I no longer believe that...

[KsStormy]

Now you are thinking what I have believed all along. The entire day (or most of it) on Monday was staging....

I have wondered that ,too...but think how calculating & cold one would have to be....but from what I have seen/experienced, I don't think it's out of the question at all.

 

[norest4thewicked]

I have wondered that ,too...but think how calculating & cold one would have to be....but from what I have seen/experienced, I don't think it's out of the question at all.

I've thought about this case until my head was about to explode and this is what I have come up with, gone away from it, but always come back to it. There was just something wrong with this from the beginning. Statistics show that the most likely person to kill a child is one of the parents. I don't feel that this was intentional, but I think that Lisa died accidentally through neglect or other accident and JI insisted on this scenario because he was adamant about not losing his son that he had fought so hard for to get. They set it up...all of it.

I don't have an answer for the phones, but I truly believe that this is what happened to Lisa.

 

[redheadedgal]

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/missing-baby-lisas-parents-microscope-14752251

in this vid DB states in regard to the harsh questioning by police/taking a LDT "if i have to go through all this to get her back i don't care"... so then why did she and does she still refuse to speak to LE without jeremy?




all talk no action... contradictions... inconsistencies... lies...

 

[iamnotagolem]

I find it interesting which statements of Lisa's mother some choose to believe and cite here as evidence of her wrongdoing (such as following crime and needing an alibi) and which they choose to discount because it doesn't fit their theory (such as Lisa's size/weight).

Lisa's weight has nothing to do with my theory at all. When Lisa was first reported missing I asked the media to try to get an accurate weight because I felt it was important if she was indeed kidnapped. I specifically asked both Jim Spellman and the PI whose name escapes me, if they had ever verified her weight because it seems like a very extreme exaggeration and such an important detail when a baby is missing. Lisa was a blond hair blue eyed baby much like millions of other babies, she was quite nondescript there is nothing about her appearance to make her stand out among millions. If she truly weighed 30 lbs, it would be huge in locating her as a missing baby.

I don't know what statements have been lies or truth, but I do know that Lisa did NOT, could NOT weigh 30 Lbs based on the pictures we've seen unless if her entire family consists of adult giants and her brothers would have to be extremely large for her to look normal next to them.

 

[Little Ol Me]

in this vid DB states in regard to the harsh questioning by police/taking a LDT "if i have to go through all this to get her back i don't care"... so then why did she and does she still refuse to speak to LE without jeremy?


Obviously I can't answer that question, I don't know why.
I can guess, but I'd like to hear her reason, before I make a judgement about it.
If LE has spacific questions that only DB can answer, why does it matter if JI is present or not? If it is important to the investigation, why does it matter if JI is present or not?

 

[Deleted member 39678]

What was said and what is fact are clearly not the same. Lisa would have set some records if she was 10 months old and weighed 30 lbs. 22-24 lbs would put her in the 99th percentile. Logic does not conclude that Lisa weighed 30 lbs.

18-20 is a far better estimate since the parents couldn't be bothered to look at her stats from her 9 month WCC

I could say I weigh 30 lbs and I don't mind you believing it. But it's most likely not true.

Here's a description of Lisa's height and weight from a CNN article dated 10/17/11.

Lisa is described as being 30 inches tall with blue eyes and blond hair, according to police. She weighs between 26 and 30 pounds and was last seen wearing purple shorts and a purple shirt with white kittens on it.

From this description, it seems that they were unsure of her weight. I looked at a growth chart for girls from birth to 36 months. Lisa was almost 11 months old when she disappeared so I looked at the 10 and a half mark on the chart.

According to this CDC chart, 30 inches at 10 1/2 months is above average at 95 percentile. A weight at the same age and percentile shows it to be 24 lbs. That's 2 lbs less than the lower weight that was said in the CNN article. So that's a bit of difference but not a lot.

If I look at your 18 to 20 lbs estimate, at Lisa's age it comes up to well below average to average. That doesn't correlate with a height of 30 inches which is in the 95th percentile which would suggest a much greater weight.

I see where you say that the parents couldn't have been bothered to look at Lisa's 9 month Well Child Care stats. If you have seen those stats posted somewhere please share. What if she was above average and weighed 22 or 23 lbs at that age and 2 months later when she was taken they guessed a bit high.

I agree that a weight of 30 lbs seems unlikely for Lisa when she was taken from her home. But 26 lbs seems reasonable. Personally, I couldn't tell if a 11 month old baby weighed 20 lbs or 30 lbs by looking at one. Using a two dimensional photograph to estimate weight would be difficult in my opinion so I'm not seeing how someone can say how much Lisa weighed by simply looking at a photo of her.

Why would Lisa's parents purposely lie about her weight? I seriously doubt that they exaggerated Lisa's weight at the very beginning of this case in order to refute a theory of her being placed in a bucket and dumped into the river. MOO

http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/17/justice/missouri-missing-girl/index.html

http://www.cdc.gov/growthcharts/data/set1clinical/cj41c018.pdf

http://www.cdc.gov/growthcharts/clinical_charts.htm

 

[KsStormy]

Well, we don't know for sure which photo is the most recent one of Lisa, to make a guesstimate of her size. The ones that were supposed to be the most recent, of her with family members at a birthday party, to me they look like she is younger than in the one standing against the glass front door. When all we have to go on is the word of the parents, who have already been proven to be unreliable by their refusal to work with the local police, anything is possible.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Well, we don't know for sure which photo is the most recent one of Lisa, to make a guesstimate of her size. The ones that were supposed to be the most recent, of her with family members at a birthday party, to me they look like she is younger than in the one standing against the glass front door. When all we have to go on is the word of the parents, who have already been proven to be unreliable by their refusal to work with the local police, anything is possible.

I think that you can get a size of someone from a photograph, but I don't think that you can get an accurate weight of someone from a photo. MOO.

 

[norest4thewicked]

Honestly, the difference between 20 and 30 pounds aren't even going to make a difference really at the end of the day. If a kidnapper could carry a 20-30 pound child out of the house, why couldn't a 20-30 pound child be put into a container of some sort and carried out as well? The fact remains that Lisa WAS removed from that house...so, obviously, she wasn't too heavy.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Honestly, the difference between 20 and 30 pounds aren't even going to make a difference really at the end of the day. If a kidnapper could carry a 20-30 pound child out of the house, why couldn't a 20-30 pound child be put into a container of some sort and carried out as well? The fact remains that Lisa WAS removed from that house...so, obviously, she wasn't too heavy.

I agree that removing a small child like Lisa Irwin from her home is no problem physically. I think that the issue is did DB or JI remove Lisa from the home? And when it comes down to a theory where Lisa is put into a container of a certain size, then people will wonder if it's even possible. MOO

 

[Donjeta]

Well, if we are to believe the sightings Lisa wasn't even put into any clothing or otherwise covered or contained in any manner. Just carried off cool as a cucumber.

But I don't think 5-10 lbs would make that much of a difference for a baby's body to be fitted in a container.
In the Doe Network there are babies and children that have been thrown away in pretty much anything from diaper bags to freezers, I'm sure whoever took Lisa away from that house would have found something to fit her in.

 

[Melon]

That would have to be a pretty large bucket. We buy dog food in 37lb bags, and it completely fills two 5 gallon buckets within an inch of the top. That would be roughly 18.5 pounds per bucket. Unless someone ground her into hamburg (I hate even typing that), fitting a child inside a 5 gallon bucket would be quite a feat, not to mention adding weight to it as well.

Do you believe the Brandos lied about seeing Lisa on Monday?

BBM (also apologies for the backtrack and off topicness of my reply) Out of curiousity, I looked up the density of a human body (http://www.quora.com/Science/What-is-the-density-of-human-body#) and a weight to volume conversion chart (http://www.onlineconversion.com/weight_volume_cooking.htm) and according to that an object with a density of 1.08 g/ml weighing 30# is equal to 3.329 gallons. This a rough conversion but I do believe my math is correct and method of conversion sound. Since BL did not have adult sized bones, I do think its quite likely she would fit in a 5 gallon bucket. I think if one were of a notion to dispose of a small child's body, you wouldn't need as large of a container as you might think.:moo:

A 5 gallon sheetrock mud or paint bucket (as would likely be present on most construction sites and quite possibly on a site where some sort of remodel was taking place), a bucket from stacking blocks, any of those lidded tote containers all of us seem to have...... would be of sufficient size. :moo::moo:

 

[norest4thewicked]

BBM (also apologies for the backtrack and off topicness of my reply) Out of curiousity, I looked up the density of a human body (http://www.quora.com/Science/What-is-the-density-of-human-body#) and a weight to volume conversion chart (http://www.onlineconversion.com/weight_volume_cooking.htm) and according to that an object with a density of 1.08 g/ml weighing 30# is equal to 3.329 gallons. This a rough conversion but I do believe my math is correct and method of conversion sound. Since BL did not have adult sized bones, I do think its quite likely she would fit in a 5 gallon bucket. I think if one were of a notion to dispose of a small child's body, you wouldn't need as large of a container as you might think.:moo:

A 5 gallon sheetrock mud or paint bucket (as would likely be present on most construction sites and quite possibly on a site where some sort of remodel was taking place), a bucket from stacking blocks, any of those lidded tote containers all of us seem to have...... would be of sufficient size. :moo::moo:

BBM - This is where I think that JI comes into the picture for me.

 

[KsStormy]

BBM - This is where I think that JI comes into the picture for me.

They were in the process of remodeling or painting, there are pics of paint buckets & etc in the boys room when she went missing. I wonder if they used that heavy plastic to put down on the floor ?

 

[KsStormy]

DB or JI did anything deliberately to Baby Lisa. BL, as far as I believe, died either by drowning in the tub (because of DB being drunk), or being over medicated (by either of the parents), falling off the back deck, or baby shaking(unintentional - do to drinking)


The photos; the way DB dressed BL, the fact that she named her after her mother, all the love I've seen shown by DB; this wasn't deliberate (MOO).

I don't excuse either one of them, and I so hate what happened to this little baby. I hate the fact that they didn't own up; call 911, and not exploit LE, and other agencies, and our hearts!!!!

One possibility is that Deborah did something to Lisa, & told Jeremy that his son did it on accident. That would explain how he seems so sure that she didn't do anything... she convinced him that his son did it, & they are banding together due to that. How many times do you hear of people being "closer than ever" after a child goes missing? How often do they NOT blame each other?

 

[Whisperer]

I am guessing the FBI couldn't be bothered either since on their fliers it says the same, 30 lbs. I would think LE would have checked her doctors' records.

Nope, ...never saw LE verify anything for a poster when the info comes from the witness. Many posters are inaccurate. Haleigh Cummings poster was wrong when it described what she was wearing...as they found the clothing in the MH.

Some victims disappear w/o clothing but doubtful that would be said on a missing person poster...that would indicate foul play, not missing...and nobody would be looking.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Nope, ...never saw LE verify anything for a poster when the info comes from the witness. Many posters are inaccurate. Haleigh Cummings poster was wrong when it described what she was wearing...as they found the clothing in the MH.

Some victims disappear w/o clothing but doubtful that would be said on a missing person poster...that would indicate foul play, not missing...and nobody would be looking.

BBM

Do you know this to be a fact? If so can you please share where you got this information.

 

[4Jacy]

Whisp, I'm so glad you worked in the system and can explain to us the way things are done. Your experience is greatly appreciated. :yourock:

 

[Deleted member 39678]

When I was following this case, I remember thinking that the mother might have been drunk and accidentally rolled over on the baby and killed her.

She says that lisa weighed 32lbs. I don't find that possible with Lisa being so big. It always seems that we want to give parents the benefit of the doubt and think it is "an accident"...and covered up. Most of the time that is not the case.

Baby Lisa was not that big. I doubt she was 30 lbs. She could be wrapped and concealed very easily. She could fit in a small duffel bag or even a small backpack.

I also think she was disappeared long before the morning reported. JI arranged to be gone during the crucial hours. He wanted and needed an alibi.

I get confused when a member posts something that suggests that there may have been an accident and it's said that Lisa weighed too much for that to happen. And then if someone posts about disposing of Lisa's body, she has to be much smaller.

 

[KsStormy]

I get confused when a member posts something that suggests that there may have been an accident and it's said that Lisa weighed too much for that to happen. And then if someone posts about disposing of Lisa's body, she has to be much smaller.

What?? Lisa's mother must weigh at least 200lbs, so how could she not be able to roll over & suffocate her, or be able to easily carry her away? Have you SEEN Deborah Bradley? She has some girth to her. She would have NO problem harming/disposing of such a tiny infant. Your post makes no sense, IMO. Unless she lied about the "most recent pics", no way that baby weighed 30 lbs. Lisa was NOT overweight, according to the pics that were supposedly her last pics. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out. :snooty: