How bad a mother does it take? European or American ideas?

[Rino]

As for saying no one but Madeleine is a victim, do you really mean to say that, if your child was missing and now presumed dead, and you knew in your heart this wouldn't be the case if you had only not gone to dinner that night, or had you only gotten a babysitter, you really don't think you'd suffer? .......


Easy to say when you don't have to test that theory. Maybe you would, or maybe not. I'm sure we share the hope you never have to find out how you would really act in that situation.


Shrinky

You lose me here Shrinky. The McCanns made a victim of their daughter through neglect. If the are guilty of the larger crimes of killing her or drugging the kids we don't yet know. The claim of of kidnapping happened in this case soley due to their bad parenting. That she was taken at all has yet to be proven. If she was abducted, it was because they made an eacy victim of their children, they are only lucky to have still have the twins.

So no, I do not beleive the McCann parents are victims, they are guilty. How much guilt do they own we don't know yet.

Only a parent who leaves their children unattended will be able to test that theory, only neglegent parents. I have raised 3, all under 4 at one time, too. Seeing them to adulthood is the goal, leaving them alone while partying is just one of many ways to blow it.

 

[shrinkydink]

I don't think that "European Custom" or "European Law" is going to come to their rescue for this reason:

Some of the other parents had nannies and babysitters. Therefore, the McCanns made a conscious decision NOT to have a nanny or a babysitter on multiple nights when they were "out."
Ignorance or "Stupidity" is never a good excuse, I don't care what country you are in. And they can't plead that they were naive, because they weren't just small town hicks.

True. But when you live in a country where most parents have been "guilty" of leaving their under-five child alone because that society considers it reasonably safe, this will be considered.

I don't know the legal system in Portugal, but in Switzerland, what is considered the societal norm would be taken into consideration by a panel of judges. If the judges consider this a "societal norm", it would not be prosecuted.

Shrinky

 

[SleuthMom]

You lose me here Shrinky. The McCanns made a victim of their daughter through neglect. If the are guilty of the larger crimes of killing her or drugging the kids we don't yet know. The claim of of kidnapping happened in this case soley due to their bad parenting. That she was taken at all has yet to be proven. If she was abducted, it was because they made an eacy victim of their children, they are only lucky to have still have the twins.

So no, I do not beleive the McCann parents are victims, they are guilty. How much guilt do they own we don't know yet.

Only a parent who leaves their children unattended will be able to test that theory, only neglegent parents. I have raised 3, all under 4 at one time, too. Seeing them to adulthood is the goal, leaving them alone while partying is just one of many ways to blow it.

Excellent!

 

[shrinkydink]

I also don't think that this recognizes both. You can be gulity of endangerment, but this does not also make you a non-victim. They can be guilty of endangering their child, but this does not make them guilty of causing the crime that did actually befall the child. Looked at in another case, if a child is left unatteneded, that parent is possibly guilty of child-endangerment, based on circumstances. If a person leaves a child unattendend and that child is set on fire, the parent would not be guilty of setting the child on fire.

It's not the same crime, and the parent would still be a victim by association, as the parent of the child who was a victim. Not a first-hand victim to be sure, but just as much as victim as any parent whose child was set into flames.

Shrinky

 

[SleuthMom]

I don't know the legal system in Portugal, but in Switzerland, what is considered the societal norm would be taken into consideration by a panel of judges. If the judges consider this a "societal norm", it would not be prosecuted.

Shrinky

Oh I would love to hear a Judge that says to the Mc Canns "Mr and Mrs. Mc Cann you are FREE of the charge of negligence, the LAW understands that culturally, in your country leaving three small kids (three and under) unsupervised (and unfortunately one went missing) is the "norm" . No charges will be filed against you because "everybody does it" in your area."

:hand:

 

[Texana]

Actually, in Texas, a couple who left three children alone in an apartment in which fire broke out, and the children died, were charged with felony murder:

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=local&id=3636882&ft=lg

just as if they has set the fire themselves.

This is the article from the beginning of the trial, but the mother and the boyfriend were both found guilty at the end.

 

[Rino]

I also don't think that this recognizes both. You can be gulity of endangerment, but this does not also make you a non-victim. They can be guilty of endangering their child, but this does not make them guilty of causing the crime that did actually befall the child. Looked at in another case, if a child is left unatteneded, that parent is possibly guilty of child-endangerment, based on circumstances. If a person leaves a child unattendend and that child is set on fire, the parent would not be guilty of setting the child on fire.

It's not the same crime, and the parent would still be a victim by association, as the parent of the child who was a victim. Not a first-hand victim to be sure, but just as much as victim as any parent whose child was set into flames.

Shrinky

The parent guilty of endangerment, whose child is set on fire is not a victim. No way no how. The poor child is a victim twice, how sad is that?

 

[sherri79]

i have only had time to skim this thread so my response is to the idea of how bad a mother is she to leave them alone if it is common where she lives. it still makes her a bad mother. if the reports are true that maddie woke crying for her parents earlier in the week it would be cruel to leave her alone in a strange place again. the dangers of a child alone are countless. i know a child that broke her are and the bone went through the shin from falling out of bed. having dinner in a garden is a far cry from having it down the street. my daughter is 12 and in the middle school band. i go to every football game to keep a eye on her. most parents do not. there are teachers there so they feel since it is on school property their child is safe. it is my responsibility to keep my child safe and the excuse of every other parent does it would not bring her back. i look far possible dangers (if you wanted to take a preteen girl where better to find one alone than a after school event?) after i find the dangers i look for ways to protect my child. no greater joy or responsibility is a child.

 

[sherri79]

I also don't think that this recognizes both. You can be gulity of endangerment, but this does not also make you a non-victim. They can be guilty of endangering their child, but this does not make them guilty of causing the crime that did actually befall the child. Looked at in another case, if a child is left unatteneded, that parent is possibly guilty of child-endangerment, based on circumstances. If a person leaves a child unattendend and that child is set on fire, the parent would not be guilty of setting the child on fire.

It's not the same crime, and the parent would still be a victim by association, as the parent of the child who was a victim. Not a first-hand victim to be sure, but just as much as victim as any parent whose child was set into flames.

Shrinky

wouldn't the parents be a accomplice instead of a victim?

 

[shrinkydink]

Actually, in Texas, a couple who left three children alone in an apartment in which fire broke out, and the children died, were charged with felony murder:

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=local&id=3636882&ft=lg

just as if they has set the fire themselves.

This is the article from the beginning of the trial, but the mother and the boyfriend were both found guilty at the end.

Yes, but Texas is geographically and legally very far from Europe. We have Roman law here - no silly jury of your peers kind of thing. Judges all the way.

 

[shrinkydink]

wouldn't the parents be a accomplice instead of a victim?

I guess it depends on definitions at this point. Was Adam Walsh's mother an accomplice? If I leave my door open or my child alone for five minutes, am I an accomplice? My dictionary says an accomlice is

a person who knowingly helps another in a crime or wrongdoing, often as a subordinate.

Did the McCanns KNOWINGLY help another commit a crime? I seriously doubt, stupid as they were, the McCanns left their children alone with the intent their children be kidnapped, so I tend to think that weren't accomplices.

If you leave your front door open and someone walks in and robs you are you an accomplice or a victim or a little of both?

Shrinky

 

[sherri79]

I guess it depends on defintions at this point. Was Adam Walsh's mother an accomplice? Could a person not be both, if the "accomplice" part was not intended? I seriously doubt, stupid as they were, the McCanns left their children alone with the intent their children be kidnapped, so I tend to think that weren't accomplices.

If you leave your front door open and someone walks in and robs you are you an accomplice or a victim or a little of both?

Shrinky

adam walsh's mother is a good point. i take into account this was long before the public was aware of the dangers to a child even in public if you took your eyes off them. there was no center for missing children at the time. she felt her son was safe due to the fact she was in public and people did not run around grabbing kids in the middle of a mall. in maddie's case the parent knew the children were in danger. if not from stranger than from fire or accident. dont forget the twins. any parent knows 2yr olds are a walking bruise. children in this age range are known for accidents. the big difference for me is knowing your child faces danger.

 

[petra]

True. But when you live in a country where most parents have been "guilty" of leaving their under-five child alone because that society considers it reasonably safe, this will be considered.

I don't know the legal system in Portugal, but in Switzerland, what is considered the societal norm would be taken into consideration by a panel of judges. If the judges consider this a "societal norm", it would not be prosecuted.

Shrinky

This is simply NOT true.

I would like to see some links to Swiss child neglect and /or endangerment laws that address this.

Please stop spreading misinformation and your opinion which is not fact.
This is a very serious issue. And this is not the way it works.

 

[lakes]

Sadly, it is as lax as I have said. I am appalled by how people here try to act as if these things don't happen that often. Ok, maybe kids aren't kidnapped all that often, but as I ask my friends here, are you really going to be sitting around, saying, "Gee, the odds were totally against my child getting kidnapped¨" when it's *your* child? Of course not.

I don't get it, either, but I do think this case and the recent ones in Switzerland have made a bit of a difference. A few Swiss people are also now saying that children of only four and five should not be walking alone to school. This is really progress for this country. It IS a very safe country, but they do need to admit *no place* is pedophile-free. And you are quite right about the pedo-rings in Europe. If we all know the kids walk to school alone, you know the pedophiles are aware of it, too.

Shrinky

All i can say is that it is not that lax in the UK, iF YOU GET AWAY FROM WHAT THE uk Media have to say you will find a lot of us in the UK would not do whatthe Mccanns did.

Some do put their kids into preschools if they work, over the last few years we are being told that when you have a child you shold be back at work almost as soon as the cord is cut...that dont happen.

Child care is very big over here but i often hear of mothers giving up their jobs to look after their children full time.

It is also seen over here that if you go on a family holiday that what it is, a family. you dont push your kids into care all day, yes we have holiday parks where the kids can go to, but thats only for a few hours and you are still in the park.

I have a 2 year old , her name is Madison, and it dont feel good when we see headlines like Maddies dead.

I would never leave her if we was on holiday at that age, not even if she was 5 or 6.

 

[petra]

Yes, but Texas is geographically and legally very far from Europe. We have Roman law here - no silly jury of your peers kind of thing. Judges all the way.

Facts please. Another non truth.

 

[shrinkydink]

This is simply NOT true.

I would like to see some links to Swiss child neglect and /or endangerment laws that address this.

Please stop spreading misinformation and your opinion which is not fact.
This is a very serious issue. And this is not the way it works.

I am a law student in Zurich, so I have to guess my grasp of Swiss law is probably better than yours. I can give you Swiss law links in German or French. Which would you like?

Shrinky, not at all spreading misinformation about Swiss law

 

[petra]

All i can say is that it is not that lax in the UK, iF YOU GET AWAY FROM WHAT THE uk Media have to say you will find a lot of us in the UK would not do whatthe Mccanns did.

Some do put their kids into preschools if they work, over the last few years we are being told that when you have a child you shold be back at work almost as soon as the cord is cut...that dont happen.

Child care is very big over here but i often hear of mothers giving up their jobs to look after their children full time.

It is also seen over here that if you go on a family holiday that what it is, a family. you dont push your kids into care all day, yes we have holiday parks where the kids can go to, but thats only for a few hours and you are still in the park.

I have a 2 year old , her name is Madison, and it dont feel good when we see headlines like Maddies dead.

I would never leave her if we was on holiday at that age, not even if she was 5 or 6.

Welcome Lakes.
I agree with you.
Still hoping for a miracle that Madeleine is alive and well cared for somewhere, somehow.

 

[petra]

I am a law student in Zurich, so I have to guess my grasp of Swiss law is probably better than yours. I can give you Swiss law links in German or French. Which would you like?

Shrinky, not at all spreading misinformation about Swiss law

So you are a law student?
I would think you would know better. You guessed wrong about my knowledge of the law.

Either German or French is fine. Also the Euro law regarding such issues, if you don't mind. English or French is fine.

 

[BloodshotEye]

Ooooh - excellent point, Sherri79! Especially the part "children in this age range are known for accidents. The big difference for me is knowing your child faces danger."

Wow. That's huge to me. Why? Because the "knowing your child faces (or could face) danger", goes to the very core ability to assess risk. After seeing evidence of how these two parents conduct a risk assessment - I would hate to be one of their patients.

Seriously, I would put my faith in Blue Ridge Mountain folk medicine, before I would let K & M suggest what my health risks are. Gerry...in cardiology? Gimme a break.


European vs. American sentiments re: leaving children alone
Portugal Law Re: leaving children unattended
Although I have not read the code word-for-word, it has been reported that it is against the law in Portugal, to leave your children unattended. Similarly, in the U.S., you don't have to go very far to dig up a very recent case of a young single mother who leaves her children alone at night - to go party - and was charged with child abandonment; and her children put into CPS. Yet the McCanns did not even face a fine, or the equivalent of a misdemeanor. wtf?

This suggests to me, that Portugese and U.S (American) opinion about child abandonment is very similar.
So, are am I to believe that people felt "sorry" for them? Hmmmm...being "sorry" for them, is not fact-based.

 

[shrinkydink]

I am a law student in Zurich, so I have to guess my grasp of Swiss law is probably better than yours. I can give you Swiss law links in German or French. Which would you like?

Shrinky, not at all spreading misinformation about Swiss law

Portugal, for those who don't know, has a system *based on* the Napoleonic Code. I didn't make that up, either. Swiss civil law is based on Roman code.

Shrinky