IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #18

[otto]

Different towns, of which parts overlap.

I'd say miles? Far enough that a vehicle was required. Locals will know.

Do I recall us discussing Lyrics bike earlier on and deciding it stayed at Lizzie's house? Lyric did live there for a while IIRC...she was a shared family responsibility while mum was in jail.

Question - did her dad have her too while her mum was in jail? Was he in jail too for the entire time? Which town did she actually spend most time in?

:dunno:

Lyric lived with her grandmother and the grandmother looked after the Collins children at the Collins house. The two bikes that were used were a BMX and a mountain bike. The mountain bike was not a child's bike ... it was borrowed, although I don't remember who owned the bike. One bike was red, the other was purple.

 

[CN2Souls]

:earson: :yes:

 

[foxbluff]

Is it possible that LE would give misleading info about the time stamp?

The time stamp shows up the security film, however, I wonder from time to time if the security camera automatically changes the time by one hour twice a year? Certainly LE would have questioned that early on though.

 

[otto]

Is it possible that LE would give misleading info about the time stamp?

For what purpose? There is no logical reason for investigators to give incorrect information regarding the last time that children were seen prior to vanishing.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Where were other community youngsters and school mates that day? I don't recall reading about any kids coming forward to say they had seen the girls that day. Did I miss something?!?

If my child saw Elizabeth and Lyric, I'd call LE but the very last thing on earth I would do is step forward in the media. I'd be afraid that the perpetrator might think my child had seen something important and decide to get rid of a potential witness.

Or some other deviant would see my child in the media and be attracted.

Strictly in my own opinion, parents who allow their children to be trotted through the media spotlight in a criminal case are exercising poor judgment.

Additionally, going to the media can ruin a witness for appearing at trial. Any tiny deviation from their sworn statement to LE will be used to impeach that witness at trial.

I'm hoping that there are a bunch of witnesses in Evansdale who have made the wise decision to stay out of the media.

 

[otto]

My guess. LE has suspect(s) and are muddying the waters on purpose.

I believe that investigators are pursuing leads, but I don't see a connection between protecting the integrity of the investigation (not publishing every step of the investigation) and muddying waters. The only information we know is when the girls were last seen, where their bikes were found, that the girls were not in a 12 mile radius of the lake 10 days after they vanished, and that the girls did not drown. After that, investigators have been very professional in ensuring that the case is not tried in the media.

Is there any particular fact, released by investigators, that appears to be for the purpose of confusing the public, or muddying water?

 

[foxbluff]

Lyric lived with her grandmother and the grandmother looked after the Collins children at the Collins house. The two bikes that were used were a BMX and a mountain bike. The mountain bike was not a child's bike ... it was borrowed, although I don't remember who owned the bike. One bike was red, the other was purple.

I admire how much Gma helps her family out...one busy lady! I did know that Lyric was currently living with Gma. I did not know, however, that GMa watched over the Collins kids on an ongoing basis. So, whenever MCM was at work, Lyric would have been at Collins house, too? So, I take it that Lyric would be known to children in Elizabeth's neighborhood.

 

[SapphireSteel]

For what purpose? There is no logical reason for investigators to give incorrect information regarding the last time that children were seen prior to vanishing.

Manipulating/pressuring a suspect?

 

[otto]

The problem is, we don't know that no one did. The witnesses we know about are the ones who made the mistake of speaking to the media themselves. Good intentions and all, but I'm sure they're regretting speaking. I sure won't ever do it now I've seen some of the speculation and accusation that goes on, even on a website.

I would say that LE have an excellent idea who was out and about that day, and when, from tracking shop receipts, other cctvs, cell phone pings, townsfolk in general.

I would also guess that they are looking for a mystery white van that did not stop at any shops or gas stations.

This was the van the perp drove. It came to town, took the girls, left.

It was seen by various people we don't know about, so were the girls.

My humble opinion only of course. Not intended to substitute fact.

:cow:

Police are interested in vans of any color, not just white vans (that info and link were posted here yesterday or the day before). I suspect that they are interested in all types of vehicles, even cars. Why would someone need a van to abduct two children from the lake?

 

[foxbluff]

If my child saw Elizabeth and Lyric, I'd call LE but the very last thing on earth I would do is step forward in the media. I'd be afraid that the perpetrator might think my child had seen something important and decide to get rid of a potential witness.

Or some other deviant would see my child in the media and be attracted.

Strictly in my own opinion, parents who allow their children to be trotted through the media spotlight in a criminal case are exercising poor judgment.

Additionally, going to the media can ruin a witness for appearing at trial. Any tiny deviation from their sworn statement to LE will be used to impeach that witness at trial.

I'm hoping that there are a bunch of witnesses in Evansdale who have made the wise decision to stay out of the media.

You made some really good points here and your logic makes me feel so much better about what was worrying me. I so hope you're right about there being witnesses we know nothing about.

 

[otto]

Manipulating/pressuring a suspect?

The original video has been released to the public and the time stamp is clearly indicated as 12:11. We know what the owner said about how that time is slow in comparison to his cell phone. Clearly this information is authentic.

What untrue information do you think has been released by investigators?

 

[SapphireSteel]

Police are interested in vans of any color, not just white vans (that info and link were posted here yesterday or the day before). I suspect that they are interested in all types of vehicles, even cars. Why would someone need a van to abduct two children from the lake?

We're still not sure this actually happened.

I've never considered abduction by paddleboat as being a serious option, personally...

:truce:

 

[otto]

We're still not sure this actually happened.

I've never considered abduction by paddleboat as being a serious option, personally...

:truce:

The fact is that the children could have been abducted near the Collin's home and the bikes staged at the lake, or they could have ridden their bikes to the lake where they were abducted. There is absolutely no reason to assume that a van of any color was used, or needed, during the abduction.

 

[Sunlight]

I believe that investigators are pursuing leads, but I don't see a connection between protecting the integrity of the investigation (not publishing every step of the investigation) and muddying waters. The only information we know is when the girls were last seen, where their bikes were found, that the girls were not in a 12 mile radius of the lake 10 days after they vanished, and that the girls did not drown. After that, investigators have been very professional in ensuring that the case is not tried in the media.

Is there any particular fact, released by investigators, that appears to be for the purpose of confusing the public, or muddying water?

Well, Abben said he had no idea about a cyclist having seen bikes. He said that 3 times...that's odd.

The changing timestamp times...screws up the timeline.

Perhaps they are trying to trip someone up. I'm not referring to any one person in particular. Only LE knows what they know, and they aren't talking about what they know...at all. The posters conflict in the information. The timestamps conflict. They don't acknowledge witnesses. Bizarre..but LE has been known to muddy the waters to trip people up by putting out misleading information. MOO

 

[Kimster]

Reminder, we don't sleuth people who are not named suspects in cases.

:tyou:

 

[SapphireSteel]

The fact is that the children could have been abducted near the Collin's home and the bikes staged at the lake, or they could have ridden their bikes to the lake where they were abducted. There is absolutely no reason to assume that a van of any color was used, or needed, during the abduction.

To my mind, there is.

I am merely sleuthing here. Following my own personal logic.

I remember when LE first asked for the driver of the white van sighted at Caseys to contact them. The language they used was very strong. I regret not copying and pasting this (the articles have since changed) but they said the driver DOES have knowledge that will help them.

Not that he may know something, or that he may be a witness, or they want to eliminate him, but that he "has information".

The strong language may indicate their belief at the time that a white van was used, or at the very least the driver of that white van was in a place at a time that he was almost guaranteed to have seen something...but it turns out, he didn't.

I also factor in the potential staging of the bikes. It follows to me that a van of some sort was used, to easily transport them. This was a quick abduction, so no stuffing two bikes in one car, tying the boot closed, bouncing along the road with two bikes hanging out, just pick up and go. A van fits.

I believe this was extremely well planned, and that is one of the reasons we have no answers as yet. The perp thought of EVERYTHING.

:banghead:

:cow:

 

[SapphireSteel]

The original video has been released to the public and the time stamp is clearly indicated as 12:11. We know what the owner said about how that time is slow in comparison to his cell phone. Clearly this information is authentic.

What untrue information do you think has been released by investigators?

That is not what I said?

:what:

 

[otto]

Well, Abben said he had no idea about a cyclist having seen bikes. He said that 3 times...that's odd.

The changing timestamp times...screws up the timeline.

Perhaps they are trying to trip someone up. I'm not referring to any one person in particular. Only LE knows what they know, and they aren't talking about what they know...at all. The posters conflict in the information. The timestamps conflict. They don't acknowledge witnesses. Bizarre..but LE has been known to muddy the waters to trip people up by putting out misleading information. MOO

Lyric's height was given as 5'11" on one of the posters. That wasn't police trying to mislead people, that was error on someone's behalf. Similarly, it wouldn't surprise me if the time on the poster should read 12:15, but instead it says 12:05. One poster claims that the girls were last seen at 12:15 and at 2. Both can't be true. In my opinion, it's simply someone being sloppy, as there is simply no advantage to stating that Lyric is 5'11" or that the girls were last seen at two conflicting times.

It seems to me that none of the errors in height or time would trip anyone up.

 

[nikb]

If that was not the girls riding by on that video, then it had to be one of three things...a re-enactment? Ask yourself....why would LE put that out there? The bikes were being ridden by other people to go drop them at the lake....that would mean that the girls were already abducted between est. 11:30 and one of the 3 video timestamp estimates. It could also mean one other thing...but that would be against the TOS rules...that scenario seems to me to have been the early theory of LE...but over time...not so much (unless they have something else). Moo

Yes, thanks Sunlight! I wish I could find that video again that had the actual timestamp on it. I suppose that could be "superimposed" somehow if it was a reenactment done for a purpose, which seems pretty overly complicated to me, but possible. I know I saw it, but every video I've found since was more zoomed in and didn't have the timestamp.

 

[Sunlight]

To my mind, there is.

I am merely sleuthing here. Following my own personal logic.

I remember when LE first asked for the driver of the white van sighted at Caseys to contact them. The language they used was very strong. I regret not copying and pasting this (the articles have since changed) but they said the driver DOES have knowledge that will help them.

Not that he may know something, or that he may be a witness, or they want to eliminate him, but that he "has information".

The strong language may indicate their belief at the time that a white van was used, or at the very least the driver of that white van was in a place at a time that he was almost guaranteed to have seen something...but it turns out, he didn't.

I also factor in the potential staging of the bikes. It follows to me that a van of some sort was used, to easily transport them. This was a quick abduction, so no stuffing two bikes in one car, tying the boot closed, bouncing along the road with two bikes hanging out, just pick up and go. A van fits.

I believe this was extremely well planned, and that is one of the reasons we have no answers as yet. The perp thought of EVERYTHING.

:banghead:

:cow:

So you believe the girls were abducted close to home, put in the van with the bikes, the bikes were driven to the trail and unloaded...the perp(s) got back in the van, and drove off to parts unknown with the girls. In order to make it look like a van was not involved? In order to make it look like they drowned to gain time? Why would an abductor bother...I know you think it was "planned", because you've said that...and I guess we can all ask ourselves..why would it go down that way. Who benefits? A sexual perp wouldn't go to that trouble I'd guess.