOTYH. Really enjoying your recent discourse.

SD, you're on the ball. It may be rehash but your 'refreshers' on the case are a great read. Lots to consider with HOTYH reminders of source.

Elaborations would be appreciated.
 
  • #187
To stage a crime scene of what? A murder or a kidnapping? A murder and a kidnapping? An attempted kidnapping?
It's simple.To stage something that appears to be something so awful,a parent couldn't have done it.
If you wanted someone to believe you didn't do something,wouldn't you attempt to manipulate the scene,so it appears you couldn't have done it? but yet..you did!
 
  • #188
As a prop for what? A murder? RDI thinks they can have everything. They've got props for murder, props for kidnapping, and 'everything thrown in but the kitchen sink' which is really just a wildcard excuse for being unable to explain crime scene phenomenon.

Again I ask, what was the tape a prop for???
don't be silly.really.it was a feeble attempt to make it appear a KN used it to keep her quiet.truth is it wouldn't have kept a mouse quiet.
 
  • #189
don't be silly.really.it was a feeble attempt to make it appear a KN used it to keep her quiet.truth is it wouldn't have kept a mouse quiet.

OK, inept. The RN attempt at sounding realistically criminal was inept. The 2nd ligature's ability to restrain anybody was inept. Having to hold the garrote high over one's head to get it to do anything was inept. AND the tape was inept.


Don't mince words. Are you saying that you believe the R's were inept when it came to covering up a child murder? And that their lack of knowledge of what 'a real criminal would do' permeates the crime scene?
 
  • #190
It seems then that the whole RDI case relies heavily on staging, specifically staging 'a kidnapping gone bad' (your own words, which are actually less vague than 'bogus kidnapping').

Actually, they're not just my words.

Would you say that the RN, garrote, 2nd ligature, and tape were all used in the staging of 'a kidnapping gone bad'?

Yes, I would.

Do you think they were used exclusively for staging, or were some items used for another purpose?

How do you mean? Not to seem dense or anything.
 
  • #191
PLENTY of elaboration. It will take a while to go through all of it. Are you up for that? -SD

Hi SD and HOTYH. Really enjoying your recent discourse.

SD, you're on the ball. It may be rehash but your 'refreshers' on the case are a great read. Lots to consider with HOTYH reminders of source.

Elaborations would be appreciated.

I do my best. I'm sure HOYTH does, as well.

Okay, on to due business. Elaboration you want, elaboration I give:

Starting with the injuries to JonBenet's vagina. I don't mean the possibility (probability, IMO) of prior abuse (that's another story); we'll keep it to that night. JonBenet was assaulted vaginally the night she was killed. This is referred to as "acute" injury. There is debate over what caused it exactly. Pieces of wood and paint from the handle of the paintbrush suggest that it was jammed into her. A lot of experts think that is what happened, but not everyone agrees. Some think it was a finger or like object. Leaving aside (for now) the direct cause, let's take a look at the context.

The CASKU agents of the FBI examined this finding. From PMPT, page 306, pb:

"The sexual assault of JonBenet did not appear to have been committed for the perpetrator's gratification. The penetration, which caused minor genital trauma, was more likely part of a staged crime scene, intended to mislead the police."

I'd like you to first focus on that one part: "Minor genital trauma." MINOR. Many of the elements of JonBenet's body--the cords, the tape, the strangling cord, the genital assault--seem to suggest a pedophile pervert killer with strong dominance/sadistic-control impulses. Trouble is, that scenario is completely inconsistent with several things: number one, pedophiles do NOT leave ransom notes. As Det. Thomas writes in his book, CASKU was VERY clear about that. Number two, as I said, the vaginal damage was only minor. A REAL sadistic-control pedophile would have torn her little bottom to absolute shreds! That was a big part of CASKU's findings: they hunt pedophiles for a living. You think they don't have a list of things they expect to find? I'm willing to bet they do.

I already posted their findings on the duct tape over the mouth.

Then there's the note itself. PMPT, page 307, pb:

"The moment JonBenet died and her body was left in a place where it would be found, the ransom money was lost forever to the kidnapper. If it was a real abduction gone sour (HMM! Isn't that another way of saying "kidnapping gone bad?"), why leave the note? The only reasonable conclusion was the the note had been left behind in an attempt to hide the killer's identity and the real reason for JonBenet's death."

Later:

"If the killer was a stranger, why did he wrap JonBenet's body in a blanket? Why try to comfort someone who was no longer of use?"

And:

"The noose's elevation at every point around the neck was equal in distance from the shoulders, indicating it had not been tied during a struggle."

Later in 1997, the FBI met with several police officers and reps from thr DA's office in Quantico, VA.

PMPT pages 496-500, pb:

"By now the Bureau's CASKU was quite certain that JonBenet's killer had never committed murder before. The experts thought that the ransom note was written by someone intelligent but not criminally sophisticated. Someone who had planned a kidnapping in advance would have tried to impress with how great a threat they posed. In the note, the kidnappers called themselves a "small foreignfaction." Foreign to whom? From whose point of view were they writing? Real foreigners would not refer to themselves as foreign."

"Nothing seemed to come from outside the house. They believed the the duct tape and cord from thr ligature had most likely been purchased by Patsy Ramsey sometime in December. There was no evidence anyone had turned on any lights during the crime, trying to find their way around an unfamiliar house. One agent said: Is this an offender who came to the scene tottaly unprepared to do anything? Kidnappers are usually in and out in a heartbeat. Look at the Polly Klaas case."

"To the FBI profilers, the time spent staging the crime scene and hiding the body pointed to a killer who had asked, 'how do I explain this?' and had answered: "A stranger did it." The staging suggested a killer desperate to divert attention."

"Moreover, there was staging within staging: The loop of cord around one wrist was not a real indication that JonBenet had been restrained. The ligature that had suffocated JonBenet--though she would have died from the head injury--was in their opinion, a cover-up attempt. The way the cord had been made into a noose--with the stick tied 17 inches from the knot--suggested staging rather than a bona fide attempt to strangle JonBenet. It suggested that the killer was a manipulative person with the courage to believe that he or she could control the subsequent investigation. In short, everything about the crime indicated an attempt at self-preservation."

"On the other hand, the killer cared about JonBenet and wanted her found. He or she didn't want JonBenet outside in the dead of winter in the middle of the night. The child had been wrapped in a white blanket, her Barbie nightgown found lying next to her. Such caring and solicitude were not usually associated with a malevolent criminal."

Thomas wrote that the FBI team said the crime "did not fit an act of sex or revenge or one in which money was the motivation. Taken alone, they said, each piece of evidence might be argued, but together, enough pebbles become a block of evidentiary granite." The FBI, according to Thomas, "believed that the note was written in the house, after the murder, and indicated panic.
Thomas said the FBI deemed the entire crime "criminally unsophisticated," citing the child being left on the premises, the oddness of the $118,000 demand in relation to the multi-million dollar net worth of the Ramseys, and the concept of a ransom delivery where one would be "scanned for electronic devices." Kidnappers prefer isolated drops for the ransom delivery, not wanting to chance a face-to-face meeting. CASKU profilers also observed that placing JonBenet's body in the basement indicated the involvement of a parent, rather than an intruder. A parent would not want to place the body outside in the frigid night.
The CASKU professionals also stated, according to Thomas, that the ligatures "indicated staging rather than control, and the garrote was used from behind so the killer could avoid eye contact, typical of someone who cares for the victim."

WHEW!
 
  • #192
How do you mean? Not to seem dense or anything.



What else was the paintbrush used for besides staging? Was it used for painting? Was it used to actually kill JBR? What purpose did breaking the ends off have? Was breaking the ends off part of the crime or done for some other purpose?

What else was the cord from the garrote used for besides staging? Was it used as a painting sling? Was it used with the garrote to actually kill JBR?

What else was the tape used for? Wrapping a painting? Actually keeping JBR quiet?
 
  • #193
What else was the paintbrush used for besides staging? Was it used for painting?

It may have been. I understand there were splotches of paint on it. Just what difference does it make, anyway?

Was it used to actually kill JBR?

Inasmuch as it was part of the noose, I'd have to say not with intent. But, it was most likely used to pierce JonBenet's vagina.

What purpose did breaking the ends off have?

Well, assuming it wasn't broken to begin with (Burke was known to whittle wooden objects, after all), breaking the bristle end off would have been almost necessary for its use as a phallic object. By breaking the bristle end off, you could get the proper grip on it in order to violate her as deeply as it did. (I'm going to hell for this, I just know it.)

Was breaking the ends off part of the crime or done for some other purpose?

Again, assuming it wasn't already like that, breaking the bristle end off is, to me, fairly obvious. And, since JB's vagina wasn't shredded, I think it's safe to assume that the stick as seen with two jagged ends was not used for that purpose. So that means it still had the pointed end on it when it went in. If so, then there's a good possibility it was broken off afterwards in order to dispose of it, the reason being to get rid of blood evidence, much as was done when JB was wiped off.

What else was the cord from the garrote used for besides staging? Was it used as a painting sling?

That was a possibility. There's something else, too. One of my favorite pictures of JB is her in the navy sailor suit. Take a look at the white trim on her lapels. Sure LOOKS like the white cord to me. But that's just an educated guess.

Was it used with the garrote to actually kill JBR?

How do you mean? Since the noose was made out of it, I'd have to say yes, but with reservations. You seem to imply intent to kill her. As the police and Werner Spitz have said, it's likely the killer didn't know she was still alive when it was applied.

What else was the tape used for? Wrapping a painting?

Possibility: JB had a certain doll, an American Girl doll. Duct tape is often used to hold the back closed because a white cord protrudes from the back of the neck if you don't. Henry Lee seemed to think the tape on JB had been used, but that may be due to his limited command of English.

Actually keeping JBR quiet?

I do not see how that could have happened, for reasons I have outlined.

I don't mean to seem angry, but what difference does any of this make, anyway?
 
  • #194
OK, inept. The RN attempt at sounding realistically criminal was inept. The 2nd ligature's ability to restrain anybody was inept. Having to hold the garrote high over one's head to get it to do anything was inept. AND the tape was inept.


Don't mince words. Are you saying that you believe the R's were inept when it came to covering up a child murder? And that their lack of knowledge of what 'a real criminal would do' permeates the crime scene?

Oh, I'd REALLY like to take a crack at this one!

I take that back: I'm DYING to answer this one!
 
  • #195
It may have been. I understand there were splotches of paint on it. Just what difference does it make, anyway?



Inasmuch as it was part of the noose, I'd have to say not with intent. But, it was most likely used to pierce JonBenet's vagina.



Well, assuming it wasn't broken to begin with (Burke was known to whittle wooden objects, after all), breaking the bristle end off would have been almost necessary for its use as a phallic object. By breaking the bristle end off, you could get the proper grip on it in order to violate her as deeply as it did. (I'm going to hell for this, I just know it.)



Again, assuming it wasn't already like that, breaking the bristle end off is, to me, fairly obvious. And, since JB's vagina wasn't shredded, I think it's safe to assume that the stick as seen with two jagged ends was not used for that purpose. So that means it still had the pointed end on it when it went in. If so, then there's a good possibility it was broken off afterwards in order to dispose of it, the reason being to get rid of blood evidence, much as was done when JB was wiped off.



That was a possibility. There's something else, too. One of my favorite pictures of JB is her in the navy sailor suit. Take a look at the white trim on her lapels. Sure LOOKS like the white cord to me. But that's just an educated guess.



How do you mean? Since the noose was made out of it, I'd have to say yes, but with reservations. You seem to imply intent to kill her. As the police and Werner Spitz have said, it's likely the killer didn't know she was still alive when it was applied.



Possibility: JB had a certain doll, an American Girl doll. Duct tape is often used to hold the back closed because a white cord protrudes from the back of the neck if you don't. Henry Lee seemed to think the tape on JB had been used, but that may be due to his limited command of English.



I do not see how that could have happened, for reasons I have outlined.

I don't mean to seem angry, but what difference does any of this make, anyway?

I apologize in advance as I respond how I would like to, given your generous opinions & observations.

You were asked what the cord, tape, and paintbrush were used for besides staging. I believe you responded with a high level of uncertainty relating to how the main evidence items were used.

Remember that the RN, cord, tape, and paintbrush, and of course JBR, constitute the main body of evidence in this case. I think that any theory IDI or RDI, that isn't sure about these items and how they were used, doesn't have a leg to stand on.
 
  • #196
Oh good GRIEF Holdon....

Let me go through this YET again.....now pay attention this time, okay?
Okay, after JB died....her parents had to think of a way to keep their butts out of jail, you know they had another child to think about, and to raise...and besides, how would them going to jail look to all of their friends? The tape on the mouth is all part of their intruder/kidnapping/killer plan, it was placed there (even though it was NOT sticky) to make it look as though an intruder/kidnapper/killer had put it there to keep her quiet.

Was it never sticky?

LE would know if it was new tape or used tape, depending on what was on the sticky side. If all you've got on the sticky side is PR fibers, and no doll fibers or paint frame wood fragments, then it was new tape.

Why was new tape no longer sticky?
 
  • #197
I apologize in advance as I respond how I would like to, given your generous opinions & observations.

It's cool.

You were asked what the cord, tape, and paintbrush were used for besides staging.

Yeah, and I still don't see how it figures into it.

I believe you responded with a high level of uncertainty relating to how the main evidence items were used.

I believe you and I are victims of a mutual misunderstanding.

Remember that the RN, cord, tape, and paintbrush, and of course JBR, constitute the main body of evidence in this case. I think that any theory IDI or RDI, that isn't sure about these items and how they were used, doesn't have a leg to stand on.

I thought the posting from PMPT made it quite clear how they were used. That's the issue that matters here.

Again, I don't mean to be dense, but how any of this relate to the question of staging?
 
  • #198
  • #199
I apologize in advance as I respond how I would like to, given your generous opinions & observations.

You were asked what the cord, tape, and paintbrush were used for besides staging. I believe you responded with a high level of uncertainty relating to how the main evidence items were used.

Remember that the RN, cord, tape, and paintbrush, and of course JBR, constitute the main body of evidence in this case. I think that any theory IDI or RDI, that isn't sure about these items and how they were used, doesn't have a leg to stand on.
? I saw no high level of uncertainty in SD's answers.he was quite matter-of-fact and to the point.you can't just blow evidence off like that.
 
  • #200
I'll leave it to you,then. :)

If you insist.

Question:

Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat
OK, inept. The RN attempt at sounding realistically criminal was inept. The 2nd ligature's ability to restrain anybody was inept. Having to hold the garrote high over one's head to get it to do anything was inept. AND the tape was inept.

Check. That sums it up nicely.

Don't mince words. Are you saying that you believe the R's were inept when it came to covering up a child murder?

Check. It's not just JMO8778 and I saying it, either. The FBI's own words: "criminally unsophisticated." Can you think of any reason why they WOULDN'T be inept? I'm completely serious.

And that their lack of knowledge of what 'a real criminal would do' permeates the crime scene?

Double-check. And again, it's not just JMO8778 and myself saying that, not by a long shot. Gregg McCrary I know does: when someone doesn't know what a real criminal would do and what a real crime scene looks like, they go with what they've ssen on TV and read in books. And it shows, like it did here.

I don't believe JMO8778 or anyone else is trying to say they were idiots. The FBI said whoever did this was intelligent and manipulative. But it's one thing to know the form, it's another to know the substance. Intelligence is no substitute for experience.

Let me put it another way: one has to have a healthy respect for the difference between knowledge and wisdom.
 

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