I am so Angry

[TexMex]

This was a natural disaster.
People were going to die whether or not "Bush" got help in there or not.
Not everyone was going to be instantly saved or found because houses were flooded to the top.
People die instantly in almost every hurricane. You can't blame that on a person.

I personally don't like to be told that I should have to blame anyone, and I think it's wrong of you to post that we ALL should blame anyone.
I would try to keep your opinions like that to yourself and not generalize them for everyone.

Well said.

 

[PrayersForMaura]

And I don't like to be told I shouldn't blame anyone. But people have the right to post what they want.
In this case, I feel confident that my generalization is warranted. The commander in chief dropped the ball. He had the ability and power to send in troops and he didn't and people died days after the hurricane passed.

Dara, I personally don't care who you blame. I don't really like you to tell me who I should blame. That's all I meant.

Thanks

 

[JBean]

Sorry if this has been posted, but if not it should be.

http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/plans/EOPSupplement1a.pdf

 

[Details]

You are welcome. Not putting anyone down, just saying there appears to be a double standard when assigning blame for a NATURAL DISASTER. Everybody has made errors, no doubt. But the only errors some see are by Bush (for whatever reason) but when errors by state and local officials are pointed out well 'it's too early' or 'we just don't know' Yet it's not too early and we do know how to transparently Blame Bush! I'd appreciate your attention to the bashing of other posters who support the Pres efforts and to posters who malign his children who have nothing to do with Hurricane Katrina.

I can see errors everywhere, but not enough info to know exactly where they are. However, there is one thing that I can't avoid - this was a major disaster that everyone could see on the news.

Because of that, I don't see any way some minor clerk forgot to file a necessary paper. No way was any request related to this disaster not hand-carried through the department, if it ever reached there - I'd expect some politician to push it through (out of humanity, or a desire for recognition - either one has the same result) - just no way. Even without a procedure to say so, it's just so obvious, and even beuracrats are human, and thus afraid of being the one who messed up something this big - they'll push it through to keep it off their desk like a game of hot potato.

Because of that, I just can't accept the idea that anyone important, nor the general public, no matter how partisan, would complain if Bush sent the troops in without waiting for approval.

Because of that, I can't see how, even if it would result in political backlash, the one person with the unquestioned power to do something about this wouldn't have done it! Why didn't Bush just ignore the delusional, power-hungry governor, and just send the toops in?


The local government - sure looks like they were incompetent, and perhaps malicious and willing to let people die to make a political point - what they may have done is absolutely unforgivable - but to prove that we do need to find out where the breakdown happened in getting the necessary help there. There are conflicting reports, and none of us know exactly what paperwork and what wording (and I find it hard to imagine the government holding back over a fine point of wording when the governor is callign for help on the media) was used, what the approval process is - I just don't know enough to be able to read these docs and know if she asked for what was needed in time, or was holding back. I do know that anyone holding back aid for a political or power point is an unforgivable monster who should be criminally prosecuted.

But Bush - there is nowhere for a breakdown - he had the authority to do it, to send in the necessary help without any need for approval, and he held off. Whether the motive is fear of criticism, making a political point that democratic governors are incompetent, making a point of respecting state's rights, whatever - considering that it was obvious that this choice caused many to die, be murdered, be raped and stabbed, starve, drown - I find that lack of will to make the unpleasant decision unforgivable.

Had he done it, I'd consider him the hero of the hour - pushing past the idiot governor (and until it was mentioned just recently, I too didn't know the party of any of the local officials - and I'm a solid democrat who really doesn't like Bush in general). The buck stops there. If any President isn't able to make the hard decisions, take the criticism that will be given for absolutely ANY move he makes, he shouldn't run for that office.

 

[Dara]

Dara, I personally don't care who you blame. I don't really like you to tell me who I should blame. That's all I meant.

Thanks

I wouldn't usually (and I did not single you out). But in this case, I think we all need to hold Bush accountable because he is the president and he didn't step in. I think if we can't blame him for his failures, there is a big problem that will only get bigger. There is simply no excuse for him not to have acted sooner. Yes, I think we should all hold him accountable and blame him for what he did wrong.

And you may not care who I blame, but you did seem interested in telling me that Bush isn't (Why do you call him "Bush?" Is it an alias....lol). I answered that part of your post as well. Do you have any comments about that? You don't have to, of course; I'm just curious.

 

[tybee204]

I can see errors everywhere, but not enough info to know exactly where they are. However, there is one thing that I can't avoid - this was a major disaster that everyone could see on the news.

clipped for space

.

Very nice post Details

 

[kgeaux]

Sorry if this has been posted, but if not it should be.

http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/plans/EOPSupplement1a.pdf

That was very, very informative. Very.

It was interesting to see that hospitals were to provide their own evacuation plans. I've had to read quickly, so I'm hoping I understood that correctly--their own plans which had to be approved ahead of time.

Blanco did much right, according to the plan. Gotta go, hubby is back and needing me. See you later!

 

[TexMex]

Here is the NO cily hurricane plan




http://www.cityofno.com/portal.aspx?portal=46&tabid=26

ANNEX I: HURRICANES

RESPONSE (PHASE II: WARNING, EVACUATION, AND SHELTERING)

City of New Orleans Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan.


Conduct of an actual evacuation will be the responsibility of the Mayor of New Orleans in coordination with the Director of the Office of Emergency Preparedness, and the OEP Shelter Coordinator.

The SOP, in unison with other elements of the Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan, is designed for use in all hazard situations, including citywide evacuations in response to hurricane situations and addresses three elements of emergency response: warning, evacuation, and sheltering.

1. Warning: Formulates a comprehensive system for public information, early recognition of impending storms, and dissemination of emergency warning.

2. Evacuation: Formulates an effective procedure for orderly evacuation of residents and visitors within available warning time.

3. Sheltering: Formulates a comprehensive system of accessible shelters of adequate size.

The SOP is limited as it is not designed to address the protection of personal and real property, yet is developed to cover the total New Orleans geographic area. The timely issuance of evacuation orders critically impacts upon the successful evacuation of all citizens from high-risk areas. In determining the proper time to issue evacuation orders, there is no substitute for human judgement based upon all known circumstances surrounding local conditions and storm characteristics.

Information received from the National Hurricane Center concerning the storm's tract will allow the focusing on either a landfall, paralleling or exiting storm scenario. Information involving local conditions such as pre-hurricane rainfall, tide schedules, and the amount of pre-storm publicity, must be taken into account, as are the various known circumstances that are explained in the information summary portion of the Hurricane Evacuation Plan, in determining when an evacuation order should be issued. Any assumption regarding where and how the storm will likely make landfall involves clear and constant communication with the National Hurricane Center, the local office of the National Weather Service, State OEP and various local agencies that are monitoring either the storm's progress or other elements of the city's preparedness to weather the storm's passage.

The City of New Orleans will utilize all available resources to quickly and safely evacuate threatened areas. Those evacuated will be directed to temporary sheltering and feeding facilities as needed. When specific routes of progress are required, evacuees will be directed to those routes. Special arrangements will be made to evacuate persons unable to transport themselves or who require specific life saving assistance. Additional personnel will be recruited to assist in evacuation procedures as needed.

 

[DEPUTYDAWG]

Sorry if this has been posted, but if not it should be.

http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/plans/EOPSupplement1a.pdf

Thanks, Jelly. I just browsed through some of it, will read more later...but it's very specific. Looked good on paper.

 

[JBean]

Thanks, Jelly. I just browsed through some of it, will read more later...but it's very specific. Looked good on paper.

I will continue to look and see what the state and locals did for themselves. That is the key IMO. They must provide for their own, before counting on fed assistance.

 

[TexMex]

I can see errors everywhere, but not enough info to know exactly where they are. However, there is one thing that I can't avoid - this was a major disaster that everyone could see on the news.

Because of that, I don't see any way some minor clerk forgot to file a necessary paper. No way was any request related to this disaster not hand-carried through the department, if it ever reached there - I'd expect some politician to push it through (out of humanity, or a desire for recognition - either one has the same result) - just no way. Even without a procedure to say so, it's just so obvious, and even beuracrats are human, and thus afraid of being the one who messed up something this big - they'll push it through to keep it off their desk like a game of hot potato.

Because of that, I just can't accept the idea that anyone important, nor the general public, no matter how partisan, would complain if Bush sent the troops in without waiting for approval.

Because of that, I can't see how, even if it would result in political backlash, the one person with the unquestioned power to do something about this wouldn't have done it! Why didn't Bush just ignore the delusional, power-hungry governor, and just send the toops in?


The local government - sure looks like they were incompetent, and perhaps malicious and willing to let people die to make a political point - what they may have done is absolutely unforgivable - but to prove that we do need to find out where the breakdown happened in getting the necessary help there. There are conflicting reports, and none of us know exactly what paperwork and what wording (and I find it hard to imagine the government holding back over a fine point of wording when the governor is callign for help on the media) was used, what the approval process is - I just don't know enough to be able to read these docs and know if she asked for what was needed in time, or was holding back. I do know that anyone holding back aid for a political or power point is an unforgivable monster who should be criminally prosecuted.

But Bush - there is nowhere for a breakdown - he had the authority to do it, to send in the necessary help without any need for approval, and he held off. Whether the motive is fear of criticism, making a political point that democratic governors are incompetent, making a point of respecting state's rights, whatever - considering that it was obvious that this choice caused many to die, be murdered, be raped and stabbed, starve, drown - I find that lack of will to make the unpleasant decision unforgivable.

Had he done it, I'd consider him the hero of the hour - pushing past the idiot governor (and until it was mentioned just recently, I too didn't know the party of any of the local officials - and I'm a solid democrat who really doesn't like Bush in general). The buck stops there. If any President isn't able to make the hard decisions, take the criticism that will be given for absolutely ANY move he makes, he shouldn't run for that office.

I agree details. However it wasn't a 'clerical error'

One sign of the continuing battle over who was in charge was Governor Blanco's refusal to sign an agreement proposed by the White House to share control of National Guard forces with the federal authorities.

Under the White House plan, Lt. Gen. Russel L. Honoré would oversee both the National Guard and the active duty federal troops, reporting jointly to the president and Ms. Blanco.

"She would lose control when she had been in control from the very beginning," said Ms. Bottcher, the governor's press secretary.



It is a shame that the people responsible are more worried about their own political power (control) than getting things done.

 

[tybee204]

Tex its my understanding that this did not occur untill Friday Sept 2. After The Federal Government had stepped up with President Bush's visit to the area Friday morning. That still doesnt explain the delay from Tuesday untill Friday.

 

[JBean]

Thanks, Jelly. I just browsed through some of it, will read more later...but it's very specific. Looked good on paper.

Now if only someone had read it!
Admittedly I have to go through it more carefully.

 

[TexMex]

Tex its my understanding that this did not occur untill Friday Sept 2. After The Federal Government had stepped up with President Bush's visit to the area Friday morning. That still doesnt explain the delay from Tuesday untill Friday.

AP article Wed 31

The federal government dispatched helicopters, warships and elite SEAL water-rescue teams in one of the biggest relief operations in U.S. history, aimed at plucking residents from rooftops in the last of the "golden 72 hours" rescuers say is crucial to saving lives.

As fires burned from broken natural-gas mains, the skies above the city buzzed with National Guard and Coast Guard helicopters frantically dropping baskets to roofs where victims had been stranded since the storm roared in with a 145-mph fury Monday.

 

[BirdieBoo]

I'd appreciate your attention to the bashing of other posters who support the Pres efforts and to posters who malign his children who have nothing to do with Hurricane Katrina.

Ok, I'll put that on my list of things to do today. But first I am busy building boxes of items for people who don't have anything, and getting them ready to send.

My post did not single anyone out, my post was meant for everyone. It was not directed at you, in particular, just because it happened to be underneath yours. No one needs to post anything related to other posters, here.

 

[tybee204]

AP article Wed 31

The federal government dispatched helicopters, warships and elite SEAL water-rescue teams in one of the biggest relief operations in U.S. history, aimed at plucking residents from rooftops in the last of the "golden 72 hours" rescuers say is crucial to saving lives.

As fires burned from broken natural-gas mains, the skies above the city buzzed with National Guard and Coast Guard helicopters frantically dropping baskets to roofs where victims had been stranded since the storm roared in with a 145-mph fury Monday.

I dont think the question is whether the Federal Government didnt do anything. The question is whether they did enough, fast enough. My prior reference was to the conflict you referenced above regarding Blanco and Bush. That occured Friday evening. Long after the point of suffering and lack of response had passed critical.

 

[Details]

I agree details. However it wasn't a 'clerical error'

One sign of the continuing battle over who was in charge was Governor Blanco's refusal to sign an agreement proposed by the White House to share control of National Guard forces with the federal authorities.

Under the White House plan, Lt. Gen. Russel L. Honoré would oversee both the National Guard and the active duty federal troops, reporting jointly to the president and Ms. Blanco.

"She would lose control when she had been in control from the very beginning," said Ms. Bottcher, the governor's press secretary.



It is a shame that the people responsible are more worried about their own political power (control) than getting things done.

As I stated, I absolutely agree - although I think 'shame' is far to mellow a word. I seriously want to see criminal prosecutions here, and none of this finding a low ranking sacraficial goat to take the blame. This is a major disaster, anyone who was relying on some low ranking whatever to tell them when to do their job is at fault as much as if they made the mistake themselves (which I am certain they did - you don't let probably the biggest disaster in recent American history be handled by an underling).

But we've seen a bit of both directions there - some things saying she did request, others saying she didn't - there's a small amount of room for doubt there that maybe she did her job. I believe she's definitely going to be found to be one of the roadblocks, maybe a substantial one - but I can't call it proven yet. As I said, that's absolutely unforgivable.

But still - Bush didn't need her signature. She needed his agreement to get the troops, but he didn't need her. That's why I say that there is a definite problem with Bush, and a likely one with the governor. Either of them could have resolved it, but Bush had the ultimate power to do so without her agreement - and he should have.

 

[TexMex]

I dont think the question is whether the Federal Government didnt do anything. The question is whether they did enough, fast enough. My prior reference was to the conflict you referenced above regarding Blanco and Bush. That occured Friday evening. Long after the point of suffering and lack of response had passed critical.

I know ty

I thought that's what the poster I addrressed was referring to---a clerical error being to blame about who is in charge of the Nat Guard

The levee broke Tuesday and the Coast was picking up people off rooftops
Tuesday. By Wed, Navy Seals and more helicopters.

This is a disaster the size of which this country has no experience dealing with on local, state or fed level. That things did not go perfectly is no suprise.

 

[Details]

Tuesday morning, it should have been obvious that this went from a minor emergency to an absolute disaster. Anyone who knew anything about New Orleans, and all the media attention before the hurricane about the worries that it would break the levees knew what would happen if they broke. From the instant that happened, getting the national guard and resources out there, evacuating everyone out of there possible should have become a top priority.

Heck, I saw that news, and the graphic of the shape of New Orleans (the infamous bowl), and knew right there that the city was probably lost. It's shocking, and I can see shock and disbelief working for a little while, but there are plenty of disaster experts accessible and probably working for the government at all levels (federal, state, city) to tell what that meant.

Right at that point, everything should have been going in high gear.

FEMA ticks me off - keeping needed supplies out - I get the feeling they were a little territorial on the disaster - but since they didn't have the situation handled, they should have been welcoming help, not blockading it. Doubly so when they allowed the media in!

 

[Details]

This is a disaster the size of which this country has no experience dealing with on local, state or fed level. That things did not go perfectly is no suprise.

This is completely unprecedented - and although expected, I don't think anyone really realized the full human cost of the plans they had, the disaster scenarios they knew could happen.

One thing - I don't see how any state could be ready to handle even the first 72 hours of something of this size - that FEMA bit seems a lot of a cop-out. This isn't a typical disaster that hits a few city blocks - this is an entire, densely populated city. It applies to a normal disaster, but something of this scale - you can't just go by the rules. Disasters don't go by the rules.