IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #22

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  • #641
Ollipop, a verified local with family connections to the families, said that he had been told that their clothes were found with the bodies. I think the combination of location, physical size of the bodies that were found and the clothes made it close to 100% that these are Elizabeth and Lyric.

Whatever testing they are doing (dental records or DNA) is just closing that infinitesimally small gap to 100%. Which has been typical of this investigation from the very beginning. On Monday 16 July, Abben said that LE was close to 100% certain that the girls were not in Meyer's Lake but that the lake would be drained anyway just to be absolutely sure.

That's just the way this department rolls. They're careful and they go the extra mile to make sure there are no doubts remaining wherever they can.

This department seems to me to be doing a great investigation. If this is a solve-able crime, I am certain they will do it.

I get the clothes being found. IMO, had the girls been out there this entire time....there wouldn't be a "physical size" to see. Which keeps leading me to believe they were preserved somehow or haven't been out there that long.
 
  • #642
Anyone else find it a coincidence or maybe more that the reward for information rose to $150K a few days before they were found? Maybe it's nothing but it had me wondering today.

I think 50% of the reward money should be divided among the hunters who found the girls.
 
  • #643
No offense but I didn't conduct my research on home invasions. I'm aware of what type of case this is. And as I stated it was based on information I've read stastically presented by Criminal profilers, who work with LE on abduction cases.

Examples... the Greone case (two children, one perp); A case in GA back in February where two children were abducted by a single perp; two teen girls were abducted and sexually assaulted in Los Angeles several years ago by Roy Ratliff before cops shot him, to name a few. I'm sure there are cases of more than one perp abducting multiple children but my research was done in response to several posters who were wondering if it was possible for one perp to have abducted both girls.

I thought your original post was informative and it summarised information I have read before. Thank you for making the effort and sharing it with WS.
 
  • #644
Not sure what I think about the investigative reporter's comments via unnamed police sources. I tend to be mistrustful of "sources inside the investigation" and of the reporting on HLN in general so the two combined create a credibility issue for me.

I am trying to keep an open mind to the possibiliy that the reporter's comments are true and that the girls were either alive fo a period of time after their abduction or the bodies frozen and dumped very recently.

But in my heart of hearts I have always believed they were dead since shortly after they were taken, days at most. More likely hours.[/quote]
#############################################################


BBM

I totally agree.
 
  • #645
I feel like I may be asking a stupid question but I don't understand what you mean. What is dividing the family?


I don't remember how much I'm allowed to share as a local.... The family really came together when the girls were missing, now that they are found.. there seems to be 2 camps forming for lack of a better way to put it.

The local news put out a request for help with funeral expenses for the girls. That angered some friends of Elizabeth's mom and they stated that Heather and her husband would bury their own daughter and help wasn't needed, and that they would probably have to end up providing the services for Lyric as well because that is how it's always been. Then Lyric's parents friends started posting some stuff. I realize it's the friends.. but they are very close friends of each of the sets of parents. It just seems now the girls are found, there is nothing holding everyone together anymore.

MOO
 
  • #646
I don't mean to be insensitive because I know just thinking about the deaths of the girls is extremely hard on a lot of people, so I apologize if I come across that way. It sounds like there was some decomposition, or they would most likely have just had the parents identify them. At the same time, it doesn't sound like they were entirely decomposed or they'd more likely have said remains rather than bodies.

It was considered (I believe by a reporter) that the bodies may have been frozen until recently, and brought there recently for some reason. I wonder if they had been kept in a large freezer normally used for venison, etc. They may not have been removed to make room for meat from hunting, but hunting season may have been a time to be in an out of the way place without looking suspicious. Perhaps the person who did it was out there early in the season, or even before the season with an ATV to "set up a blind" using materials which also covered the bodies on it in case he was seen. He could have brought the bodies out there, left, and actually hunted somewhere else. Or maybe not.

Way to turn the "why now if the bodies were recently dumped" question on its ear confusion. Really good thought.
 
  • #647
I know this is pretty far-fetched, and I am not proposing it as a possibility in THIS case, but wondering... and putting it into the context of this case to clarify only... I DO NOT THINK THIS HAPPENED IN THIS CASE... If a "serial childnapper" was to have a "type" (as far as age, gender, race), they could confound identification by changing the look of a "dumped" child to resemble one they still had. For instance, putting the newer capture's clothing on the previous victim's corpse before discarding it, coloring and cutting hair, and so forth. Just because they don't have any other report of "two small missing girls (and really, Lyric was the size of a small adult)" they could actually have the remains of two girls abducted separately and made to look like the two captured together, dumping them together. Then as much as the now somewhat decomposed remains resemble the two girls, it would still take the final report from the ME to be sure.
 
  • #648
For me, the dump site rules out all parental involvement anyway. Mothers usually dump children in water, a link to maternal instinct and the carrying of the child in the womb. In a statistical analysis of cases done by NCMEC, mothers that kill will leave their children within 1 mile of the family home, in nearly every single case. Fathers, typically within 10 miles of the family home.

22 miles away in a desolate area. That's not a parental murder, IMO.

Yesterday someone posted that fathers generally take their children FAR away when they are the culprit. Hundreds of miles even.
 
  • #649
True, tlcox.. I was very disappointed in the amount of information released to the public in the recent press conference. Law enforcement has furnished too few details to put residents' minds at ease, imo. Most folks probably don't believe there's a deranged child predator living in their midst but you really never know.

Since hunters have now found the bodies, the rumor mill will be churning very hard in this slow paced farming community.. The questions will be many, but the community needs answers. Silence is the predators most lethal weapon...

Hold back evidence & info is vital in missing/murdered investigations and prosecutions. Yet when all vital evidence & info is with held due to the integrity of the investigation, their most valuable resource; the American public is squandered and many times the case goes cold..imo...

I wouldn't call Evansdale a farm community. I'd call it a suburb of Waterloo or a bedroom community.

I read somewhere recently (I think the BBC but I cannot find it) that while forensics have improved way beyond anyone's wildest dreams 100 years ago, the most common way police solve homicides remains the same: someone talks to someone else and self incriminates. With that in mind, it makes a lot of sense to hold information very tightly; the more "unknown" factors in a case, the more obvious it is if someone says something no one else knows.

The rumour mill would undoubtedly be churning right now, no matter how much or how little information LE releases.
 
  • #650
If LE received a ransom note after the girls went missing that might give them the false impression that the girls were still alive. It might also explain why LE was so quick to label the case as a kidnapping.

The same thing was said about Samantha Koenig when text messages were received from her phone after her disappearance. We know know that she had been killed only hours after her abduction.

JMO

Yep, predators are very deflective, calculating, creative, manipulative, and as in the psychopath Keyes' case, are recidivist, honing their skills with each innocent victim/s taken.
Due to the very strong statement, imo, by the FBI spokesperson. I am wondering if investigators received a communication by the abductor/s in an attempt to buy time, deflect, or taunt..


http://articles.ktuu.com/2012-12-04/israel-keyes_35602875

(snipped)
“Keyes then sexually assaulted Samantha and asphyxiated her,” officials wrote. “Keyes left her in the shed and then went back inside his house, where he packed for a pre-planned cruise that he was taking from New Orleans. He left early that morning (February 2) for the cruise.”

When Keyes returned on Feb. 17, Loeffler’s office says he began the next phase of his plan, taking a Polaroid photo of Koenig, staged to make her appear alive with a Feb. 13 issue of the Anchorage Daily News tucked under her arm
 
  • #651
I hadn't thought about the accident angle, but I would think if they were injured on the bike, bike damage would have been mentioned. Good thought, though! I'm going to ponder that a bit more...

I'd be surprised that (even in this case) Lizzie would leave her purse.
 
  • #652
Cary Staynor abducted (and killed after holding them for a while) an adult woman and her daughter (15) and friend (16) with little problem. He used manipulation (threats to the others) to make all the victims do what he wanted.
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/predators/stayner/index_1.html

And what REALLY creeps me out is that he was Steven Staynor's brother. I wonder if that affected him psychologically, and he might never have done what he did if Steven had never been abducted/returned.
 
  • #653
I don't remember how much I'm allowed to share as a local.... The family really came together when the girls were missing, now that they are found.. there seems to be 2 camps forming for lack of a better way to put it.

The local news put out a request for help with funeral expenses for the girls. That angered some friends of Elizabeth's mom and they stated that Heather and her husband would bury their own daughter and help wasn't needed, and that they would probably have to end up providing the services for Lyric as well because that is how it's always been. Then Lyric's parents friends started posting some stuff. I realize it's the friends.. but they are very close friends of each of the sets of parents. It just seems now the girls are found, there is nothing holding everyone together anymore.

MOO

Thank you peeples. I am sad to hear it. I was hopeful that the family would be able to find strength and comfot with and in one another with this news. I even posted something to that effect upon hearing the gils were found. I suspected then that the discovery would be a catalyst for some long held anger to surface.

While the girls were missing the family managed to present a somewhat united front, although the rift was apparent.

I am sorry to hear about this and pray the entire family is able to one day come to some sort of peace with one another and with past grievances.

No matter what the hurts or slights of the past, these two mothers will never have anyone who knows the exact hell they have suffered all these months save each other.

:
 
  • #654
And what REALLY creeps me out is that he was Steven Staynor's brother. I wonder if that affected him psychologically, and he might never have done what he did if Steven had never been abducted/returned.

I saw an interview he did and he talked about feeling invisible and forgotten by his parents. He also talked about being molested by a family member.
 
  • #655
Cary Staynor abducted (and killed after holding them for a while) an adult woman and her daughter (15) and friend (16) with little problem. He used manipulation (threats to the others) to make all the victims do what he wanted.
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/predators/stayner/index_1.html

Anyone know the statisics for a lone perp to abduct multiple victims and murder them within 24 hours? I'm not familiar with any of the cases mentioned except for the Groene case...and they were kept for a period of time. I'm sure it has probably happened, but I tend to believe it would be rather rare. Someone that brazen, unless they were acquaintances of the victims with probable trust involved is another bird altogether imo. {{{shivers}}}
 
  • #656
I get the clothes being found. IMO, had the girls been out there this entire time....there wouldn't be a "physical size" to see. Which keeps leading me to believe they were preserved somehow or haven't been out there that long.

You don't have to see an entire skeleton to get a fairly accurate impression of the overall size of the person it belonged to. Just seeing one of the major bones (skull, pelvis, femur, radius/ulna, etc) gives a good indication of whether it belonged to an infant, toddler, child, adolescent or adult. For an expert, even the minor bones like the metacarpals, give a reasonable guess as to the size of the person in terms of infant, etc.
 
  • #657
I don't remember how much I'm allowed to share as a local.... The family really came together when the girls were missing, now that they are found.. there seems to be 2 camps forming for lack of a better way to put it.

The local news put out a request for help with funeral expenses for the girls. That angered some friends of Elizabeth's mom and they stated that Heather and her husband would bury their own daughter and help wasn't needed, and that they would probably have to end up providing the services for Lyric as well because that is how it's always been. Then Lyric's parents friends started posting some stuff. I realize it's the friends.. but they are very close friends of each of the sets of parents. It just seems now the girls are found, there is nothing holding everyone together anymore.

MOO

Well, that tells me that Heather and Drew have some friends whose loyalty is greater than their compassion or discretion.
 
  • #658
You don't have to see an entire skeleton to get a fairly accurate impression of the overall size of the person it belonged to. Just seeing one of the major bones (skull, pelvis, femur, radius/ulna, etc) gives a good indication of whether it belonged to an infant, toddler, child, adolescent or adult. For an expert, even the minor bones like the metacarpals, give a reasonable guess as to the size of the person in terms of infant, etc.

Thanks GrainneDhu. Do you think its possible they have been there since around the time they disappeared? I'm hoping. But with the way things are being described/reported in the news (i know...not the best source) it sounds like they were somewhat intact.
 
  • #659
Yesterday someone posted that fathers generally take their children FAR away when they are the culprit. Hundreds of miles even.

And that would be correct, I was the one that was wrong. I was right on the mothers thing, wrong on the fathers.

It might also be worth noting that the study is 10-11 years old (if not more) and I haven't gone looking for a new one recently. A lot of statistics have changed in the last ten years.

It just doesn't seem parental, IMO. Some cases, you read them, and you just know that Mommy or Daddy did it. I'm not getting that this time.
 
  • #660
If the girls were coaxed into a vehicle, the purse would have been taken as well; if the purse was left behind (as I think it was? Elizabeth's?) then they were forced, probably by someone they did not know personally but who may be known to a relative.
 
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