IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #22

[SapphireSteel]

Feral Pigs there? Pse provide links to these revelations.

Erm...please link to where I used the words "feral pigs"? :waitasec:

georger
Registered User Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: sedona az
Posts: 776

Quote:
Originally Posted by SapphireSteel
I linked a scientific paper that states that bone scatter is directly proportionate to the length of time the body has been exposed.

As they were referring to "bodies" not "remains" in this case, it is inferred the girls were intact...which in turn, infers they had not been there long. I'm wondering if they've been there 45 days

http://library-resources.cqu.edu.au/...S351900103.pdf

what "bone scatter"? What bones? You have a crime scene description
now? post the link pse. Thanks.

.

Also, where did I describe the crime scene?

:dunno:

 

[not_my_kids]

Graphic
Carnivores will eat the soft tissues of the body (especially the face and hands) and
much of the skeleton (resulting in increased decay rate), especially the spongy ends of
the longbones, innominata (pelvis), and vertebrae of both fresh and decayed remains.
When a body has been mutilated by carnivores, it is important to search the general area
for bones that may have been scattered. Carnivores, particularly dogs, are notorious for
carrying bones as far as a quarter of a mile (lh km) from the body and will frequently
carry a skull or other bone back to their owner or neighborhood.
Rodents can cause extensive destruction to the face, hands, feet, and abdomen. The
smaller bones of the hands and feet may be carried away by mice and rats and can usually
be found within a few feet of the body. In contrast, a female opossum and her litter were
noted living alongside a nearly skeletonized cadaver (which was inside a wire cage) for
a period of months without feeding on the desiccated tissue or causing any destruction
to the bones.
If a body is found in a wooded area during warm or hot weather and doesn't show
evidence of carnivore feeding, it is likely that the body was kept in an area not accessible
to dogs (for example, in a warehouse) long enough to allow considerable soft tissue
destruction without concomitant bony destruction, and then carried out and dumped in
the woods. At any rate, if a badly decomposed body is found in an open area (for
example, woods, field, garbage dump) and there is no evidence of carnivore feeding,
other possibilities have to be considered. For example, the absence of carnivore feeding
may alert you that the body has not been exposed to the out of doors for more than a
few days.
Example A few years ago, body parts belonging to a single individual were found in
plastic bags scattered about in three counties in Tennessee. The nearly complete upper
torso was found in a secluded area frequented by neighborhood dogs. Although the body
was badly decomposed (putrefied) and maggot-infested, no evidence of carnivore activity
was present. As the case unfolded it was found that the individual had been killed,
dismembered in his apartment, and, days later, scattered about in the woods. This
explained the advanced degree of bodily decay and insect activity yet lack of carnivore
destruction.
http://library-resources.cqu.edu.au/JFS/PDF/vol_35/iss_1/JFS351900103.pdf

Lots of other discussion regarding decomp factors here. I believe that the girls were out there the whole time, but it could really go either way. If they were still mostly intact, then, it is unlikely that they were out there the whole time. But until we know, it's hard to speculate either way.

(Sorry for the weird format, and I think this might have already been posted, at least in link form.)

 

[SapphireSteel]

Sorry but in this State with as many hunters, hikers, etc as there are -
you would have to be braindead to take bodies to this location knowing
they would be found perhaps even within hours. The ONLY person who
would think otherswise would be someone very familiar with this location
knowing this particular spot was NOT being visited very often ... but
sooner or later these bodies would be found - GUANARTEED AT THIS
LOCATION! The distance between the bodies says something, not sure
what. COD may tell the whole story here. Shot? Died of exposure? Bound?
tied? But whoever took these girls there risked being seen coming and
going!! Sure its remote but not that remote. Locals living in an area notice
things... whoever did this isnt very friggin smart! Took risks getting to
and out of this location. If this was recent may even some footprints!

We need a COD and timeline.

Hoped he left some gum wrappers and cigarette butts! Thats why they
are searching the sides of the roadway in ...

This place is just TOOOO public - the kind of place somebody has to know of or have visited
before ... cant just wander to a place like this and you risk being seen ... might as well have
dumped the girls alongside some roadway. I think this place connects to a known person
who has been there before!

The Sherrif said if the hunters had been 5ft either way they wouldn't have found them.

Doesn't sound all that public to me. :cow:

 

[Marilynilpa]

Im 90 miles south and dont know this area at all but, from reports here at
WS and with Google maps, there are few roads in and out of this
untended park, with farms on both sides. The only way in or out without
being seen would have to be under the over of darkness, and then its a
walk from the road to the body locations .. this selects for somebody who
knew this area and perhaps knew there were no campers there on the
day/night the girls get deposited there ... someone familiar with this area.
A purposeful event vs random probability .. someone with prior knowledge of this area specifically. (otherwise just dump the girls on any road at
night if they are deceased and be gone).

BBM

I completely agree.

I have believed all along that there was nothing "random" in this case. And the location of their remains has done absolutely nothing to dissuade me from that belief. JMO

 

[SapphireSteel]

Sheesh. Wild boar wild hogs feral pigs. Whatever. Its semantics. I have heard all of those terms used to describe the danged critters.

They are ugly, oinking, intelligent creatures with a snout, four legs, and they'll eat anything that doesn't move, and everything that does, including live humans if they get hungry enough.

Hogs boar pigs. All the same to me. They eat people.

:what:

 

[passionflower]

Pigs will happily eat a live human, let alone a dead one.

It really does sound as if they've not been there long at all. Not 45 days, anyway. :moo:

yes and pigs eat allot and are always hungry so that should go for wild ones also.
Can LE tell how long they have been there from the grass they lay on or other scientific ways of plants?

 

[deca]

I would like to know what normal traffic is to the untended park. 1-2 visitors a week? A day? a month?
The fewer visitors to this park, the more likely a local property owner noticed a visiting vehicle.

 

[Darcyline]

It actually amazes me they were found this fast-like, it may have taken forever if the hunters walked just a few feet in a different direction. There are no guarantees that other hunters would be walking in the same area.

 

[SapphireSteel]

ok provide a parks or DNR person who says there are feral pigs cougars,
wild bores, moose, bears, wolves, cyotes, Aanaconda, etc at this park! Simple.

and we dont even have an autopsy or further data from LE yet to now if
any of that would apply in any regard - the same with refrigeration and white vans . . .

People here are very serious about solving this crime in our own back
yards, not speculating about the flora and fauna ... in North Carolina.
This is north central Iowa and I am here, live!

Thanks...

We're serious too and rely on local knowledge.

 

[georger]

The Sherrif said if the hunters had been 5ft either way they wouldn't have found them.

Doesn't sound all that public to me. :cow:

Look at the Gazette photos and the map - <modsnip>
Few roads in, few roads out, farms both sides, rural civilisation, people,
the park is a known place, straight walk down from the road ... to a
fisherman or hiker this is nothing ... sand bars ... pretty place by all
accounts and the photos ... not Denali Park in Alaska! This is Ioway!
Go Hawks!

 

[SapphireSteel]

yes and pigs eat allot and are always hungry so that should go for wild ones also.
Can LE tell how long they have been there from the grass they lay on or other scientific ways of plants?

Probably, but it's usually insect activity they use.

As the link I posted earlier said, the amount of critters (big and small) directly dictates the length of time the body has been in the open.

As the girls were allegedly easily recognisable and in one piece, they wouldn't haven't been in the open long.

But, we don't know as yet, what their condition was so we're only guessing. Like so much in this sad, sad case.

 

[cindersoot]

My suspect is an avid hunter and would know this area for sure. JMO

 

[passionflower]

The Sherrif said if the hunters had been 5ft either way they wouldn't have found them.

Doesn't sound all that public to me. :cow:

WARNING GRAPHIC
So no smell with 2 bodies in that area?
Odd isn't it if they were decomposing?
We just had a deer hit by a car and in 2 days it was smelling.

 

[dadgum]

Good morning cinder, the adult body has 206 bones, an infant up to 350. There may have been limited scattering.

GRAPHIC

Predation by smaller animals might have been limited to smaller things like digits (fingers, toes) while still leaving the majority of bones unscattered.

We just don't know. Were the bodies wrapped in tarp or plastic? Were they buried in shallow silt like sandy grave? Were they there months or days?

We just don't know.

Hoping autopsy results are released soon and may clear some of these questions.

Here you go..


http://www.extension.iastate.edu/Publications/IAN601.pdf

http://www.ehow.com/about_6121183_feral-hog-hunting-iowa.html

ok provide a parks or DNR person who says there are feral pigs cougars,
wild bores, moose, bears, wolves, cyotes, Aanaconda, etc at this park! Simple.

and we dont even have an autopsy or further data from LE yet to now if
any of that would apply in any regard - the same with refrigeration and white vans . . .

People here are very serious about solving this crime in our own back
yards, not speculating about the flora and fauna ... in North Carolina.
This is north central Iowa and I am here, live!

Thanks...

 

[tlcya]

I read some links regarding wild (feral) hogs being a nuisance in IA and hunters and farmers being encouraged to shoot the onsite and further to report wild hog sightings to DNR.

As locals, I trust your information more so than internet garnered reading.

But really, the point can easily be made without snark or confrontational attitude.

 

[passionflower]

Here in PA it's been warm yet and animals aren't in hybernation yet.
Seems like we have about the same animal activity as Iowa.
My son's farm has the fox, coyote, bear, deer, etc

 

[SapphireSteel]

WARNING GRAPHIC
So no smell with 2 bodies in that area?
Odd isn't it if they were decomposing?
We just had a deer hit by a car and in 2 days it was smelling.

Another indicator they were only placed there a day or so before they were found?


:dunno:

 

[cindersoot]

Another indicator they were only placed there a day or so before they were found?


:dunno:

That's what I'm thinking, but I hope I'm wrong.lease:

 

[tlcya]

We don't know if there was odor or not. Maybe it led to the hunters discovery.

Ack. I just hate that we have so little.

Where is the pull your hair out with frustration emoticon?

 

[Marilynilpa]

Another indicator they were only placed there a day or so before they were found?


:dunno:

Or maybe another indicator that they were either in shallow graves or wrapped in something? Or, as has been mentioned many times, this was a remote/isolated area. How do we know there was no smell? Maybe that is what drew the hunters to the bodies in the first place???

ETA: I see tlcox posted the same thing about possible odor - great minds think alike!