IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #18

[otto]

I have a question for the veteran websleuths who've followed many cases. While I think ANY number of things could've happened near the secluded lake/trail, let's say these girls were taken somewhere close by to where the auction video was ... how would someone carry out the abduction of two girls while they're actually bicycling? Ya know, moving? What method would/could be used?


Gotta say ... I'm just having the hardest time seeing that as being L&E riding those bikes in the auction video!! :dunno:

I don't think there's any conspiracy surrounding the last known sighting of the girls. There must be a very good reason why police concluded that the children riding the bikes in the video were the missing girls, so it seems reasonable to take that at face value. If you look at the map of the area, it's easy to see that there are a number of places in that particular block where someone could stop the girls (for any number of reasons) and quickly make them vanish. Where I'm having problems is in understanding this scenario:

- girls abducted in parking lot
- bikes in van or back of truck
- bikes taken to Maiden Lane

Taking the bikes to Maiden Lane presents two points: a very devious, pre-meditated plan, and the possibility that the girls could escape while ditching the bikes ... so if the girls were abducted in the parking lot, what sort of person would ditch the bikes at the lake and how could the girls be restrained while doing that?

map of parking area along Brovan: http://www.bing.com/maps/?cp=42.4617~-92.28887&lvl=12&where1=42.4617, -92.28887

 

[Sunlight]

I don't think there's any conspiracy surrounding the last known sighting of the girls. There must be a very good reason why police concluded that the children riding the bikes in the video were the missing girls, so it seems reasonable to take that at face value. If you look at the map of the area, it's easy to see that there are a number of places in that particular block where someone could stop the girls (for any number of reasons) and quickly make them vanish. Where I'm having problems is in understanding this scenario:

- girls abducted in parking lot
- bikes in van or back of truck
- bikes taken to Maiden Lane

Taking the bikes to Maiden Lane presents two points: a very devious, pre-meditated plan, and the possibility that the girls could escape while ditching the bikes ... so if the girls were abducted in the parking lot, what sort of person would ditch the bikes at the lake and how could the girls be restrained while doing that?

map of parking area along Brovan: http://www.bing.com/maps/?cp=42.4617~-92.28887&lvl=12&where1=42.4617, -92.28887

I think restraining the girls would not really be a problem. Luring them would not be a problem. I, too, have a problem with why on earth wouldn't the perp(s) just keep on driving and get out of the area rather than risking being seen...or leaving car tire evidence for example. Doesn't add up. Delaying the "search" because of the presumption of drowning...hasn't really changed the outcome...they have disappeared. If LE is not following up on something they have...then, the case is in deep, deep trouble. MOO

 

[GrainneDhu]

I think there comes a time when you have to trust that you've given your children the tools they need to make good choices. For me, that is around the age of 14. Between the ages of 12 and 14, we have a talk about independence (which is very important to children at that age) and responsibility. They can't have one without the other. The more responsible they are, the more independence they are given. It's a three steps forward, one step back process. My son turned 17 in May. Last Saturday he and his 16 year old cousin returned from a two week vacation in two European countries. They stayed with relatives, but they still had to manage a fair bit on their own. I think that the more we trust our children, the less fear we experience in connection with their independence.

My son marveled at the fact that he was allowed to legally drink beer in Europe, but that did not mean he wanted to get drunk. I'm sure that your daughters will be fine as long as they use common sense, stay alert and make good choices.

I think that Lyric and Elizabeth, when confronted with someone that wanted to abduct them, were simply too young to make and implement the right choices. If one of them was trapped, the other would most likely have been too conflicted to make the right choice (to run).

BBM

All of the above post was excellent.

The part I bolded just really said it all for me.

I think in terms of information and behaviour. The more information a child has about the world, the better equipped they are to make a good decision.

To use a simplistic example, say a child want to learn to rollerskate but the parents are terrified the child will get hurt. The parents buy all the protective gear possible and they have the child watch other rollerskaters for hours to learn about rollerskating. Finally they allow the child to put on the rollerskates but the instant the child wobbles, they grab the kid, take off the rollerskates and have the child watch more rollerskaters. That program makes the parents feel better but it does nothing for the child except (probably) kill off their interest in rollerskating. The kid sure isn't ever going to learn how to rollerskate!

More importantly, the child doesn't have important information about how to learn, how to determine what their limits are, how to make something too dangerous for their knowledge level at that time easier or simpler, etc. Sometimes crashing and burning is a necessary part of learning.

 

[foxbluff]

Where were other community youngsters and school mates that day? I don't recall reading about any kids coming forward to say they had seen the girls that day. Did I miss something?!?

 

[Sunlight]

Where were other community youngsters and school mates that day? I don't recall reading about any kids coming forward to say they had seen the girls that day. Did I miss something?!?

I think one of them is homeschooled...plus, it was summer vacation...

 

[Sunlight]

Were both of the bikes "kids" bikes?

 

[brighidin]

I think one of them is homeschooled...plus, it was summer vacation...

Elizabeth had been homeschooled in the past, but had attended public school that school year.

To the OP: I haven't read anything that would indicate other kids saw them out and about.

 

[foxbluff]

I think one of them is homeschooled...plus, it was summer vacation...

I did know that it was summer vacation, but always thought that would mean more kids were playing outside. I had not known that one of the girls was possibly homeschooled. Assuming that's correct, community youngsters, I should think, would still know at least one of the girls on sight and/or be playmates thereof. Children seek out other children which is why, I guess, when you move to a strange community you get to know your new neighbors through your children! At least that's the way it's always been for me. lol

 

[MNDad]

I did know that it was summer vacation, but always thought that would mean more kids were playing outside. I had not known that one of the girls was possibly homeschooled. Assuming that's correct, community youngsters, I should think, would still know at least one of the girls on sight and/of be playmates thereof. Children seek out other children which is why, I guess, when you move to a strange community you get to know your new neighbors through your children! At least that's the way it's always been for me. lol

Elizabeth was home schooled until last year. She attended school last year in Evansdale. Lyric attended school in Waterloo. Lyric would probably be unknown to other Evansdale kids, but home schooled or not, other kids would probably know Elizabeth. Regardless, I have not heard of any sightings reported by other kids.

 

[foxbluff]

Elizabeth had been homeschooled in the past, but had attended public school that school year.

To the OP: I haven't read anything that would indicate other kids saw them out and about.

Thanks, brighidin! That's good to know.

Also, one of the reasons I feel the girls should have been seen by other kids is because if they spent any time at all just casually riding around the neighborhood I should think they would be checking out the homes of their friends/schoolmates hoping to see some outdoors so they could stop and chat. IMHO

Also, IMO, it would seem to me that even older teenage boys out shooting hoops, working on car, etc. would have noticed them.

 

[foxbluff]

Elizabeth was home schooled until last year. She attended school last year in Evansdale. Lyric attended school in Waterloo. Lyric would probably be unknown to other Evansdale kids, but home schooled or not, other kids would probably know Elizabeth. Regardless, I have not heard of any sightings reported by other kids.

Thanks, MNDad, for additional info. I knew that the little cousins didn't live within a few blocks of each other, but somewhere along the way I got the impression they were in bike-riding-distance from each other.

I might have come up with that idea due to my seeming to recall early on the ?Gma saying something like "Lyric came by to ride bikes." If so, it was said, I think, in the same article whereby I thought Gma had said the girls left on bikes around 11:30 or little later...and something about them pouring glasses of juice which they placed on counter. ????

I remembered being surprised reading here earlier today about MCM (CNN transcript where she's trying to tell why family doesn't know exactly what the girls were wearing) implying that Lyric "left with Gma" that day to go to the other house. Soooo, if Lyric didn't ride her bike over to Elizabeth's that day, then Gma had to load Lyric's bike in her car???

Without going to a lot of trouble, could somebody tell me how far apart the two homes are? TIA

 

[otto]

I think restraining the girls would not really be a problem. Luring them would not be a problem. I, too, have a problem with why on earth wouldn't the perp(s) just keep on driving and get out of the area rather than risking being seen...or leaving car tire evidence for example. Doesn't add up. Delaying the "search" because of the presumption of drowning...hasn't really changed the outcome...they have disappeared. If LE is not following up on something they have...then, the case is in deep, deep trouble. MOO

One missing poster gives the last sighting of the girls at 12:05. Perhaps that is accurate (although other information on the same poster was not accurate). If they were last seen at 12:05 and the cyclist saw bikes at 12:23, maybe the girls rode their bikes to the lake. Was Lyric pushing the limits in terms of independence? Was she inclined to do what she wanted without permission even though she had been in trouble for doing that four days earlier? Only the parents could answer that question. If Jim Spellman has another chance to ask the family some questions, that's one that I would like answered.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Thanks, MNDad, for additional info. I knew that the little cousins didn't live within a few blocks of each other, but somewhere along the way I got the impression they were in bike-riding-distance from each other.

I might have come up with that idea due to my seeming to recall early on the ?Gma saying something like "Lyric came by to ride bikes." If so, it was said, I think, in the same article whereby I thought Gma had said the girls left on bikes around 11:30 or little later...and something about them pouring glasses of juice which they placed on counter. ????

I remembered being surprised reading here earlier today about MCM (CNN transcript where she's trying to tell why family doesn't know exactly what the girls were wearing) implying that Lyric "left with Gma" that day to go to the other house. Soooo, if Lyric didn't ride her bike over to Elizabeth's that day, then Gma had to load Lyric's bike in her car???

Without going to a lot of trouble, could somebody tell me how far apart the two homes are? TIA

Different towns, of which parts overlap.

I'd say miles? Far enough that a vehicle was required. Locals will know.

Do I recall us discussing Lyrics bike earlier on and deciding it stayed at Lizzie's house? Lyric did live there for a while IIRC...she was a shared family responsibility while mum was in jail.

Question - did her dad have her too while her mum was in jail? Was he in jail too for the entire time? Which town did she actually spend most time in?

:dunno:

 

[SapphireSteel]

One missing poster gives the last sighting of the girls at 12:05. Perhaps that is accurate (although other information on the same poster was not accurate). If they were last seen at 12:05 and the cyclist saw bikes at 12:23, maybe the girls rode their bikes to the lake. Was Lyric pushing the limits in terms of independence? Was she inclined to do what she wanted without permission even though she had been in trouble for doing that four days earlier? Only the parents could answer that question. If Jim Spellman has another chance to ask the family some questions, that's one that I would like answered.

Is it possible that LE would give misleading info about the time stamp?

 

[Sunlight]

One missing poster gives the last sighting of the girls at 12:05. Perhaps that is accurate (although other information on the same poster was not accurate). If they were last seen at 12:05 and the cyclist saw bikes at 12:23, maybe the girls rode their bikes to the lake. Was Lyric pushing the limits in terms of independence? Was she inclined to do what she wanted without permission even though she had been in trouble for doing that four days earlier? Only the parents could answer that question. If Jim Spellman has another chance to ask the family some questions, that's one that I would like answered.

My guess. LE has suspect(s) and are muddying the waters on purpose.

 

[CN2Souls]

I this video WC (grandmother) is telling What the girls were wearing, Why don't LE use what she says.

She also says here... Nothing about seeing the girls at 12 :12, only that Heather came home at 12:30

And she says something about Why LE is questioning Dan so much but it is really hard to hear what she says...

http://bcove.me/xz5rknam

 

[SapphireSteel]

Thanks, brighidin! That's good to know.

Also, one of the reasons I feel the girls should have been seen by other kids is because if they spent any time at all just casually riding around the neighborhood I should think they would be checking out the homes of their friends/schoolmates hoping to see some outdoors so they could stop and chat. IMHO

Also, IMO, it would seem to me that even older teenage boys out shooting hoops, working on car, etc. would have noticed them.

The problem is, we don't know that no one did. The witnesses we know about are the ones who made the mistake of speaking to the media themselves. Good intentions and all, but I'm sure they're regretting speaking. I sure won't ever do it now I've seen some of the speculation and accusation that goes on, even on a website.

I would say that LE have an excellent idea who was out and about that day, and when, from tracking shop receipts, other cctvs, cell phone pings, townsfolk in general.

I would also guess that they are looking for a mystery white van that did not stop at any shops or gas stations.

This was the van the perp drove. It came to town, took the girls, left.

It was seen by various people we don't know about, so were the girls.

My humble opinion only of course. Not intended to substitute fact.

:cow:

 

[foxbluff]

Different towns, of which parts overlap.

I'd say miles? Far enough that a vehicle was required. Locals will know.

Do I recall us discussing Lyrics bike earlier on and deciding it stayed at Lizzie's house? Lyric did live there for a while IIRC...she was a shared family responsibility while mum was in jail.

Question - did her dad have her too while her mum was in jail? Was he in jail too for the entire time? Which town did she actually spend most time in?

:dunno:

BBM
Thanks, SapphireSteel...the answer to your questions would really be of interest to me right now so hopefully somebody will be able to answer them.

 

[otto]

BBM

All of the above post was excellent.

The part I bolded just really said it all for me.

I think in terms of information and behaviour. The more information a child has about the world, the better equipped they are to make a good decision.

To use a simplistic example, say a child want to learn to rollerskate but the parents are terrified the child will get hurt. The parents buy all the protective gear possible and they have the child watch other rollerskaters for hours to learn about rollerskating. Finally they allow the child to put on the rollerskates but the instant the child wobbles, they grab the kid, take off the rollerskates and have the child watch more rollerskaters. That program makes the parents feel better but it does nothing for the child except (probably) kill off their interest in rollerskating. The kid sure isn't ever going to learn how to rollerskate!

More importantly, the child doesn't have important information about how to learn, how to determine what their limits are, how to make something too dangerous for their knowledge level at that time easier or simpler, etc. Sometimes crashing and burning is a necessary part of learning.

Your comment reminds me of the educational philosophy of Maria Montessori. In summary, for example, the theory is that if a child needs to get from one side of the fence to the other, the child must explore and experiment. The first attempts may result in falling down. Through repeated attempts, the child learns that if he/she runs from the correct distance, then he/she can jump the right height to clear the fence and get to the other side. That's a simplistic example, but the theory is that through trial and error, children learn best ... explore, interact, experiment, understand and gain authentic learning. Information has to be converted to knowledge.

Even though Elizabeth and Lyric were told what to do if they encountered a dangerous individual, without putting that theory into practice, it's unlikely that they would have learned to address all the potential problems that could arise ... and so they vanished without a trace.

 

[Gracelin]

:seeya: cough..cough..lease: downstairs