IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #18

[TxLady2]

Well, Abben said he had no idea about a cyclist having seen bikes. He said that 3 times...that's odd.

The changing timestamp times...screws up the timeline.

Perhaps they are trying to trip someone up. I'm not referring to any one person in particular. Only LE knows what they know, and they aren't talking about what they know...at all. The posters conflict in the information. The timestamps conflict. They don't acknowledge witnesses. Bizarre..but LE has been known to muddy the waters to trip people up by putting out misleading information. MOO

Can you name a case where LE deliberately put out misleading information just to muddy the waters? And why on earth, if they want the public's help to find these girls, would they want to mislead the public? It seems to me that would make it harder to find someone.

Who makes up these posters of missing persons? I would guess it's not the PD, but even so, mistakes are sometimes made. I can't see the police putting down the height of a person as a whole foot difference, on purpose.

Finally, what exactly do you mean about not acknowledging witnesses? How are they going to confirm that someone did or did not see the girls at the time they state they did? I doubt they have any way of knowing whether a witness really saw something or just made it up to get their face on t.v. If they can't confirm the facts, they are not going to comment one way or another.

No offense intended, this is JMO.

 

[nikb]

I hope you realise you were her angel that day. The milk of human kindness. Well done!
<snipped for space>

Aw thank you! I felt like I did the right thing, even if it wasn't the safest thing. I've often wondered about her and wished I had gotten her phone number.

It makes me really sad and scared though. What do you teach a child/young adult? To be cold and unfeeling just in case? Or to deal with the other 99% of people and situations? (number out of thin air, I don't have anything to back it up other than life experience)

 

[GrainneDhu]

BBM... IIRC they didn't report on the condition of the bikes much at all, though. In other words didn't report any damage, but also didn't report no damage. They were variously reported as laying across the trail, laying neatly, and leaning against the fence (or gate? can't recall which). I still think the bikes may have never been moved once they got to the lake, just people describing it differently, but I could be wrong of course.

All along we've been asking amongst ourselves if the bikes were scratched, damaged, had gravel in the tires, punctured tires, etc. but I haven't seen it reported either way.

Related to the previous question, how? I think the easiest would be to get them to stop their bikes for any number of reasons. Threatening - "Stop NOW!" by someone who looks like an authority type figure, or even easier IMO would be some sort of story that friendly, innocent children would go with. Someone somewhat familiar pulls over to say hi, they're distracted talking to the person, then they're gone, either with that person or someone who grabbed them while they were distracted. Someone's on the ground "hurt" and needs help, they stop to help. All kinds of possibilities.

Personal antecdote, I'm reminded of a time a couple of years ago and I should know better! I was Christmas shopping and walking to my car when I heard a woman sobbing. She was wandering around near her car and on and off her cell phone with obviously upsetting calls. She was aimlessly saying "please someone help me" but she was in a weird part of the parking lot, pretty dark, no one else was probably even within earshot. I got somewhat near her and asked her if she needed help or wanted me to call someone. She immediately went into this long story about how she and her son got into a fight, he was on drugs, he threw her dog ("my baby") into traffic and she didn't know if her dog was hurt or killed. I think her son was just being a <expletive> and told her that on the phone trying to get money from her for "vet bills" (ahem, drugs), but anyway... I felt so bad for her. The more she talked the closer I got until we were a few feet from each other behind her car. I asked if she wanted to move somewhere better lit with more people around since she seemed afraid of her son, but she said "no, I don't want people to see me like this." In between incoherent sobbing she kept thanking me for being there and listening to her.

I talked to her quite awhile in that dark, isolated part of the parking lot. I could've easily been grabbed by someone if they wanted to. I even offered to drive around with her to try to find her dog - me driving, her in my car, but what would it take? 10 seconds for her to go from sobbing to evil and well, yikes. Once she calmed down some I gave her a hug before I left. How easy would it've been for her to grab me and throw me in her car? I either wasn't "their type" or she was sincere - I prefer to believe sincere - but if I heard the same story as a kid and I didn't have a car? I don't like to think it, but I might've gone with her to help her.

I'm voting with what your instinct at the time told you: she was sincere, she was a fellow human being who was emotionally distraught, had way more troubles than she could handle and needed someone to remind her that she was not alone.

I think you did the right thing, the thing your instincts or subconscious or whatever told you was appropriate at the time.

Later the what-ifs got you but it sounds to me that at the time, you were exactly right. I bet that poor woman looks back on that night and thanks the stranger who stopped to offer comfort.

 

[nikb]

I don't remember seeing this photo of Lyric before. Sorry if everyone has already seen it.

http://altoonaherald.desmoinesregis...7220057/FBI-believes-missing-Iowa-girls-alive

Hmm... from this article, BBM and edited the minors' names.

Elizabeth has always been close to her older brother, Ke***, and two younger sisters, Am*** and Ca****, family members say.

“Everything Ke*** does, she wants to do, too,” her cousin Ka*** said.

I'm sure LE is looking into this but it makes me wonder what Elizabeth's older brother had been up to lately. Something she might want to do too?

 

[Reverie]

I don't think there's any conspiracy surrounding the last known sighting of the girls. There must be a very good reason why police concluded that the children riding the bikes in the video were the missing girls, so it seems reasonable to take that at face value. If you look at the map of the area, it's easy to see that there are a number of places in that particular block where someone could stop the girls (for any number of reasons) and quickly make them vanish. Where I'm having problems is in understanding this scenario:

- girls abducted in parking lot
- bikes in van or back of truck
- bikes taken to Maiden Lane

Taking the bikes to Maiden Lane presents two points: a very devious, pre-meditated plan, and the possibility that the girls could escape while ditching the bikes ... so if the girls were abducted in the parking lot, what sort of person would ditch the bikes at the lake and how could the girls be restrained while doing that?

map of parking area along Brovan: http://www.bing.com/maps/?cp=42.4617~-92.28887&lvl=12&where1=42.4617, -92.28887

Think Jaycee Dugard...taser...?

 

[Jax49]

Who makes up these posters of missing persons? I would guess it's not the PD, but even so, mistakes are sometimes made. I can't see the police putting down the height of a person as a whole foot difference, on purpose.

Finally, what exactly do you mean about not acknowledging witnesses? How are they going to confirm that someone did or did not see the girls at the time they state they did? I doubt they have any way of knowing whether a witness really saw something or just made it up to get their face on t.v. If they can't confirm the facts, they are not going to comment one way or another.

No offense intended, this is JMO.

SBM

BBM

You weren't addressing me but I think I can help with a couple of your points.

The poster on the local LE site (Black Hawk Sheriff's Office) shows one time and right under it there is another time shown.

Regarding the witness, at three news conferences Abben was asked about TG reporting he saw the bikes but not the girls. First two times he said he didn't know about it and IIRC the third time he didn't really answer.

 

[jacy]

Aw thank you! I felt like I did the right thing, even if it wasn't the safest thing. I've often wondered about her and wished I had gotten her phone number.

It makes me really sad and scared though. What do you teach a child/young adult? To be cold and unfeeling just in case? Or to deal with the other 99% of people and situations? (number out of thin air, I don't have anything to back it up other than life experience)

You did the right thing! But I get questioning yourself. I'm alert and aware by nature, never one (like, ahem, my mother) to only look for my keys when I get to my car. WS has made me even more aware and because of it I realized something. With all my skepticism, I would be very trusting of runners. I think if a guy in running gear stopped me, my guard would be down because he's out working out like me. I've since re-thought that, even telling my kids that NO stranger should approach them. There are so many scenarios. It's wonderful you followed your gut and helped out a person in need.

I'm so very sad we're approaching September and the girls are not found. I still have that little kernel of hope, but another part of me, as I read the latest news stories, is fast becoming more skeptical. This saddens me. Cherish your good heart.

 

[Sunlight]

Can you name a case where LE deliberately put out misleading information just to muddy the waters? And why on earth, if they want the public's help to find these girls, would they want to mislead the public? It seems to me that would make it harder to find someone.

I can't off the top of my head name a case, but I was watching an interview with an FBI guy the other day regarding another case, and he was describing how they deliberately put stuff out there in the media no less, to try to trip up a particular suspect. I'll try to find out what case it was, but I don't remember right now. It was on the teevee.

Who makes up these posters of missing persons? I would guess it's not the PD, but even so, mistakes are sometimes made. I can't see the police putting down the height of a person as a whole foot difference, on purpose.

I always thought it was the PD or affiliates or at least in conjunction with them, but what do I know..

Finally, what exactly do you mean about not acknowledging witnesses? How are they going to confirm that someone did or did not see the girls at the time they state they did? I doubt they have any way of knowing whether a witness really saw something or just made it up to get their face on t.v. If they can't confirm the facts, they are not going to comment one way or another.

When Abben was asked about Mr. G directly by the press during the presser, he said he had no information regarding such a sighting (that had reportedly been reported to LE) Perhaps it was never reported, or perhaps they didn't consider it relevant. I don't know.



No offense intended, this is JMO.

No offense taken. Oops..my responses are showing in the quote...after each paragraph. Sorry.

 

[nikb]

I'm voting with what your instinct at the time told you: she was sincere, she was a fellow human being who was emotionally distraught, had way more troubles than she could handle and needed someone to remind her that she was not alone.

I think you did the right thing, the thing your instincts or subconscious or whatever told you was appropriate at the time.

Later the what-ifs got you but it sounds to me that at the time, you were exactly right. I bet that poor woman looks back on that night and thanks the stranger who stopped to offer comfort.

Aw thank you as well GrainneDhu. I hope it helped her. You're very right about the "what if's" getting me later. And honestly most of them not until I started reading some of the stories here. Had I disappeared and people saw that whole thing on surveillance I bet most people would be saying "that was so stupid!" when I walked over to her and later to her car. I still think it was the right thing to do though.

Related to this case, I worry so much that one or both girls maybe have a similar sensitivity to mine, but that their instincts, subconscious, etc. haven't had enough life experiences yet to help them know when to trust their gut, and recognize a dangerous situation vs. someone truly in need. These girls are so young, their gut instinct or maybe more accurately their trust of their gut instinct might still be developing, if that makes any sense. I can see them stopping to help someone who seemed to be in trouble, even if they had a "funny feeling" about it but weren't quite sure what that funny feeling was. Of course, I'm hope I'm wrong.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Aw thank you! I felt like I did the right thing, even if it wasn't the safest thing. I've often wondered about her and wished I had gotten her phone number.

It makes me really sad and scared though. What do you teach a child/young adult? To be cold and unfeeling just in case? Or to deal with the other 99% of people and situations? (number out of thin air, I don't have anything to back it up other than life experience)

You teach a child that an adult never needs their help, and to get another adult if someone asks you for it.

 

[Reverie]

I think restraining the girls would not really be a problem. Luring them would not be a problem. I, too, have a problem with why on earth wouldn't the perp(s) just keep on driving and get out of the area rather than risking being seen...or leaving car tire evidence for example. Doesn't add up. Delaying the "search" because of the presumption of drowning...hasn't really changed the outcome...they have disappeared. If LE is not following up on something they have...then, the case is in deep, deep trouble. MOO

One of my uneducated mind wanderings again, but a perp known to the girls could, say, invite the girls to RACE to the SE side of the lake...winner gets a prize, etc,
with an additional promise of a ride back home in time for Gma's appointment?
Perp then drives to where the bikes were dropped, gets girls into the vehicle, takes off sans the bikes.

Or, perp challenges them to a race from a parking lot on/near Brovan, promises to stay put until they return, but surprises them at the SE part of the lake trail with a weapon? Maybe order Elizabeth to place her purse near the water?

In either scenario, a desperate perp might use gun tazer, duct tape, rope to quiet/detain them. ?
Again it is just :moo:

 

[Sunlight]

One of my uneducated mind wanderings again, but a perp known to the girls could, say, invite the girls to RACE to the SE side of the lake...winner gets a prize, etc,
with an additional promise of a ride back home in time for Gma's appointment?
Perp then drives to where the bikes were dropped, gets girls into the vehicle, takes off sans the bikes.

Or, perp challenges them to a race from a parking lot on/near Brovan, promises to stay put until they return, but surprises them at the SE part of the lake trail with a weapon? Maybe order Elizabeth to place her purse near the water?

In either scenario, a desperate perp might use gun tazer, duct tape, rope to quiet/detain them. ?
Again it is just :moo:

Yes. A perp could have been in a vehicle and said meet me at the trail at xxxx time xxxx place, and you can see xxxxx or play with xxxx puppy, dog, boat...and/or..I'll follow you, or I'll race you...who knows.

 

[dotr]

I did know that it was summer vacation, but always thought that would mean more kids were playing outside. I had not known that one of the girls was possibly homeschooled. Assuming that's correct, community youngsters, I should think, would still know at least one of the girls on sight and/or be playmates thereof. Children seek out other children which is why, I guess, when you move to a strange community you get to know your new neighbors through your children! At least that's the way it's always been for me. lol

Although it may not be a nice thing to do (or say,) I imagine that given the family's uh.. situation, other children may have been discouraged from associating with L and E.

 

[Sunlight]

According to TB, E played and biked with the neighbor's kids, including going to the lake. MOO

 

[Jax49]

Breault said the search has been slowed because of the time required to drain the lake. The draining began Monday afternoon and could take up to three days. But local officials said the draining likely will go faster because of the already low level of the lake and the Cedar River into which it drains.
***
"We have no reason to believe there was any foul play at this time," he (ABBEN) said. "Everyone is suspect until we find something."

Read more: http://www.seattlepi.com/news/artic...a-cousins-near-lake-3711844.php#ixzz25ApENbLG

Interesting statement from FBI.
***
I don't understand Abben's statement at all. No foul play but everyone is a suspect??????? If no foul play how can anyone be suspect???

 

[nikb]

You teach a child that an adult never needs their help, and to get another adult if someone asks you for it.

Hmm that is a very good point SapphireSteel. Come to think of it I guess that's mostly what my parents taught me. When I ran into an adult in trouble I usually looked for an adult to help. I hope the same is true for Lyric and Elizabeth. I wonder if that was part of the "stranger danger" talk with them.

 

[nikb]

Although it may not be a nice thing to do (or say,) I imagine that given the family's uh.. situation, other children may have been discouraged from associating with L and E.

Do you think the parents/kids near Elizabeth's house would know, though? I guess they might've thought it was odd that E's cousin was living there sometimes, but would they know the other potentially worrisome things? (I know I'm walking a thin line here - I'm not trying to bash or blame anyone, just trying to get a better understanding of how the girls might've interacted with other kids in the neighborhood)

 

[Sunlight]

Breault said the search has been slowed because of the time required to drain the lake. The draining began Monday afternoon and could take up to three days. But local officials said the draining likely will go faster because of the already low level of the lake and the Cedar River into which it drains.
***
"We have no reason to believe there was any foul play at this time," he (ABBEN) said. "Everyone is suspect until we find something."

Read more: http://www.seattlepi.com/news/artic...a-cousins-near-lake-3711844.php#ixzz25ApENbLG

Interesting statement from FBI.
***
I don't understand Abben's statement at all. No foul play but everyone is a suspect??????? If no foul play how can anyone be suspect???

In that same article, TB "an aunt to both girls, said all the signs were pointing to a stranger — possibility a pedophile — abducting them from the area near the lake where their bikes were found." MOO

 

[nikb]

In that same article, TB "an aunt to both girls, said all the signs were pointing to a stranger — possibility a pedophile — abducting them from the area near the lake where their bikes were found." MOO

Hmm. What signs? I do remember thinking it was strange they were already suspecting a pedophile so early, IMO. Did they have some kind of warning, or someone they were already worried about, maybe?

 

[GrainneDhu]

Aw thank you! I felt like I did the right thing, even if it wasn't the safest thing. I've often wondered about her and wished I had gotten her phone number.

It makes me really sad and scared though. What do you teach a child/young adult? To be cold and unfeeling just in case? Or to deal with the other 99% of people and situations? (number out of thin air, I don't have anything to back it up other than life experience)

I believe that you give your child the information they need to make good decisions.

So you expose them to as wide a range of people as you can. From different walks of life, different races, different religions, different lifestyles, etc. With each new person they meet, they are storing up information about what comprises normal behaviour. You share your own intuition about whether someone is telling the truth in a nonjudgmental manner (point out the behaviour of lying without condemning the person who told the lie).

And you also brainstorm with your kids, teach them how to generate options in all sorts of situations. Nurture their ability to think of a first option, a second, a third and to keep on going until they find the option that works. Being able to think on the fly is such an important skill!

Raising children to make decisions based on ignorance ends up with adults like those in the video of a staged child abduction, where a couple different people thought there was something wrong but didn't want to get involved. In my amateur opinion, they were letting their fear of something rule their behaviour.