Holly Bobo, missing from TN 2014 discussion #4 ***ARRESTS***

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  • #181
The state may have a good argument about the jurisdiction of this particular type of court and also whether any testimony could affect the upcoming trial.

I dont know how they get around the testimony aspect of this and I did wonder if the lawyer filed in the wrong type of court. This sure is interesting.

The use of the term "buyers remorse" to me implies the suspect may be more involved than the state realized when they made the deal. What other reason would there be buyers remorse unless the perp was much more involved.

More likely he knew less about the Bobo case than they thought, but in return he got a free pass on other charges.

So they basically let him go and got little in return. And at the same time they have charged a bunch of other people, presumably with him as the star witness. If he turns out to know very little, they could end up losing their charges against everyone else as well.

That is what they are worried about. I think the withdrawal of immunity is really so that they can treat him as a hostile witness, but still use some of his original statements while arguing that he doesn't want to confirm them in court because he lost his immunity on other stuff. That might let them squeak past a jury arguing that the accused are really bad guys, and should be convicted on that basis.
 
  • #182
Not so. If you have a contract with someone, and they serve notice that they intend to breach the contract, you can go to court and get a judge to order them to abide by the contract.

You can't go to the judge before they tell you of their intent, but as soon as the DA sent off that letter the door to proactively get an injunction against breach was opened. The aggrieved party does not have to wait for the breach to actually happen under those circumstances.

If you will allow me to nitpick a tiny bit here ....

The essence and ramification of what you said above is correct. But legally, one point is a bit amiss.

When the letter is sent, at that point the breach is considered to have already occurred. (The letter, in a sense legally, moves the future non-performance by the DA to the time of the letter.) So an injunction would be to remedy a breach already legally considered to have been committed, not one that is being awaited.

That nuance may be nitpicking, but the law is typically a nitpicky world.

And that nuance is what has persuaded me that SA has been given every right to take the DA to court and demand they prove a breach by SA immediately BARD.

That's because the letter is the legal equivalent of the breaching act of the future already being done now. Since that anticipated "act of the future" is an indictment for something he was promised immunity for, he has every right to respond in the same way as if it had already happened, which means he goes to court and demands the indictment be swatted away based on the immunity.

The fact that the case/indictment hasn't already started merely changes the setting for the argument, but not the proof required nor the argument.

To me, the law is clear, and the distinctions here are obvious, because that's how any other contract would be treated, and at its core this is unquestionably a contractual matter. Of course, the court and judge are the only ones whose viewpoint will really matter, so it will be interesting to see what they eventually decide.
 
  • #183
I agree with all your points except for #6. We don't know, as yet, what LE has in the way of evidence. Not knowing anything for sure, I do think the DA can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that SA did not fulfill his end of the bargain or lied or was actively involved in the abduction and murder. Maybe I have too much faith in LE, but I don't think this DA would make this move if he did not have evidence to back it up. It would be stupid for him to do so otherwise. I think, basically, SA and his lawyer are on a fishing expedition to see just what the DA has on SA that would cause the DA to void the agreement. Maybe SA knows he did not perform as expected, will be indicted eventually, and wants to know before the indictment about the evidence against him. I think all this could have been avoided if the DA simply took whatever evidence against SA he has before the grand jury and got an indictment. The grand jury is not going to indict unless there is proof. The agreement clearly states it can be voided if it is determined that SA was an active participant in the abduction and/or murder. I guess we can agree to disagree and wait to hear whatever court rules on this issue. Ya'll have a good morning.

I agree with what you said here. However, what needs to be addressed is the fact that two people have already been indicted in Holly's abduction/murder. Even with these arrests, this is still very much an ongoing investigation.

There are many aspects of the case that the prosecutors don't want made public because they don't want to prematurely tip their hand to the other defense teams. Long is, indeed, on a fishing expedition for the benefit of his client. However, any fish he catches will help the other two already charged.

I strongly believe that there are other immunity agreements out there. There are witnesses who have protection against prosecution for minor involvement. If SA's feet are not held to the fire to tell the whole truth, other such witnesses would think they could avoid testifying or change their story.

There is also the possibility that, in this on-going investigation, that there are others who have provided the prosecution with more information about his involvement which prove he had more involvement than covered by the immunity agreement.

The prosecutor is between a rock and a hard place here.
 
  • #184
It clearly stated in the agreement that the agreement would be voided if SA wasn't truthful or wasn't forthcoming with what he agreed to tell/show LE. Therefore, I don't think his civil rights are violated if he is indicted. It seems to me, he knew what LE wanted and agreed to show/tell but either lied or didn't tell everything that LE has evidence to prove. Or, LE could have found out he was an active participant in whatever happened to Holly. The agreement could be voided if LE found that out too. A person's rights aren't violated when they knowingly lie to or try to one-up LE and then get caught doing so. SA knew what was expected of him and did not deliver. Some type of evidence had to lead LE to SA. I don't think he walked in off the street volunteering info.

That is why I am confused by SteveS's arguments. In the agreement it clearly lays out the stipulations that must be followed by the one who is being given immunity and truthfulness is paramount. It clearly states if any of those things aren't adhered to the contract will be null and void. It isn't like Austin didn't know what was expected of him and was blindsided by all of this. So that clause is attached for a purpose and with it being included in all immunity agreements it means the agreement can be rescinded if the one given immunity fails to follow through.

This all came about because of Austin's actions or inactions to fulfill his part of the contract. It is no different to me than one agreeing to pay their mortgage on time every month yet fails to follow through. If that happens then of course the bank has recourse to null and void the contract.

I feel that after the contract was signed the DA/TBI has been given further evidence since then to support that Austin hasn't been truthful. Since the TBI Director has now said that several people have now come forward, and we don't know, but maybe even more have come forth since he made that statement. IMO, every witness that has now come forward is consistent in telling them that Austin is not being truthful in his true role he played in this crime. It is obvious that he is claiming to be only an after the fact perpetrator.

I don't even think they need Austin's testimony anymore concerning the burial and disposal of Holly.

They will use other witnesses, who may also have immunity agreements, that will testify to what happened to Holly's remains after she was murdered.

If immunity agreements couldn't be legally rescinded then the null and void clause would never be entered in the contract in the first place.

IMO
 
  • #185
If you will allow me to nitpick a tiny bit here ....

The essence and ramification of what you said above is correct. But legally, one point is a bit amiss.

When the letter is sent, at that point the breach is considered to have already occurred. (The letter, in a sense legally, moves the future non-performance by the DA to the time of the letter.) So an injunction would be to remedy a breach already legally considered to have been committed, not one that is being awaited.

That nuance may be nitpicking, but the law is typically a nitpicky world.

And that nuance is what has persuaded me that SA has been given every right to take the DA to court and demand they prove a breach by SA immediately BARD.

That's because the letter is the legal equivalent of the breaching act of the future already being done now. Since that anticipated "act of the future" is an indictment for something he was promised immunity for, he has every right to respond in the same way as if it had already happened, which means he goes to court and demands the indictment be swatted away based on the immunity.

The fact that the case/indictment hasn't already started merely changes the setting for the argument, but not the proof required nor the argument.

To me, the law is clear, and the distinctions here are obvious, because that's how any other contract would be treated, and at its core this is unquestionably a contractual matter. Of course, the court and judge are the only ones whose viewpoint will really matter, so it will be interesting to see what they eventually decide.

BBM

So you think the DA wants to rescind this particular immunity agreement and then turn around and charge him with accessory after the fact? Since that is the only thing this immunity agreement seems to cover.
 
  • #186
Holly Bobo case suspect to appear in court Wednesday over immunity dispute

PARSONS, Tenn., May 28 (UPI) --A 29-year-old man who was promised immunity in exchange for helping authorities crack the case of missing nursing student Holly Bobo will present arguments in his suit against the prosecution in a circuit court Wednesday.

Read more: http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2014...immunity-dispute/7561401275227/#ixzz331AJUbE1

Prosecutors request gag order in Holly Bobo case

Recent news interview violated Department of Correction policy, prosecutors say.

As part of a gag order motion filed in Decatur County Criminal Court, prosecutors are seeking to keep Jason Autry or anyone else involved in the case from speaking about the case to ensure the suspect receives a fair trail.

http://www.theleafchronicle.com/art...twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter&nclick_check=1
 
  • #187
Holly Bobo case suspect to appear in court Wednesday over immunity dispute

PARSONS, Tenn., May 28 (UPI) --A 29-year-old man who was promised immunity in exchange for helping authorities crack the case of missing nursing student Holly Bobo will present arguments in his suit against the prosecution in a circuit court Wednesday.

Read more: http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2014...immunity-dispute/7561401275227/#ixzz331AJUbE1

Prosecutors request gag order in Holly Bobo case

Recent news interview violated Department of Correction policy, prosecutors say.

As part of a gag order motion filed in Decatur County Criminal Court, prosecutors are seeking to keep Jason Autry or anyone else involved in the case from speaking about the case to ensure the suspect receives a fair trail.

http://www.theleafchronicle.com/art...twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter&nclick_check=1


:seeya: Thank You, Dr. !


BBM: WOW ... it's going to be a busy day today :

- SA in Circuit Court -- NOT TODAY

- JA's arraignment


:seeya: Morning Y'all !
 
  • #188
  • #189
  • #190
If you will allow me to nitpick a tiny bit here ....

The essence and ramification of what you said above is correct. But legally, one point is a bit amiss.

When the letter is sent, at that point the breach is considered to have already occurred. (The letter, in a sense legally, moves the future non-performance by the DA to the time of the letter.) So an injunction would be to remedy a breach already legally considered to have been committed, not one that is being awaited.

That nuance may be nitpicking, but the law is typically a nitpicky world.

And that nuance is what has persuaded me that SA has been given every right to take the DA to court and demand they prove a breach by SA immediately BARD.

That's because the letter is the legal equivalent of the breaching act of the future already being done now. Since that anticipated "act of the future" is an indictment for something he was promised immunity for, he has every right to respond in the same way as if it had already happened, which means he goes to court and demands the indictment be swatted away based on the immunity.

The fact that the case/indictment hasn't already started merely changes the setting for the argument, but not the proof required nor the argument.

To me, the law is clear, and the distinctions here are obvious, because that's how any other contract would be treated, and at its core this is unquestionably a contractual matter. Of course, the court and judge are the only ones whose viewpoint will really matter, so it will be interesting to see what they eventually decide.

I agree that the letter they sent is basically them saying they are not going to honor the contract anymore. So I agree it seems that SA and his lawyer can take some court action if they disagree that he did not honor his part of the deal.

IMO, this is really a critical part of Holly's case in how this gets resolved.
This could have huge ramifications depending on what happens with this supposed breach.
Whether SA becomes a hostile or cooperative witness is huge depending on what he knows or doesnt know.

I had mentioned before that SA should have insisted to be present when he told them the location. If he offered to go to the location and LE told him no, then he maybe able to say they were the ones that did not take him up on his offer to go in person to the location. Not sure if the location thing is the only thing considered in breach but it seems that was at least part of it.

ETA: Regardless of how this turns out, I think LE has already caused some future witnesses to take pause in cooperating with them. There are some people who are not going to trust LE now at this point. I can see where this is headed. There may be some witnesses who are going to take the 5th if asked to testify.
LE has every right to rescind the agreement if SA legally broke the agreement, but irregardless of that, this whole debacle will cause certain future witnesses to maybe get cold feet now.

All JMO of course.
 
  • #191
~n/t~: Are they back from recess?



After the recess, the judge did make a ruling, of a fashion. She declared that the Chancery Court in which they had taken the case for a determination was the wrong venue, and she punted it to the Circuit Court to determine. Given her relative inexperience as a judge and the import of the decision, it was probably a wise move of her to get it out of her hands.

No word, from what I can tell, as to when it might go before the Circuit Court.
<snipped>

I saw a description posted here earlier about what the various courts cover, and I wondered why his attorney filed it where he did. I would have expected it to be filed in Circuit Court just based on the explanations of what they do.
 
  • #192
From: https://twitter.com/JordanBuie


Jordan Buie · 45m


According to Decatur County Circuit Court Clerk Danny Tanner, #UPI report is incorrect, Austin will not be in court there today #HollyBobo

---------------------------------------------------------------------------


It was reported earlier that SA would be in Circuit Court today ... so apparently this was incorrect.
 
  • #193
From: https://twitter.com/JordanBuie


Jordan Buie · 45m


According to Decatur County Circuit Court Clerk Danny Tanner, #UPI report is incorrect, Austin will not be in court there today #HollyBobo

---------------------------------------------------------------------------


It was reported earlier that SA would be in Circuit Court today ... so apparently this was incorrect.

Thanks DGC. I was just going to post that. I was surpised it would be that quick.
 
  • #194
Thanks DGC. I was just going to post that. I was surpised it would be that quick.


:seeya: You're welcome !

Do you know when the hearing is scheduled for ?

I looked but can't find anything -- yet !

TIA !
 
  • #195
Here's what I see, from a legal pov:

1 Yes, SA had (or has) a duty to perform.

2 The idea that SA did not perform is only a claim at this point, and one that is in dispute.

3 There is a "good faith" implication in the contract, in which it is to be assumed, lacking proof to the contrary, that he has performed or will perform.

4 No matter what LE says SA has done (or not done) to breach the contract, they must PROVE it, and do so Beyond a Reasonable Doubt, in order for their duty to be removed.

5 There is no question that the DA has not offered proof of any kind to anyone that SA has not performed.

6 SA's rights are contractual (he has a right to expect the DA to perform), but the fact that the contract pertains to the preservation of his 5th Amendment rights puts his Constitutional and criminal rights into play as well.

7 As I see it, LE is playing a very risky and perhaps incredibly stupid game here, with little upside and huge downside.

8 Ultimately LE's obligation will be ascertained by how the court sees it. Or, perhaps, courts.

Excellent summary. I totally agree.

I have huge concerns how this whole debacle may affect this case.
Not only how SA may testify as either a hostile OR cooperative witness OR maybe even taking the 5th but I am also very much concerned how future potential witnesses maybe already affected by what is going on.
I envision some witnesses getting cold feet now just based on what is already happening.

Even future new cases in that area could also be affected. Just think about it. If you happen to live in that area and you somehow accidentally got yourself involved with others doing something illegal and LE came to you offering a deal. Would you trust them?

My point being that even if LE is totally in the right here, I think maybe some damage has already occurred to both this case and future cases. I think LE will have a tougher time getting people to cooperate with them.

But dont get me wrong. If SA did truly break his agreement legally, then LE has every right to do what they are doing and I am glad they are doing it. Just trying to point out that there may be unforseeen ramifications to this.
 
  • #196
That is why I am confused by SteveS's arguments. In the agreement it clearly lays out the stipulations that must be followed by the one who is being given immunity and truthfulness is paramount. It clearly states if any of those things aren't adhered to the contract will be null and void. It isn't like Austin didn't know what was expected of him and was blindsided by all of this. So that clause is attached for a purpose and with it being included in all immunity agreements it means the agreement can be rescinded if the one given immunity fails to follow through.

This all came about because of Austin's actions or inactions to fulfill his part of the contract. It is no different to me than one agreeing to pay their mortgage on time every month yet fails to follow through. If that happens then of course the bank has recourse to null and void the contract.

I'm not sure what is causing your confusion, but let me use your bank analogy and see if I can help. As with your example, I'll put the bank in the role of the DA and the homeowner in the role of SA.

1 The homeowner pays (or claims to have paid) every payment on time
2 He gets a foreclosure notice from the bank saying, "You have not paid, so we will foreclose"
3 He contacts the bank, who says, "We say you haven't paid, but we aren't going to tell you what payment you missed. Your mortgage says you must pay, and we'll let you know when we file for foreclosure."

In that circumstance, does he have to wait until the foreclosure is actually filed, before responding? Clearly not, but instead he will file suit pronto to force the bank to PROVE that he has breached the contract (in this example, by missing a payment).

In all of that, it does not presuppose that the homeowner can skip payments and still stave off the foreclosure. But the bank's notice is a breach of their contract, and the bank will be forced to PROVE that one or more payments were missed.

Now return to the DA and SA and the case at hand.

No one - especially me - is claiming that SA has the right to fail to perform. If he doesn't do what he said, he has breached the contract and the DA's duty to provide immunity is over. BUT if the DA wants to pull out of the contract at some point with a claim that SA didn't live up to it, then that action by the DA can be legally challenged with a demand to prove that SA failed to perform.

And we must keep in mind that what the DA claims to be a failure to perform, might not actually rise to that level once a judge takes a look. For example, if SA told a lie or made a mistake on something, but it was not really important, that would almost certainly not be enough to void the deal. Ultimately, it's up to the court (not the DA) to determine if what SA did is enough to void the deal.
 
  • #197
Hiyas! Is there going to be a live feed at 1pm? tia
 
  • #198
More likely he knew less about the Bobo case than they thought, but in return he got a free pass on other charges.

So they basically let him go and got little in return. And at the same time they have charged a bunch of other people, presumably with him as the star witness. If he turns out to know very little, they could end up losing their charges against everyone else as well.

That is what they are worried about. I think the withdrawal of immunity is really so that they can treat him as a hostile witness, but still use some of his original statements while arguing that he doesn't want to confirm them in court because he lost his immunity on other stuff. That might let them squeak past a jury arguing that the accused are really bad guys, and should be convicted on that basis.

This is my thought as well. A lot of people think they want to pull immunity due to the fact he had more involvement than he previously stated. That never made sense to me.
I believe he said he knew where the body was, and he didn't. That is why the DA wants to pull immunity. The guy lead them to believe he had some vital information and he just didn't.
 
  • #199
  • #200
This was probably mentioned already, but what if he knew where they put her and then they moved her without telling him?
 
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