IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #22

[otto]

I don't mean to be insensitive because I know just thinking about the deaths of the girls is extremely hard on a lot of people, so I apologize if I come across that way. It sounds like there was some decomposition, or they would most likely have just had the parents identify them. At the same time, it doesn't sound like they were entirely decomposed or they'd more likely have said remains rather than bodies.

It was considered (I believe by a reporter) that the bodies may have been frozen until recently, and brought there recently for some reason. I wonder if they had been kept in a large freezer normally used for venison, etc. They may not have been removed to make room for meat from hunting, but hunting season may have been a time to be in an out of the way place without looking suspicious. Perhaps the person who did it was out there early in the season, or even before the season with an ATV to "set up a blind" using materials which also covered the bodies on it in case he was seen. He could have brought the bodies out there, left, and actually hunted somewhere else. Or maybe not.

I don't think that "frozen" is the only explanation for the girls being easily identified after five months.

This is the only reference I have seen to "frozen":

"VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Rita Cosby, investigative journalist, I got chills when Jon just said that these bodies had been kept somewhere, and then when they were put there in this wildlife park, they were easily identifiable. I mean, it`s horrifying to think that they were kept in some -- it implies that they were possibly kept in some kind of refrigeration or something that preserved them."

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1212/06/ijvm.01.html

 

[otto]

I get the clothes being found. IMO, had the girls been out there this entire time....there wouldn't be a "physical size" to see. Which keeps leading me to believe they were preserved somehow or haven't been out there that long.

Lyric, at 4'11", was 140 pounds when she was abducted. I'm thinking that if the girls were kept alive for any length of time, that would have changed.

 

[LucyOso]

The girls were last seen at the entrance to the Meyers Lake park. Their bikes were found at the opposite side of the lake. There have been no reports about damage to the bikes. When would they have been in an accident with a prominent community member?

Elmer & Gilbert at 12:30

It does not have to be a prominent community member. IMOO. Just someone who freaked out. The bikes did not have to be involved either. A child can easily get seriously injured when hit by a car or an adult riding a bicycle while on foot. Not all injury accidents are blood and guts, many times there are internal injuries. :twocents:

The only reason why I even bring this up is that when I was a kid in a rural area, we would ride our bikes somewhere, then go off and play. There could be many places where the girls got into the situation.

 

[otto]

You don't have to see an entire skeleton to get a fairly accurate impression of the overall size of the person it belonged to. Just seeing one of the major bones (skull, pelvis, femur, radius/ulna, etc) gives a good indication of whether it belonged to an infant, toddler, child, adolescent or adult. For an expert, even the minor bones like the metacarpals, give a reasonable guess as to the size of the person in terms of infant, etc.

The size of the bones would not be enough for the family to confirm that the children had been found. I know of another case where remains were found after 5 months and there was nothing but bones ... bones that had to be identified as human.

 

[tlcya]

If Ollipop claims some clothing were found ... which you mentioned upthread ... and it is also reported by the talking heads ... is it true or not true?

Additionally, we first heard that Jessica Ridgeway had been dismembered on NG, and it was quite true. Isn't it possible that a visual identification of the bodies was made because the children were recognized? That wouldn't be true if they were in that locataion for 5 months. Clothing would not be sufficient to identify the children.

MOO if the girls were identifiable bcause of a lack of decomp and they ere still recognizable, there would be no need to wait for official ME confiration on aID. There would also be no need for the statement that they were confident because bodies were female, small in stature and no other girls missing in the area (papaphrasing, dont recall exact quote)

 

[cluciano63]

Lyric, at 4'11", was 140 pounds when she was abducted. I'm thinking that if the girls were kept alive for any length of time, that would have changed.

Still, their skulls would be smaller than adult-sized, I would guess.

 

[matou]

Wouldn't dental records be very quick for ID purposes? Tori Stafford was ID'd in a day from her dental records. Shouldn't everyone know by now whether the bodies are Lyric and Elizabeth?

 

[GrainneDhu]

The size of the bones would not be enough for the family to confirm that the children had been found. I know of another case where remains were found after 5 months and there was nothing but bones ... bones that had to be identified as human.

Chief Deputy Abben was very clear when he said that there was no need for the families to view the bodies. So far, he hasn't been caught lying in press conferences and I don't think he's lying now. I believe that the families have not viewed the bodies.

 

[Ms Pragmatic]

With how emotional Abben was, he knew for certain it was Lyric n Elizabeth. LE is just dotting their i's n crossing their t's now. Abben was devastated. Imo

 

[GrainneDhu]

Still, their skulls would be smaller than adult-sized, I would guess.

Also, the angles of the pelvises would be different than those for a very short adult woman.

 

[tlcya]

Exactly. That presser certainly raised a hell of a lot more questions than it answered. We are confident but will await official ID from ME? Frustrating as a sleuth. But if this loos lips sink ships tone from LE ends with the killer aprehended I will put up with the frustraton.

Wouldn't dental records be very quick for ID purposes? Tori Stafford was ID'd in a day from her dental records. Shouldn't everyone know by now whether the bodies are Lyric and Elizabeth?

 

[otto]

Otto, I addressed the "no bike damage" a few posts back. I stated that had there been bike damage, we probably would have heard about it. But a bike accident isn't the only kind of accident that could have occurred.

My understanding, at this time, is that two hunters were in the area and they accidentally stumbled across the bodies of the two children. According to the news reports, they were identifiable, some clothing was present, and it appears to be a body dump rather than the location where the children were murdered.

They were last seen at 12:30 at the entrance to Meyers Lake, and their bikes were discovered on the path at Meyers Lake at about 4 PM. The family was searching that location from about 2 PM onward. When would there have been an accident and where would this have happened?

 

[otto]

This is JMO, but I need more than Lieberman to believe that the girls were instantly identifiable due to other than clothing and/or size of bodies.

Should we believe that some clothing was found in the area, as first reported by Jane Valez Mitchell, but not believe that the bodies were identifiable? Why accept only half of the information provided by the source? There is no other source for some clothing being found ... at least I haven't seen one.

 

[otto]

It does not have to be a prominent community member. IMOO. Just someone who freaked out. The bikes did not have to be involved either. A child can easily get seriously injured when hit by a car or an adult riding a bicycle while on foot. Not all injury accidents are blood and guts, many times there are internal injuries. :twocents:

The only reason why I even bring this up is that when I was a kid in a rural area, we would ride our bikes somewhere, then go off and play. There could be many places where the girls got into the situation.

Where and when would this have happened?

 

[otto]

Still, their skulls would be smaller than adult-sized, I would guess.

I don't believe that Heather would announce that her daughter had been located because a small skull had been found. Surely she would wait for confirmation.

 

[peeples]

Forensic investigator weighs in on whats next

http://www.kcci.com/news/central-io...57080/17698922/-/item/0/-/rylvhy/-/index.html

 

[daisynae]

I hope they find this perso,,,,

http://www.kwqc.com/story/20285088/...-seek-man-acting-suspiciously-around-children

 

[sloane7777]

watcher9..
In our case they came to the door. We were not possible suspects, and no recording of the interaction was needed. Was better than a phone call, imo

I am so sorry!

 

[wenwe4]

I just can't get this song out of my mind . . . .

"Seven Bridges Road"...By The Eagles - YouTube

 

[peeples]

Fate of missing cousins resonates with Evelyn Miller's family

http://www.kwwl.com/story/20282792/...-cousins-resonates-with-evelyn-millers-family