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IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #13
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lishac23
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It is kind of weird. In giving them the benefit of the doubt though...their computers (along with everyone elses) and phones were confinscated by LE. i think they got their phones back (but may not have internet access/facebook on them) but I don't think they got their computers back. May explain why they haven't been able to access facebook.
lishac23
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Thanks...I wasn't aware. I took the service off of an old phone and my son tried to play angry birds and it wouldn't work. I should probably do better research before blabbing off info... :blushing:
OMFG I caught up!
Got some thoughts still holding from the previous thread:
Otto said:
This is possible, however, if you see my pic of the beginning of Maiden Lane, you would have to know it was there before you decided to pull a vehicle into it. There is nothing from Arbutus, or from the lift station parking spot, that would indicate that you could get a vehicle back there. It wasn't until I went looking that I discovered it (been by there hundreds of times before), and even then I had to walk several steps into the woods before it became apparent that it was some kind of road/path.
Additionally, walking between the lake and the fence would be plainly visible from the other side of the lake, and would appear suspicious, at least to me. I don't think there's much room to do so, and if you came through the gate, it seems you'd have to close it behind you to get to that area.
Reannan said:
BBM...a very important point, IMO. I live here. I walk by Maiden Lane 2-3 times/week. I've looked in there and have seen a clearing, I know there is room to fish in those woods, but have never considered it possible to get a vehicle back there. I never knew how large the clearing was, I never knew how easy to get there from Arbutus, and I pass it on Arbutus frequently as well - walking (meaning I have time to notice) - and have never known about it. Other people obviously do know about it.
GrainneDhu said:
SBM...this is not entirely true. My pic shows the trail from Maiden Lane, as well as Maiden Lane from the trail. What is not clear and evident from either spot is how to get efficiently to the other (i.e, around the fence, over the fence, along the fence to the jetty - all seem relatively cumbersome.)
From this thread:
Again, this route would be plainly visible, and seem quite odd/suspicious, to anyone at the lake parking area. I think its possible the girls were on the jetty (purse got set down) and were lured over to the Maiden Lane area on their own. Two little-ish girls moving quickly would be far less noticeable than two girls being directed against their will by an adult in that spot. I still tend to believe that they just went around the fence to the east, however. Less risk, less brush, and, if they were being led or directed, easier. If they went along between the lake and the fence, they likely went by themselves, of their own volition.
You would never notice that you could drive in there from Arbutus, unless you knew it was there. It appeared as a wall of undergrowth, and I only noticed the smashed foliage indicating a vehicle had been there. I went back to investigate, and discovered Maiden Lane. I'm sure others knew about it, but I, as a local who frequents the lake, had no clue.
No, the bikes were not found at "the end" of the trail. The trail is continuous in both directions from where the bikes were found.
As to them being staged, if you came from the east, you would have to walk over a hundred feet with the bikes from Arbutus just to reach the trail (unless you very suspiciously pulled your vehicle down the grassy area to the trail). Then another several hundred feet to the gate, the last several of which you would be visible from the other side of the lake AND you'd never know if someone was going to approach this area from the west at any second.
If you staged the bikes and approached from Maiden Lane, you'd have to get around/over the fence. If you went around the east end of the fence, you'd be hidden until you got to the trail, then you'd be just as vulnerable as the previous example. If you went west along the fence to the jetty/gate, you'd be visible and suspicious, carrying two bikes along a narrow strip on the opposite side of the fence from the trail, between fence and lake, on ground that would be treacherous even w/o bikes. You could toss the bikes over the fence, but then, for them to get over to the gate, you'd need to get over the fence as well, only to move the bikes several feet west, again into view from across the lake.
Remember, if the bikes were found right at the gate, it's visible from across the lake. Obscured, but visible. Pics of LE, etc, from across the lake indicate this very well.
My guess is that, since the dogs tracked the girls from the bikes to the Maiden Lane area, that the bikes were not staged there, but left there by the girls, who then moved to the woods, either by exploring, by being lured, or by being directed under force.
Just judging by what has been said, my impression is that the bikes were found laying on the trail, and since at that time there was no suspicion of foul play, they were leaned on the fence to allow ATV's and/or other LE vehicles and personnel to move through the area easier. By the time Abben arrived, they were not as found. Just my interpretation.
Agreed. You can see that jetty from the parking area. Its kind of the focal point on the lake from over there. Someone moving between lake and fence would be very visible, and very interesting to watch, IMO.
BBM...people who fish Meyer's Lake, other locals, may have better knowledge than I. Neighbors, etc. But someone just passing through town? No effing way, IMO. As for the grassy area, I've never seen a vehicle driven on that besides city maintenance or LE, and the latter only after this incident.
100% agree. Unless they went out on that jetty, and decided to somehow make the walk to the woods from there, which I've discussed above would be treacherous and visible, and would draw attention, IMO, of anyone at the lake that day.
I will get over there hopefully with the camera again. Any other pics ppl want? Keep in mind that the lake level has not recovered from the partial draining, and likely will not this year. BTW, I do have photos of the jetty from the woods, but not of the woods from the jetty. I was there with my kids, and didn't want to drag them out there (or demonstrate that going through that gate was acceptable behavior).
BBM...that bolded part is essentially what I said the moment I heard of all this, and was probably among my very first comments on WS.
Not likely. They would be very visible from across the lake (see all the pics of the area taken from across the lake), and would likely draw attention of anyone at the lake's parking area or docks (i.e., fishermen, etc).
The opposite side of the road has opened, so now you ARE moving by there quickly. At the time of the disappearance, traffic was much slower and the lanes felt much tighter.
Most, if not all, parks in E'dale and Elk Run can be completely viewed from a car on the road. Even most of Meyer's Lake can, except the relatively tiny area in the SE corner, and what is blocked by the island.
Additionally, its one of the few parks that is a "destination" from the trail, and cannot be completely seen from a nearby road.
Keep in mind the video shows them riding for the duration of a second or two, half-block from home, and over a mile from the lake. Its not likely they maintained that pace all the way, even if they tried.
No, the jetty was built up when the lake was drained a few years ago (after this pic). When I first moved here 5-6 yrs ago, the drain was just an opening in the surface of the lake. I think it was 1-2 yrs ago that they built that jetty up, so that it is now always well above the surface. I think that was the point of building it up, to allow easier access to that drain.
I believe the water level on that day is best shown in the pics of LE walking along the shoreline. The area that has NO vegetation, was only recently exposed. Any area that was not under water would have had weeds growing on it.
The drainage pipe, and the jetty, were fully visible from the trail, and from across the lake, at the time of the abduction.
I, too, think it possible that the girls were on Maiden Lane, by their own choosing, when they found trouble. Whether they themselves knew about it before this day, just discovered it while exploring, or where lured over there, is unknown.
Got some thoughts still holding from the previous thread:
Otto said:
This is possible, however, if you see my pic of the beginning of Maiden Lane, you would have to know it was there before you decided to pull a vehicle into it. There is nothing from Arbutus, or from the lift station parking spot, that would indicate that you could get a vehicle back there. It wasn't until I went looking that I discovered it (been by there hundreds of times before), and even then I had to walk several steps into the woods before it became apparent that it was some kind of road/path.
Additionally, walking between the lake and the fence would be plainly visible from the other side of the lake, and would appear suspicious, at least to me. I don't think there's much room to do so, and if you came through the gate, it seems you'd have to close it behind you to get to that area.
Reannan said:
BBM...a very important point, IMO. I live here. I walk by Maiden Lane 2-3 times/week. I've looked in there and have seen a clearing, I know there is room to fish in those woods, but have never considered it possible to get a vehicle back there. I never knew how large the clearing was, I never knew how easy to get there from Arbutus, and I pass it on Arbutus frequently as well - walking (meaning I have time to notice) - and have never known about it. Other people obviously do know about it.
GrainneDhu said:
SBM...this is not entirely true. My pic shows the trail from Maiden Lane, as well as Maiden Lane from the trail. What is not clear and evident from either spot is how to get efficiently to the other (i.e, around the fence, over the fence, along the fence to the jetty - all seem relatively cumbersome.)
From this thread:
From the last thread regarding this illustration:
The theory I have regarding what happened to the girls is illustrated in the map: either the bikes were carried from Maiden Lane to the gate, or the girls were taken through the gate to Maiden Lane. Others have suggested that the girls had first contact with a perp on the trail, then they walked down the trail and then they went somewhere to a car. I'm not sure what route that theory involves ... so I created the map to illustrate what makes the most sense to me. If I understand the other theories better, I can create maps for that too.
Again, this route would be plainly visible, and seem quite odd/suspicious, to anyone at the lake parking area. I think its possible the girls were on the jetty (purse got set down) and were lured over to the Maiden Lane area on their own. Two little-ish girls moving quickly would be far less noticeable than two girls being directed against their will by an adult in that spot. I still tend to believe that they just went around the fence to the east, however. Less risk, less brush, and, if they were being led or directed, easier. If they went along between the lake and the fence, they likely went by themselves, of their own volition.
You would never notice that you could drive in there from Arbutus, unless you knew it was there. It appeared as a wall of undergrowth, and I only noticed the smashed foliage indicating a vehicle had been there. I went back to investigate, and discovered Maiden Lane. I'm sure others knew about it, but I, as a local who frequents the lake, had no clue.
No, the bikes were not found at "the end" of the trail. The trail is continuous in both directions from where the bikes were found.
As to them being staged, if you came from the east, you would have to walk over a hundred feet with the bikes from Arbutus just to reach the trail (unless you very suspiciously pulled your vehicle down the grassy area to the trail). Then another several hundred feet to the gate, the last several of which you would be visible from the other side of the lake AND you'd never know if someone was going to approach this area from the west at any second.
If you staged the bikes and approached from Maiden Lane, you'd have to get around/over the fence. If you went around the east end of the fence, you'd be hidden until you got to the trail, then you'd be just as vulnerable as the previous example. If you went west along the fence to the jetty/gate, you'd be visible and suspicious, carrying two bikes along a narrow strip on the opposite side of the fence from the trail, between fence and lake, on ground that would be treacherous even w/o bikes. You could toss the bikes over the fence, but then, for them to get over to the gate, you'd need to get over the fence as well, only to move the bikes several feet west, again into view from across the lake.
Remember, if the bikes were found right at the gate, it's visible from across the lake. Obscured, but visible. Pics of LE, etc, from across the lake indicate this very well.
My guess is that, since the dogs tracked the girls from the bikes to the Maiden Lane area, that the bikes were not staged there, but left there by the girls, who then moved to the woods, either by exploring, by being lured, or by being directed under force.
Just judging by what has been said, my impression is that the bikes were found laying on the trail, and since at that time there was no suspicion of foul play, they were leaned on the fence to allow ATV's and/or other LE vehicles and personnel to move through the area easier. By the time Abben arrived, they were not as found. Just my interpretation.
Agreed. You can see that jetty from the parking area. Its kind of the focal point on the lake from over there. Someone moving between lake and fence would be very visible, and very interesting to watch, IMO.
BBM...people who fish Meyer's Lake, other locals, may have better knowledge than I. Neighbors, etc. But someone just passing through town? No effing way, IMO. As for the grassy area, I've never seen a vehicle driven on that besides city maintenance or LE, and the latter only after this incident.
100% agree. Unless they went out on that jetty, and decided to somehow make the walk to the woods from there, which I've discussed above would be treacherous and visible, and would draw attention, IMO, of anyone at the lake that day.
Even if he/she/they or the girls didn't walk among the weeds and trees by the fence, the water would not have been that deep to wade through. And I'm sure a perp would. Not familiar with leech invested lakes, but would they be right at the edge if someone waded in? TIA
We need Ollipop to take photos of the SE corner of the lake from the inside of the fence from the jetty looking toward the woods and the trail.
HINT.......
I will get over there hopefully with the camera again. Any other pics ppl want? Keep in mind that the lake level has not recovered from the partial draining, and likely will not this year. BTW, I do have photos of the jetty from the woods, but not of the woods from the jetty. I was there with my kids, and didn't want to drag them out there (or demonstrate that going through that gate was acceptable behavior).
BBM...that bolded part is essentially what I said the moment I heard of all this, and was probably among my very first comments on WS.
Here is the Bing map of the same area
Not likely. They would be very visible from across the lake (see all the pics of the area taken from across the lake), and would likely draw attention of anyone at the lake's parking area or docks (i.e., fishermen, etc).
The opposite side of the road has opened, so now you ARE moving by there quickly. At the time of the disappearance, traffic was much slower and the lanes felt much tighter.
Most, if not all, parks in E'dale and Elk Run can be completely viewed from a car on the road. Even most of Meyer's Lake can, except the relatively tiny area in the SE corner, and what is blocked by the island.
Additionally, its one of the few parks that is a "destination" from the trail, and cannot be completely seen from a nearby road.
Keep in mind the video shows them riding for the duration of a second or two, half-block from home, and over a mile from the lake. Its not likely they maintained that pace all the way, even if they tried.
I suspect that the drainage pipe was under water on July 13. No "jetty" because it's submerged:
No, the jetty was built up when the lake was drained a few years ago (after this pic). When I first moved here 5-6 yrs ago, the drain was just an opening in the surface of the lake. I think it was 1-2 yrs ago that they built that jetty up, so that it is now always well above the surface. I think that was the point of building it up, to allow easier access to that drain.
I believe the water level on that day is best shown in the pics of LE walking along the shoreline. The area that has NO vegetation, was only recently exposed. Any area that was not under water would have had weeds growing on it.
The drainage pipe is under water at times, as there are aerial photos showing that it is under water. The drainage-pipe/rocky-area is barely visible two days after draining the lake. I don't think we can assume that the drainage pipe was fully visible 20 feet into the lake at the time of the abduction.
The drainage pipe, and the jetty, were fully visible from the trail, and from across the lake, at the time of the abduction.
I, too, think it possible that the girls were on Maiden Lane, by their own choosing, when they found trouble. Whether they themselves knew about it before this day, just discovered it while exploring, or where lured over there, is unknown.
hollyblue
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Mapped out with E'dale, Friday as A, BC&D the Wed attempts and E, the last in Indianola on Monday.
http://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=E...HkYs_KX8CiMA&oq=Indianol&t=h&gl=us&mra=ls&z=7
hollyblue
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The girls should be punished to some type of community service, imo, after expending LE's time and concern. Seems to be this is catching on by attention seeking kids.
GrainneDhu
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I agree!
And as a former kid, I confess. I sometimes did things my parents told me not to do, knowing I wasn't supposed to do them.
But my parents' bed was so great to bounce on... <hanging head>
Thespyma
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A family member has an android phone which is not currently assigned a network but it had been before. They downloaded Angry Birds, Angry Birds Space and Angry Birds Seasons and can now play them without a connection to service. To download them needed to be connected but they can play without.
You can take you old phone which had been working when the downloads were made and use the games even after cutting service. It is the same for my tablet. I have lots of apps and games on it which can be played without wifi and a few that need the wifi.
Hi. I am new here. Been following this post. I am a mom of 2 with 5 nieces. I can't get these girls out of ny head. after reading almost every post as well as other blogs, etc...I keep coming back to:
A.Girls were going to the lake for a ROUTINE innocent bike ride, when they see someone familiar in boat (who expected them) who says..."hey girls...walk around and i will pick you up on the shore." so the girls drop the bikes..excited to see this person...and once they are either on the shore or on a property that is lakefront, they are abducted. But they believe that they are safe with this person(s). However, they are not aware that they are being sold for a lot of money. And that is why LE has been able to say that they are believed to be alive. As they were sold to make someone money. Sold by people who have absolutely no regard for human life, values, morals. People who's minds must have been erased in order to do something so horrific to the victims as well as the people who are suffering the loss of them. But..to some...its only about quick large sums of money. To some the only thing that matters is the moment...and in that point of time..money was the motive.
I hope this makes sense and it is ok to say on here. Oh and this is just my opinion. i am supposed to add that, right? This is just my theory.
A.Girls were going to the lake for a ROUTINE innocent bike ride, when they see someone familiar in boat (who expected them) who says..."hey girls...walk around and i will pick you up on the shore." so the girls drop the bikes..excited to see this person...and once they are either on the shore or on a property that is lakefront, they are abducted. But they believe that they are safe with this person(s). However, they are not aware that they are being sold for a lot of money. And that is why LE has been able to say that they are believed to be alive. As they were sold to make someone money. Sold by people who have absolutely no regard for human life, values, morals. People who's minds must have been erased in order to do something so horrific to the victims as well as the people who are suffering the loss of them. But..to some...its only about quick large sums of money. To some the only thing that matters is the moment...and in that point of time..money was the motive.
I hope this makes sense and it is ok to say on here. Oh and this is just my opinion. i am supposed to add that, right? This is just my theory.
nervous_nellie
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yes, but its not doubting that im doing, im just keeping an open mind because le has not cleared anyone in the family or anywhere else. i keep an open mind because le strategically puts out info but there is no way to know/understand just exactly what that strategy may be... there are still many possibilities to consider...and the bikes not being staged is one , and them being staged is the other...i havent decided which i believe has a stronger likelihood of being what actually happened...kwim?
SapphireSteel
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One thing that bothers me and I'd like some local input on -
I read a report that says the cctv footage caught the girls going in the OPPOSITE direction, away from the lake, not towards it.
Is this correct?
I read a report that says the cctv footage caught the girls going in the OPPOSITE direction, away from the lake, not towards it.
Is this correct?
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whew, thanks ollipop. I know that took some doing getting caught up AND responding to all the inquiries for locals that you did so kudos to you for hanging in there with all our questions (even the repeats) and helping us to discern the likelihood of various theories.
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nervous_nellie
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yes, i believe so...i dont have a link but i know jules71 i think figured that out...
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:welcome5: Ambi
great first post, thanks for sharing your theory with us. I hope you will continue to chime in as ideas occur and stay part of our conversation.GrainneDhu
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Hard to say whether there's a connection or not.
What struck me was how hard it was for her mother to say that she thought Trudy's body is lying somewhere out in the open. It was agonising for her.
No matter what happened to Elizabeth and Lyric, their families need to know.
SapphireSteel
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Thinking of a hot summer's day and kids after a bike ride, ( especially slightly" chunky" kids) and how the lure of an icecream bar or cold drink, could draw even the most fearful kids to anyone offering for free...
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I am at work right now and unable to backtrack through the threads but IF I recall correctly that was bad reporting. I forget what the directionalilty of the lake/video situation was specifically now.
I believe the girls were headed one direction (say west for example) on the video and some reporter defined that as "away" from the lake. However, in actuality the lake is another direction (say south from that location for instance).
So the video did not show them headed in the direction towards the lake but neither did it necessarily show them going what most would consider as "away" from the lake.
I hope that helps and I hope someone will be able to direct you back to the thread where this was dissected at length til we could all make sense of the "away from the lake" reports.
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