Henry Lee's comment on the Touch DNA

[UKGuy]

Tan fibers along with Patsy's fibers were found on the sticky (or rather NOT so sticky) side of the tape, it was NOT new tape. The tan fibers were thought to have been from one of JB's American Girl Dolls. (A new doll was ordered AFTER JB's death, and sent to John's office). Things that make you go hmmmmm.


"Two years later it was published she (Pam) had removed several dolls from the American Girls Collection. The dolls are 18" tall with a head and limbs of vinyl and a tan cotton body. The head is attached to the body with a string that is tied leaving a few inches dangling down the back. The cord can get in the way when the hair is brushed. In 1998 the company did train employees to suggest duct taping the string down as one of many ways to deal with the problem. The size of the tape from JonBenet matches if it had been on a doll. It was coated with tan cotton fibers descriptively matching the body of the doll.
One of the dolls, Molly, comes in an outfit of navy wool that visibly sheds, another descriptive match to fibers associated with the crime and the killer. The Kirsten doll has a black wool skirt that can be ordered seperate. A 'replacement' doll was delivered by UPS to John Ramsey's office within days of the funeral. It was paid for blindly with a money order. Why did the Ramseys specifically ask for those dolls to be removed? JonBenet only had them a few months. She had received a Samantha doll in August and Nedra purchased another in September."

Ames,
When was the order placed though, after JonBenet's death or before? The replacement doll reminds me of the size-12's being returned, or were they a replacement too?


.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Yep, now that one looks like cord to me too.

They are two different types. One is rectangular shoelace , and the other is cylindrical piping. You can tell that just from the jpegs.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

That's why I don't just stop there.

How can you proceed? You can't make them facts unless you have new information. Given the information that is currently available, the abuse and the staging are 'theories' not 'facts'.

 

[Ames]

Ames,
When was the order placed though, after JonBenet's death or before? The replacement doll reminds me of the size-12's being returned, or were they a replacement too?


.

I do not know, there is a big thread about this on FFJ, and an article. I will try and find it.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay, guys..this is what I found on FFJ, from none other than Tricia Griffith herself....it was ordered on Jan. 1, 1997

Who Ordered an American Girl Doll, in the Name of JonBenet, on Januay 1st 1997 and had it Delivered to Access Graphics?


You all know the wonderful Jahazafat. Jahazafat, for years, has been screaming into the wind about the dolls, the fibers and the special order in JBR’s name in 1997. In fact Jahazafat has a website with some of the information. http://www.geocities.com/pinker44/
The problem I had with Jahazafat was not her story but how she came about the information. She didn’t have a reason to lie yet there was no source. I didn’t know what to do with her story.

Until now.

First, I want to thank Peggy (Little) for this information. It was posted first on Crime and Justice. I am grateful Peggy brought it to my attention.
http://pub165.ezboard.com/fcrimeandjustice13552frm78
Jahazafat worked for Pleasant Company. She saw the order in JonBenet’s name and where the doll was delivered to. Access Graphics. Jahazafat told me later that the order was paid for with a money order or cashiers check. No credit card trail.
Below is the email I received from Jahazafat concerning the dolls and the tape. Bold is mine.
`````````````````````````````````````````````````` `
I worked for Pleasant Company, owned by Mattel, which sells American Girl Dolls, from October 1998 to January 2004. I worked at a call center in Wilmot, Wisconsin. I worked as a variable order processor, which means I worked seasonally. The job was taking credit card phone orders for products and putting them into a computer system. It also involved fielding customer service issues and processing requests to mail the catalogue.
I read this in Perfect Murder, Perfect Town the last week of September 1999. "The day before, one of Patsy Ramsey's sisters had gone into the house with police permission and taken out an oil painting, several American Girl dolls, a portfolio of JonBenet's pageant photographs…”. I first thought it a testament to the wonderful products that the dolls were so special to be removed. But when I got to the end of the book there was a list that mentioned the duct tape had to be from ‘outside the house’. I had specific training that if a customer called in and complained about the cord attaching the head to tell them to duct tape it down. It could also be tucked in the clothing or sewn, but never cut, and for safety reasons, never pinned. The duct tape was presented as proof of an intruder but the dolls have a verifiable connection to duct tape and the Ramseys were allowed to remove them from the crime scene.
I did simple experiments with duct tape on a doll. If you tape the string down when you pull the tape off there remains a visible residue and it pulls out the white polyester stuffing, which sticks to the tape and makes it not sticky. Somewhere I read a reference to white fibers on the tape but have never been able to relocate those one or two lines. It’s likely these white fibers were the cause of the Santa Bear fiasco. The duct tape information upset me tremendously. I spoke to my father, an attorney, and he called Hunter’s office. He spoke with Leslie Aaholm. This was literally days before the GJ disbanded. I followed up the phone call with letters to Kane and Owens. From reading about Hunter’s office, he couldn’t be trusted 100% so as supportive back up, I called and wrote Craig Lewis. The GJ made no decision but Owens went on TV a few days later talking about ‘new evidence’ and Henry Lee had come to town. It was encouraging but nothing more happened.
I bought a PC out of frustration early in 2000 to follow the case online. I read more about the evidence and in particular ‘mysterious’ fibers found on the body and clothing. Sometimes they were listed as blue and sometimes they were dark. I looked at a Molly doll in a display case and gathered at her feet were thousands of navy blue wool fibers that had shed from her skirt. As with the duct tape, there was an eerie connection.
In September 1999 a computer search with the Ramsey’s Boulder address revealed a catalogue sent to JonBenet in 1996. A separate search had shown an order for a Samantha doll sent to Patsy in Charlevoix in July 1996. Computer searches are done with zip code and last name. In the spring of 2000 I searched and found an order listed as ordered by and shipped to JonBenet herself on Pearl Street, January 1, 1997. I about fell off my seat. I never saw the paper order, only computer documentation. Mail orders are processed in Middleton, WI for speed in delivery as that is were they are received. It also was years before and paper copies are shredded within two weeks of processing. A search with Nedra’s name and zip showed an order from early September 1996. Nedra’s computer file has the misspelling of Nedba. I could go on with pages of information about the orders and the computer systems but it's very technical.
As with the duct tape information, I wrote letters to Kane, Owens, and Lewis with info about the dark fibers and the doll sent to Access Graphics. I also emailed the Boulder Police department. and Chuck Green. There was never anything other than computer generated receipt confirmations; I think those came from Owens. This was spring 2000. I waited years before I posted much online. I held out hope that it would be investigated. A year or two later Smit came out with information about tan cotton fibers, which only cemented the doll connection, as the torso is tan cotton. This revelation had me again writing and emailing to the same list and then some. I have shared; written, called, or emailed this story to hundreds of people. Anytime the Ramseys appear on TV, I rebut with my story. Anytime I read of another Ramsey lawsuit I contact the defendants. I have not been silent but oddly, I have never been asked a single question either.
About using duct tapes on the dolls, employees don’t all receive the exact same training. Training sessions are small-unscripted affairs. It may have just been an off the cuff remark. I asked a few fellow workers and none related any duct tape training. It is not even a huge issue and in the course of my employment I only received a handful of calls about that cord. My father though did call and after several tries got the recommendation to use duct tape. I know the person I heard it from was trained by Middleton, not Wilmot which may account for the discrepancy.
I never felt comfortable speaking up when I was employed, as it is a sensitive issue. The products are for young girls and association with a crime is less than ideal. I have friends who support families based on the success of the company. But if I look at the larger picture the information needs to be available so other law enforcement agencies can learn from what went so drastically wrong. If it is used to prevent a single crime against a child it’s worth it.
```````````````````````````````````````````
More to come. Very tired.

Thank you Jahazafat for coming forward. You done good woman

 

[Ames]

They are two different types. One is rectangular shoelace , and the other is cylindrical piping. You can tell that just from the jpegs.

Yeah, I see it.

 

[BBB167893]

How can you proceed? You can't make them facts unless you have new information. Given the information that is currently available, the abuse and the staging are 'theories' not 'facts'.

It's not like the information isn't out there. I go to great lengths to make it available.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

It's not like the information isn't out there. I go to great lengths to make it available.

The information that converts abuse and staging from claim to fact ISN'T out there. The only fact in this conversation is that staging and abuse are theories, not facts.

 

[Ames]

The information that converts abuse and staging from claim to fact ISN'T out there. The only fact in this conversation is that staging and abuse are theories, not facts.

Holdon, I hate to tell you this...but, the intruder scenario is just a theory too. There is way more evidence that points to the parents, than that of an intruder.

 

[BBB167893]

The information that converts abuse and staging from claim to fact ISN'T out there. The only fact in this conversation is that staging and abuse are theories, not facts.

It's ALL theory! I knew that coming in two+ years ago! I supply the facts that allow us to develop our theories, or at least I do my best.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Holdon, I hate to tell you this...but, the intruder scenario is just a theory too. There is way more evidence that points to the parents, than that of an intruder.

Congrats, you're right on both.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

It's ALL theory! I knew that coming in two+ years ago! I supply the facts that allow us to develop our theories, or at least I do my best.

And I separate what is presented as fact or implied to be fact from fiction and theory.

 

[BBB167893]

And I separate what is presented as fact or implied to be fact from fiction and theory.

That suits me just fine. I do my best to do the same. That doesn't mean I don't have strong feelings.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

No, I realize that...just thought it was odd that a new AG doll was ordered AFTER JB's death and sent to John's office. My whole point was...that the tape was used on something else before...whatever it was...it made the tape UNsticky.

JBR was found with duct tape covering her mouth, that much seems undisputed. That fact on its own would initially lead to the conclusion that someone wanted her to be quiet.

How the duct tape became unsticky, if it really was unsticky, depends on your POV. This IDI believes an intruder brought black duct tape with them, and used it on JBR. If it became unsticky, it would have to be not too sticky to begin with, or it was removed and reapplied, or it became unsticky over time with moisture or heat or whatever.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

It's ALL theory! I knew that coming in two+ years ago! I supply the facts that allow us to develop our theories, or at least I do my best.

You have supplied facts, its true. You posted that JR was on the right, a Republican. I'd be interested in some facts, thats for sure, maybe you'll help:

Where were the phones located in the R's house?
What was the source of the pineapple?
Is the stairs where the RN was found on the most direct path from JBR's bedroom to the basement?
How credible was the scream witness? Was there more than one witness to the scream?

 

[Chrishope]

You have supplied facts, its true. You posted that JR was on the right, a Republican. I'd be interested in some facts, thats for sure, maybe you'll help:

Where were the phones located in the R's house?
What was the source of the pineapple?
Is the stairs where the RN was found on the most direct path from JBR's bedroom to the basement?
How credible was the scream witness? Was there more than one witness to the scream?

Here's the floor plan of the Ramsey home.

http://extras.denverpost.com/news/jonhouse1016.htm

 

[UKGuy]

JBR was found with duct tape covering her mouth, that much seems undisputed. That fact on its own would initially lead to the conclusion that someone wanted her to be quiet.

How the duct tape became unsticky, if it really was unsticky, depends on your POV. This IDI believes an intruder brought black duct tape with them, and used it on JBR. If it became unsticky, it would have to be not too sticky to begin with, or it was removed and reapplied, or it became unsticky over time with moisture or heat or whatever.

Holdontoyourhat,

JBR was found with duct tape covering her mouth, that much seems undisputed.

You should really stop playing semantic games, and get some sleep. Also an undisputed fact is that fibers from Patricia Ramsey were discovered on the sticky underside of the duct tape.

This IDI believes an intruder brought black duct tape with them, and used it on JBR.

You can believe whatever you want but the empirical evidence suggests it was white or silver in appearance on one side.

That fact on its own would initially lead to the conclusion that someone wanted her to be quiet.

One of the reasons few posters take you seriously is your disregard or misuse of logic. Your initial inference may be correct but you omit another conclusion that the assumed fact may have been fabricated for your delectation alone.


.

 

[Ames]

Congrats, you're right on both.

Okay, I don't get it. You are agreeing with me that there is more evidence that points to that of the parents doing it, instead of an intruder ?

 

[Ames]

JBR was found with duct tape covering her mouth, that much seems undisputed. That fact on its own would initially lead to the conclusion that someone wanted her to be quiet.

How the duct tape became unsticky, if it really was unsticky, depends on your POV. This IDI believes an intruder brought black duct tape with them, and used it on JBR. If it became unsticky, it would have to be not too sticky to begin with, or it was removed and reapplied, or it became unsticky over time with moisture or heat or whatever.

Yes, we all do agree that JB did have duct tape over her mouth. The fact that it was a small square, and unsticky, and covered with tan fibers, and Patsy's sweater fibers...leads me to believe that an intruder did NOT bring it in with him. If he had of brought tape with him, it would have been on a roll...so, that it would be sticky. (An intruder is going to come prepared, and THAT also includes writing a RN ahead of time.) And if that had of happened, then there wouldn't be Patsy's fibers along with some unsourced tan fibers on the sticky side of the tape. So here is the question, why would an intruder use a SMALL piece of unsticky tape to put over his victim's mouth to keep her quiet? He wouldn't. But, someone that was trying to stage a crime scene, in a hurry would.

 

[BBB167893]

You have supplied facts, its true. You posted that JR was on the right, a Republican. I'd be interested in some facts, thats for sure, maybe you'll help:

Where were the phones located in the R's house?

I can only guide you to the floor plan

What was the source of the pineapple?

How do you mean?

Is the stairs where the RN was found on the most direct path from JBR's bedroom to the basement?

No. The coming out of JB's bedroom, you turn right and are immediately faced with the spiral staircase on the left and the main staircase on the right. Now, at that point, you could go either way, although the main staircase would be a lot easier. Once you hit the ground floor, then it gets tricky. If you took the main staircase, you could just keep going to the basement.
BUT, if you took the spiral staircase, you'd come out on the first floor, you'd have to go left, turn left again to head through the kitchen, keep going through a doorway and hit the main staircase.

How credible was the scream witness?

Not very. She later said it might have been JB's "negative energy."

Was there more than one witness to the scream?

Not that I know of.

 

[BBB167893]

Okay, I don't get it. You are agreeing with me that there is more evidence that points to that of the parents doing it, instead of an intruder ?

I have to admit it confused the heck out of me, too.