I can't find a hole in this theory...

I find this motive unbelievable & I am trying to figure out how to post why-b/c I don't want to offend or disrespect anyone who is an abuse victim.I am just trying to figure out what happened that night like everyone else..
JB was 6yrs old and from what I have read over the yrs-MOST sexual abuse victims don't tell about the abuse for yrs.I would find it very hard to believe she (6 yrs old) told a grown adult man-esp-her father...I am telling mom what you are doing to me & John got scared & had to kill her for fear of getting caught..Most young victims tell on the abuser when the abuser is not around,they don't tell the abuser to their faces that they are going to tell on them.
This was Christmas Day Night-If John went to her room that night-got her up,fed her pineapple,took her downstairs to abuse her-What do you think he is saying to her all this time.I can hear him telling her-OH JB-I told Secret Santa all about you & he is going to make a very special trip to MI just for you.She would be all excited & giggling about getting more presents..all of this while he is abusing her-she is not fighting him for fear-he will tell secret Santa she is being bad- she just plays along like he tells her..I don't see her screaming or fighting him & saying-I am telling on you! I see John using Secret Santa as a bribe to get what he wants & her going along in a complying way and then back to bed!! KWIM
Something else happened that night to scare her enough to scream-yes-I believe the neighbor heard the scream.Now I can see a scerario where JB is saying to B-I am telling Mom on you & he does something to make her scream & he hits her!!
I am see more of a motive for B than John on THIS NIGHT!!


I am sorry if I offended anyone with my post-it was not my intention to do so!!


I don't know about the secret santa stuff, but I agree that JBR telling on JR, and therefore JR needing to kill her is a less likely scenario. If she did threaten to tell, I think he'd talk her out of it. And I suspect you are probably right that she didn't threaten to tell.

But there is another reason for her death that still fits doc's theory. As Cyril Wecht theorized, the garrotte may have been part of an asphyxiation sex game. Possible.

It doesn't make sense, to me, that JR/PR conspired to have the police find a body and a note. It strikes me as a very unlikely plan. So I'm sticking with the doc theory, even though I can't guess exactly why JB was killed.

I do agree with you though, killing JB over a threat to tell seems unlikely. I'm sure JR figured he could talk his way out of that situation, if it even happened.
 
Can someone in plain English, summarize the vaginal injuries...that night's and the prior? because I'm having a problem with comprehension. What exactly was meant by digital penetration? Also, the other day, I read a link that mentioned penis penetration. Is this legit? because this would go a long way in pointing to an abuser. Right now, I'm thinking about PR's rough cleaning of JBR, and the reported planned intervention. Was that plan ever verified? because if it was, it could have played into motive. moo
 
Can someone in plain English, summarize the vaginal injuries...that night's and the prior? because I'm having a problem with comprehension. What exactly was meant by digital penetration? Also, the other day, I read a link that mentioned penis penetration. Is this legit? because this would go a long way in pointing to an abuser. Right now, I'm thinking about PR's rough cleaning of JBR, and the reported planned intervention. Was that plan ever verified? because if it was, it could have played into motive. moo
Dodie, as I understand it JBR's vaginal tissues showed signs of chronic inflammation, i.e. something irritating them on a regular basis in addition to the acute injury from the paintbrush handle on the night of her death. Her vagina was assessed by some doctors reviewing the ME's findings as being much larger than the typical 6-year-old's.

The ME who performed the autopsy thought that JBR had been penetrated by one or more fingers, but not subjected to full-on penile intercourse, since her hymen was pushed aside but intact. However, if her vagina was indeed much larger than others in her age group - which was not a finding of the original ME - then she might have been penetrated by a penis, even though her hymen was not actually torn. (Although the ME does not explicitly say so, it makes sense that she might have been penetrated by objects, in addition to - or instead of - fingers or penises.)

At autopsy, there appeared to be an acute injury, with bleeding, from the broken paintbrush on the night of her death - a laceration, in all likelihood - with a small fragment of the wooden handle left behind. This was in addition to the chronic inflammation (i.e., moderate engorgement) of her vaginal wall.

If I am wrong on any of these points, I hope others will correct me.
 
I don't know about the secret santa stuff, but I agree that JBR telling on JR, and therefore JR needing to kill her is a less likely scenario. If she did threaten to tell, I think he'd talk her out of it. And I suspect you are probably right that she didn't threaten to tell.

But there is another reason for her death that still fits doc's theory. As Cyril Wecht theorized, the garrotte may have been part of an asphyxiation sex game. Possible.

It doesn't make sense, to me, that JR/PR conspired to have the police find a body and a note. It strikes me as a very unlikely plan. So I'm sticking with the doc theory, even though I can't guess exactly why JB was killed.

I do agree with you though, killing JB over a threat to tell seems unlikely. I'm sure JR figured he could talk his way out of that situation, if it even happened.

MOO-I just don't see this as part of this crime.JR may be a lot of things-but this I just don't see him doing to anyone-let alone his own child.And I do not believe the evidence supports this either-JMOO
 
I don't know about the secret santa stuff, but I agree that JBR telling on JR, and therefore JR needing to kill her is a less likely scenario. If she did threaten to tell, I think he'd talk her out of it. And I suspect you are probably right that she didn't threaten to tell.

But there is another reason for her death that still fits doc's theory. As Cyril Wecht theorized, the garrotte may have been part of an asphyxiation sex game. Possible.

It doesn't make sense, to me, that JR/PR conspired to have the police find a body and a note. It strikes me as a very unlikely plan. So I'm sticking with the doc theory, even though I can't guess exactly why JB was killed.

I do agree with you though, killing JB over a threat to tell seems unlikely. I'm sure JR figured he could talk his way out of that situation, if it even happened.

All that was needed was JR being AFRAID that he'd be caught, found out, etc. Who knows what scared him? JB might have seemed sad and strange (we know she was crying a few days before and telling people she didn't feel pretty), JR might have been frightened that all the pediatrician visits would expose him, JR might simply have been frightened that in five years or ten years JB would tell on him.

DocG's theory does NOT hinge on anything to do with JR being afraid that JB was going to tell on him. Not a thing.
 
Dodie, as I understand it JBR's vaginal tissues showed signs of chronic inflammation, i.e. something irritating them on a regular basis in addition to the acute injury from the paintbrush handle on the night of her death. Her vagina was assessed by some doctors reviewing the ME's findings as being much larger than the typical 6-year-old's.

The ME who performed the autopsy thought that JBR had been penetrated by one or more fingers, but not subjected to full-on penile intercourse, since her hymen was pushed aside but intact. However, if her vagina was indeed much larger than others in her age group - which was not a finding of the original ME - then she might have been penetrated by a penis, even though her hymen was not actually torn. (Although the ME does not explicitly say so, it makes sense that she might have been penetrated by objects, in addition to - or instead of - fingers or penises.)

At autopsy, there appeared to be an acute injury, with bleeding, from the broken paintbrush on the night of her death - a laceration, in all likelihood - with a small fragment of the wooden handle left behind. This was in addition to the chronic inflammation (i.e., moderate engorgement) of her vaginal wall.

If I am wrong on any of these points, I hope others will correct me.
Thanks. Would douching fall under the category of digital penetration? and could rough douching cause her prior injuries? Also, could a dr distinguish the difference between figer injuries and object injuries, or would he have to make an eduated guess? Since store bought douhes are designed for ease and comfort, there wouldn't be a lot of abrasions, etc, but that's assuming that they're used as directed. IDK, but IMO, 'digital' penetration, doesn't necessarily point to an adult male abuser, but penal penetration Would point away from a female abuser. I'm just trying to get straight what JB's prior abuse consisted of. moo
 
All that was needed was JR being AFRAID that he'd be caught, found out, etc. Who knows what scared him? JB might have seemed sad and strange (we know she was crying a few days before and telling people she didn't feel pretty), JR might have been frightened that all the pediatrician visits would expose him, JR might simply have been frightened that in five years or ten years JB would tell on him.

DocG's theory does NOT hinge on anything to do with JR being afraid that JB was going to tell on him. Not a thing.

I should prolly ask docg this-but you seem to know his theory pretty well-what is docg saying is JR motive then?
If JR was that afraid-why didn't he kill her before this night-its pretty sadistic to kill your daughter on CDN cause you are scared you MIGHT get caught or from the doc visits which happened how many times-why didn't he kill her after say 3 visit or 25 visit-why this night?
I find it hard to believe she was sad after getting all those presents-new bike and getting more presents later in the week!ALL MOO

ETA-From Docg blog-
he writes-John became convinced that night she was going to expose him!
 
Would douching fall under the category of digital penetration? and could rough douching cause her prior injuries? Also, could a dr distinguish the difference between figer injuries and object injuries, or would he have to make an eduated guess? Since store bought douhes are designed for ease and comfort, there wouldn't be a lot of abrasions, etc, but that's assuming that they're used as directed. IDK, but IMO, 'digital' penetration, doesn't necessarily point to an adult male abuser, but penal penetration Would point away from a female abuser. I'm just trying to get straight what JB's prior abuse consisted of. moo
I think that when it comes to determining what was used for penetration, size would be the main issue. So yes, a douchetip would be close to - and as smooth as - a finger in size and contour. Shape (whether of a finger or object) would come into play if there were definite sharp edges, ridges, etc. In a child's vagina, a douchetip would probably be sufficient to cause chronic inflammation and push the hymen aside - even though a douchetip is smooth. Even so, rough douching would have abraded the sides of the vagina and contributed to inflammation.

Digital penetration, in and of itself, doesn't point to either an adult or child: a small penis, a large finger, a woman's finger...impossible to tell which it was (although a woman's finger might have had longer nails than a man's, producing a recognizable pattern of abrasion). Penile penetration by an adult male would typically result in a greater degree of inflammation and enlargement of the vagina, but so would penetration by an object - or more than one finger. It could be that a combination of all of these was involved in JBR's situation.

I am not a doctor, of course, but I have some acquaintance with these matters because I transcribed autopsies/pathology/sex abuse reports for several years at local hospitals. Technological advances might have made it possible to be more specific nowadays, but at the time of JBR's death, this was probably as much as could be deduced.
 
Dodie, as I understand it JBR's vaginal tissues showed signs of chronic inflammation, i.e. something irritating them on a regular basis in addition to the acute injury from the paintbrush handle on the night of her death. Her vagina was assessed by some doctors reviewing the ME's findings as being much larger than the typical 6-year-old's.

The ME who performed the autopsy thought that JBR had been penetrated by one or more fingers, but not subjected to full-on penile intercourse, since her hymen was pushed aside but intact. However, if her vagina was indeed much larger than others in her age group - which was not a finding of the original ME - then she might have been penetrated by a penis, even though her hymen was not actually torn. (Although the ME does not explicitly say so, it makes sense that she might have been penetrated by objects, in addition to - or instead of - fingers or penises.)

At autopsy, there appeared to be an acute injury, with bleeding, from the broken paintbrush on the night of her death - a laceration, in all likelihood - with a small fragment of the wooden handle left behind. This was in addition to the chronic inflammation (i.e., moderate engorgement) of her vaginal wall.

If I am wrong on any of these points, I hope others will correct me.


Not wrong, but buying into the prevailing interpretation which may be, in part, wrong. She may have been jabbed with the paint brush handle, but that is not certain. The reason people think that is their interpretation of the autopsy report where it says "birefringent material". People think that means cellulose, which is birefringent, and they think it comes from the wooden handle, which is a possibility. But many things are birefringent, including cotton fibers -because of the cellulose in the cell walls. So it may be nothing more than a cotton fiber from her day of the week panties, which were 100% cotton.

That said, I do not have as many books on the case as some others, and maybe so and so said such and such and it was determined that "birefringent material" is from the wood handle of the paintbrush. So maybe someone else will weigh in.

Birefringent by the way means double refraction of light. (I've oversimplified, for my sake).

I saw something about penile penetration too, but can't find it now.
 
I think that when it comes to determining what was used for penetration, size would be the main issue. So yes, a douchetip would be close to - and as smooth as - a finger in size and contour. Shape (whether of a finger or object) would come into play if there were definite sharp edges, ridges, etc. In a child's vagina, a douchetip would probably be sufficient to cause chronic inflammation and push the hymen aside - even though a douchetip is smooth. Even so, rough douching would have abraded the sides of the vagina and contributed to inflammation.

Digital penetration, in and of itself, doesn't point to either an adult or child: a small penis, a large finger, a woman's finger...impossible to tell which it was (although a woman's finger might have had longer nails than a man's, producing a recognizable pattern of abrasion). Penile penetration by an adult male would typically result in a greater degree of inflammation and enlargement of the vagina, but so would penetration by an object - or more than one finger. It could be that a combination of all of these was involved in JBR's situation.

I am not a doctor, of course, but I have some acquaintance with these matters because I transcribed autopsies/pathology/sex abuse reports for several years at local hospitals. Technological advances might have made it possible to be more specific nowadays, but at the time of JBR's death, this was probably as much as could be deduced.
Have we heard if the examiners were aware of the supposed douching?
 
I think that when it comes to determining what was used for penetration, size would be the main issue. So yes, a douchetip would be close to - and as smooth as - a finger in size and contour. Shape (whether of a finger or object) would come into play if there were definite sharp edges, ridges, etc. In a child's vagina, a douchetip would probably be sufficient to cause chronic inflammation and push the hymen aside - even though a douchetip is smooth. Even so, rough douching would have abraded the sides of the vagina and contributed to inflammation.

Digital penetration, in and of itself, doesn't point to either an adult or child: a small penis, a large finger, a woman's finger...impossible to tell which it was (although a woman's finger might have had longer nails than a man's, producing a recognizable pattern of abrasion). Penile penetration by an adult male would typically result in a greater degree of inflammation and enlargement of the vagina, but so would penetration by an object - or more than one finger. It could be that a combination of all of these was involved in JBR's situation.

I am not a doctor, of course, but I have some acquaintance with these matters because I transcribed autopsies/pathology/sex abuse reports for several years at local hospitals. Technological advances might have made it possible to be more specific nowadays, but at the time of JBR's death, this was probably as much as could be deduced.


On another thread there has been quite a discussion of the maglite vs a golf club as the instrument that was used on her skull. The golf club seems the more likely implement. The reason I mention it here is that the flashlight must have been wiped down for some reason, so could it be the flashlight was inserted in her vagina?
 
All that was needed was JR being AFRAID that he'd be caught, found out, etc. Who knows what scared him? JB might have seemed sad and strange (we know she was crying a few days before and telling people she didn't feel pretty), JR might have been frightened that all the pediatrician visits would expose him, JR might simply have been frightened that in five years or ten years JB would tell on him.

DocG's theory does NOT hinge on anything to do with JR being afraid that JB was going to tell on him. Not a thing.


No, it doesn't hinge on him being afraid, but it does hinge on him killing JB. We're just speculating on what the reason might be.
 
Not wrong, but buying into the prevailing interpretation which may be, in part, wrong. She may have been jabbed with the paint brush handle, but that is not certain. The reason people think that is their interpretation of the autopsy report where it says "birefringent material". People think that means cellulose, which is birefringent, and they think it comes from the wooden handle, which is a possibility. But many things are birefringent, including cotton fibers -because of the cellulose in the cell walls. So it may be nothing more than a cotton fiber from her day of the week panties, which were 100% cotton.

That said, I do not have as many books on the case as some others, and maybe so and so said such and such and it was determined that "birefringent material" is from the wood handle of the paintbrush. So maybe someone else will weigh in.

Birefringent by the way means double refraction of light. (I've oversimplified, for my sake).
Thanks Chrishope, excellent points.
 
On another thread there has been quite a discussion of the maglite vs a golf club as the instrument that was used on her skull. The golf club seems the more likely implement. The reason I mention it here is that the flashlight must have been wiped down for some reason, so could it be the flashlight was inserted in her vagina?
Quite possibly - the circumference and rounded edges of the handle-end could account for vaginal enlargement and chronic inflammation (if used repeatedly for this purpose during JBR's lifetime - not postmortem).
 
Quite possibly - the circumference and rounded edges of the handle-end could account for vaginal enlargement and chronic inflammation (if used repeatedly for this purpose during JBR's lifetime - not postmortem).

I completely and totally disagree.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I think the point is, we just don't know. The damage could have been caused by almost anything within certain parameters.
 
It is irrelevant when it cannot lead you to KNOW who committed a crime. And there is zero "behavioral evidence" that can be used to find PR guilty.

Behavioral analysis is used when it can AID an investigation. In this crime, it simply can't.


your opinion. i disagree.
 

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
278
Guests online
596
Total visitors
874

Forum statistics

Threads
625,846
Messages
18,511,838
Members
240,858
Latest member
SilentHill
Back
Top