Henry Lee's comment on the Touch DNA

[Ames]

I believe they intended to kidnap her, and something went wrong. Either JBR screamed, she wasn't what they expected, they lost nerve on taking her out the front door, or they simply changed their mind.

I think the unsticky tape adds to the scream argument.

Not hardly...since all experts agree that since there is a perfect lip impression on the tape, that JB was ALREADY unconscious when the tape was placed there. When tape is placed over a conscious persons mouth, they struggle, leaving lip or mouth impressions. JB didn't do that.

Carnes Opinion

• Lip Prints on Tape. Plaintiff also notes that the strip of duct tape found on JonBenet's mouth had a bloody mucous on it and a "perfect set of child's lip prints, which did not indicate a tongue impression or resistance." (PSDMF 53.)(Carnes 2003:15).

From Ames...so, if JB was already unconscious...how did she scream?

 

[JMO8778]

And JR would have hardly been able to rip it off of her mouth,if it had mucous under it.It was probably barely attached,if it all.

 

[Chrishope]

You are totally missing my point. You stated that the RN being placed on the spiral stairs would be a trip..to let the intruders know when someone came down the stairs? HOW? How is placing a note on the steps, going to alert the intruder if anyone comes down them? If the intruder had of installed some sort of ALARM to go off when Patsy found the note..that would be ONE thing...but, if the intruder is listening out for someone to come down the spiral staircase, because they are not in view of the spiral staircase, placing a note there is not going to make Patsy or John's footsteps any harder. Do you know what I mean? Do you see where I am coming from? IOW...just because the intruder placed the note on the spiral staircase, doesn't mean that the intruder will automatically be able to hear someone coming down them. Does that make sense to you?

I think the implication is that Patsy would scream, or call out to John, or say WTF? or in some way make some noise. That part seems sensible enough, though one would have to assume the intruder(s) were familiar enough with PRs routines that they knew she'd go down the spiral stairs


That would in turn, alert the two gentlemen in the basement, you know, the ones who brought their own roll of duct tape but only used a tiny square of it. The ones who brought their own rope, but didn't tie her hands tighty.

These are the same perps who planned the crime in meticulous detail, well in advance, but forgot to bring something to wrap her in - so they went to the basement, because that's where everyone keeps blankies, right?

 

[BBB167893]

I've posted before that the placement of the RN is significant in IDI, not significant in RDI (the R's could simply say they found it on the stairs).

Actually, it is significant to RDI, in two ways:

1) It was left in a place where PR habitually left items to remember later.

2) The police tried to recreate PR's story about hopping over the note when she came down that morning and found it to be impossible.

I always thought the RN placed on the stairs could act as a tripwire to warn intruders that the parents were coming downstairs. Since the basement and spiral stairs are at nearly opposite ends of the house, I now doubt it would be a warning to someone in the basement. It could've been a warning to someone in the kitchen, though. That is, someone in the kitchen watching the main stairs while listening for the spiral stairs. Those are the only two ways to go from the 2nd floor to the first.

In a scenario where three intruders were present, one could've been in the kitchen while the other two were in the basement.

To answer your question, I'd say the parents would've encountered an armed intruder before making it to the basement, because an
intruder as concerned as you think they would be, could have been sitting in the kitchen while watching the main stairs and listening for the rear spiral stairs.

Could someone remind me why I came here on my birthday, of all days?

 

[BBB167893]

Who says? The intruder watching the front (remember, where the main stairs, front door, and basement are??) can't watch the back too, and cant hear someone coming down the spiral staircase. Did JR have army boots on, or is he a noisy walker? Is that how someone near the front of the house can magically hear JR or PR coming down the spiral stairs, all the way in the rear?

It wouldn't need army boots, or a noisy walker OR magic! I'll show you: a few years ago, a TV special was done on this case. At one point, the host went down the spiral staircase. It creaked and groaned like a girder being bent. You could hear it all over the entire house. Plenty of warning.

 

[Ames]

I think the implication is that Patsy would scream, or call out to John, or say WTF? or in some way make some noise. That part seems sensible enough, though one would have to assume the intruder(s) were familiar enough with PRs routines that they knew she'd go down the spiral stairs


That would in turn, alert the two gentlemen in the basement, you know, the ones who brought their own roll of duct tape but only used a tiny square of it. The ones who brought their own rope, but didn't tie her hands tighty.

These are the same perps who planned the crime in meticulous detail, well in advance, but forgot to bring something to wrap her in - so they went to the basement, because that's where everyone keeps blankies, right?[/quote]

I believe that the scream that the neighbor heard, was actually Patsy, after realizing what she had done. Yeah, and the same perps that FORGOT to write a RN, so they just decided to do it there in the Ramsey's household. I guess that they brought their crystal ball with them too...and it told them where the Ramsey's were, and what time they would be home....oh yeah, and it also told them that the Ramsey's were very sound sleepers, and that they would not be waking up at any point during the night.

 

[Chrishope]

Happy Birthday Dave.

 

[angelwngs]

Happy Birthday Dave.

I second that emotion! :crazy:

 

[BBB167893]

Thank you, folks.

But I only mentioned it as an observation of how dedicated we all are to this case, regardless of feelings. Please, direct your kind wishes to me in private. Thank you very much.

 

[angelwngs]

Thank you, folks.

But I only mentioned it as an observation of how dedicated we all are to this case, regardless of feelings. Please, direct your kind wishes to me in private. Thank you very much.

Oh HECK!!!!!!!!!!!! You deserve a VERY PUBLIC congratulations and many well wishes on your Birthday! :clap::clap::clap:

(By the way, you have your own Birthday Thread in the Jury Room! :crazy

 

[BBB167893]

Oh HECK!!!!!!!!!!!! You deserve a VERY PUBLIC congratulations and many well wishes on your Birthday! :clap::clap::clap:

(By the way, you have your own Birthday Thread in the Jury Room! :crazy

I do? Okay!

I'm not trying to discourage anyone; I'd just like to keep this thread about business if possible.

 

[Ames]

Actually, it is significant to RDI, in two ways:

1) It was left in a place where PR habitually left items to remember later.

2) The police tried to recreate PR's story about hopping over the note when she came down that morning and found it to be impossible.



Could someone remind me why I came here on my birthday, of all days?

IMO that RN was never left on the stairs at all. Hence the lack of Ramsey fingerprints. I believe that the ONLY time that the RN was even picked up at all, was when Patsy had it in her hands to give to investigators. Other than that...I believe that she wore rubber gloves when she wrote it, and it wasn't touched after that, except to maybe spread it out on the floor for all of her friends to see.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Not hardly...since all experts agree that since there is a perfect lip impression on the tape, that JB was ALREADY unconscious when the tape was placed there. When tape is placed over a conscious persons mouth, they struggle, leaving lip or mouth impressions. JB didn't do that.

Carnes Opinion

• Lip Prints on Tape. Plaintiff also notes that the strip of duct tape found on JonBenet's mouth had a bloody mucous on it and a "perfect set of child's lip prints, which did not indicate a tongue impression or resistance." (PSDMF 53.)(Carnes 2003:15).

From Ames...so, if JB was already unconscious...how did she scream?

'...which did not indicate a tongue impression or resistance' doesn't mean 'unconscious' necessarily. It could mean weak, nearly unconscious, or tape that was so tight a 'tongue impression' could not be made. A perfect set of child's lip prints is a sign that the adhesive was working. If it was unsticky, there wouldn't be any impression, true?

 

[angelwngs]

'...which did not indicate a tongue impression or resistance' doesn't mean 'unconscious' necessarily. It could mean weak, nearly unconscious, or tape that was so tight a 'tongue impression' could not be made. A perfect set of child's lip prints is a sign that the adhesive was working. If it was unsticky, there wouldn't be any impression, true?

Have you personally tested this theory or are you just throwing this out there in hopes someone will bite? If you haven't personally tested it, why not? Try it and let us know... I'd be interested to hear the results...

 

[Ames]

'...which did not indicate a tongue impression or resistance' doesn't mean 'unconscious' necessarily. It could mean weak, nearly unconscious, or tape that was so tight a 'tongue impression' could not be made. A perfect set of child's lip prints is a sign that the adhesive was working. If it was unsticky, there wouldn't be any impression, true?

Holdon, nope its not true, according to the experts. There would have been some sort of tongue impression, if she had of been alive or concious...according with the experts, you KNOW ...the people that deal with this sort of thing in their daily work. And THEY should know. The tape also had not only Patsy's fibers, but some tan fibers from some unknown source...making it not as sticky as it would have been straight off the roll. Even Jameson said that she tested that sort of tape, and it was not very adhesive, in the first place. (Nevermind the fact that it had fibers on it, making it even LESS sticky.)

 

[Ames]

Have you personally tested this theory or are you just throwing this out there in hopes someone will bite? If you haven't personally tested it, why not? Try it and let us know... I'd be interested to hear the results...

Two known IDI's have tested it, and even THEY say that sort of tape was NOT very adhesive.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Two known IDI's have tested it, and even THEY say that sort of tape was NOT very adhesive.

What sort of tape? Do you know the type of tape, and have a source?

 

[Ames]

What sort of tape? Do you know the type of tape, and have a source?

Be back in a minute, I have to look it up.

Okay, this is what I found on wiki...when I click on Jameson or Mame, I get a forum that I have to sign up for, that I don't want to sign up for. So, I will let you check out exactly what they had to say, if you want to. Meanwhile, I went ahead and pasted the rest of what wiki had to say about the Physical Characteristcs of the tape. The one concerning your question is the very last sentence....
Physical Characteristics




According to John Ramsey's account over several interviews (excerpted at Starting Over-JonBenet), some key points about the duct tape are:

• Color. The duct tape was black, a point JR makes repeatedly. At one point he states "it was like black. It wasn't electrical tape. It was kind of white, black, unusual tape, I thought." It appears that "wide" may have been incorrectly transcribed as "white" in this statement since there are repeated other instances in which he refers to the tape as black. Crime scene photos make the tape appear gray, but this may be due to a reflection of light off the black tape. Internet poster Shill has provided a photo showing that the sticky side of a certain kind of duct tape is gray.
• Size. The tape is described as wider than electrical tape but not as wide as duct tape; JR appears quite certain on this point. He had previously used tape of a similar size that was white for sailing, but had never seen that type of tape in black previously. Note the Carnes opinion below indicates it was duct tape despite John's insistence it was not that wide (in the interviews, John is surprised by how wide the tape appears in crime-scene photos since it does not square his recollection).
• Cut or Torn? JR also several times notes the smooth edges of the tape, asserting that it has been cut with a knife and NOT torn by hand as one might normally do with duct tape. Note the Carnes opinion below indicates both ends were torn.
• Loose or Firm? JR reported the tape adhered all the way to JBR's mouth, i.e., it was not just loose on her lips. Internet posters Jameson (see 11/10/06:8:43pm) and Mame (see 11/10/06:10:47pm) have each done experiments with similar tape and found them to be very non-adhesive.

 

[BBB167893]

Have you personally tested this theory or are you just throwing this out there in hopes someone will bite? If you haven't personally tested it, why not? Try it and let us know... I'd be interested to hear the results...

Well, if he hasn't, I have! And I don't think he'd like the answer! Ames beat me to it, though.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Be back in a minute, I have to look it up.

Okay, this is what I found on wiki...when I click on Jameson or Mame, I get a forum that I have to sign up for, that I don't want to sign up for. So, I will let you check out exactly what they had to say, if you want to. Meanwhile, I went ahead and pasted the rest of what wiki had to say about the Physical Characteristcs of the tape. The one concerning your question is the very last sentence....
Physical Characteristics





According to John Ramsey's account over several interviews (excerpted at Starting Over-JonBenet), some key points about the duct tape are:

• Color. The duct tape was black, a point JR makes repeatedly. At one point he states "it was like black. It wasn't electrical tape. It was kind of white, black, unusual tape, I thought." It appears that "wide" may have been incorrectly transcribed as "white" in this statement since there are repeated other instances in which he refers to the tape as black. Crime scene photos make the tape appear gray, but this may be due to a reflection of light off the black tape. Internet poster Shill has provided a photo showing that the sticky side of a certain kind of duct tape is gray.
• Size. The tape is described as wider than electrical tape but not as wide as duct tape; JR appears quite certain on this point. He had previously used tape of a similar size that was white for sailing, but had never seen that type of tape in black previously. Note the Carnes opinion below indicates it was duct tape despite John's insistence it was not that wide (in the interviews, John is surprised by how wide the tape appears in crime-scene photos since it does not square his recollection).
• Cut or Torn? JR also several times notes the smooth edges of the tape, asserting that it has been cut with a knife and NOT torn by hand as one might normally do with duct tape. Note the Carnes opinion below indicates both ends were torn.
• Loose or Firm? JR reported the tape adhered all the way to JBR's mouth, i.e., it was not just loose on her lips. Internet posters Jameson (see 11/10/06:8:43pm) and Mame (see 11/10/06:10:47pm) have each done experiments with similar tape and found them to be very non-adhesive.

Was it fabric reinforced or plain vinyl? Was it even vinyl and not cloth? Are there any photos of the tape? How wide and how long was the piece.

Its a lot to not know.