IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #23

[cindersoot]

I was wondering, if this case goes cold, will LE disclose anything about how the girls were found?

 

[cindersoot]

The article ^^^^ stated the area had been mowed and trimmed (trees) so LE could do the search. Some of our discussions and questions answered. Even tho there aren't many trees and much sunlight, as Grainne stated, the thick edging would still be there with tall grass and other vegatation....and although a drought season, you have the high humidity to consider for moisture. If placed there in the summer with waist high grass...no one would discover them. imo

Here's pic with a guy cutting high grass/vegatation and the area probably looked much like it the summertime, imo. Another showing the tall grass of Iowa. The midwestern US is prairie land and tall prairie grass covers much all of it. High humid also....and one of the reasons for the spawning of tornados.

I just think there is no way they mowed down the area to search for evidence. JMO. That would disturb any small evidence.

 

[Marilynilpa]

I was wondering, if this case goes cold, will LE disclose anything about how the girls were found?

If LE thinks the release of additional info might result in getting more tips, they might disclose something. But I don't think they'll ever let the public know how the girls were found. I just don't see how that info would aid in identifying Lyric and Lizzie's killer(s).

JMO, as always.

 

[Jacie Estes]

If LE thinks the release of additional info might result in getting more tips, they might disclose something. But I don't think they'll ever let the public know how the girls were found. I just don't see how that info would aid in identifying Lyric and Lizzie's killer(s).

JMO, as always.

For myself, that is not something I would want to know. I think it is tragic enough for Elizabeth and Lyric's parents to know their girls were murdered. They don't need the added knowledge that details of their deaths are media fodder. IMHO

 

[hollyblue]

This case is from my area, and I am so heart broken over this outcome:/

I think it is effecting everyone following her case or that lives in that area. It's very heart breaking.

In the interview with Heather, she said she dreams of Lizzie and can see her smile, talk to her, etc. What a blessing God is giving her in allowing that and her to feel close to her at this time. She says she welcomes them and I've experienced the same thing. Enjoying the time in your dreams when you know it's not a possibility upon awakening. (((hugs to you Heather))) God Bless.

 

[FootballMom]

I know there was a "grain of salt" applied to Jon Lieberman's interview on NG last week about the condition of the girl's bodies as possibly being frozen or preserved, however this quote from HC really stuck out to me;

Heather recalls she had a gut feeling it wasn't good. She said they immediately drove to Evansdale City Hall. Once inside, "Kent Smock (Evansdale Police Chief) told us, in the best way he could tell us, that two hunters came upon two girls, and that they believe it's Elizabeth and Lyric, and they are no longer on this earth with us."

http://www.kwwl.com/story/20310851/...beth-collins-speaks-about-her-daughters-death

The news broke the story very quickly that day so I'd be very surprised if they were able to ID skeletal remains of female victims so quickly without an forensic anthropologist conducting a through exam. JMO

"The use of the pelvic bone alone has proved extremely precise in establishing sex, with an accuracy of up to 95% (Byers, 2002). However this is not a useful indicator when determining the sex of a pre-pubescent child, as the pelvic bone in girls is yet to widen, thus meaning there is a lack of sexual dimorphism between the sexes."

http://forensicsciencecentral.co.uk/anthropology.shtml

 

[SapphireSteel]

I know there was a "grain of salt" applied to Jon Lieberman's interview on NG last week about the condition of the girl's bodies as possibly being frozen or preserved, however this quote from HC really stuck out to me;

Heather recalls she had a gut feeling it wasn't good. She said they immediately drove to Evansdale City Hall. Once inside, "Kent Smock (Evansdale Police Chief) told us, in the best way he could tell us, that two hunters came upon two girls, and that they believe it's Elizabeth and Lyric, and they are no longer on this earth with us."

http://www.kwwl.com/story/20310851/...beth-collins-speaks-about-her-daughters-death

The news broke the story very quickly that day so I'd be very surprised if they were able to ID skeletal remains of female victims so quickly without an forensic anthropologist conducting a through exam. JMO

"The use of the pelvic bone alone has proved extremely precise in establishing sex, with an accuracy of up to 95% (Byers, 2002). However this is not a useful indicator when determining the sex of a pre-pubescent child, as the pelvic bone in girls is yet to widen, thus meaning there is a lack of sexual dimorphism between the sexes."

http://forensicsciencecentral.co.uk/anthropology.shtml

I think they would have confirmed likely ID before they told the family. If the girls were dressed in the clothes they were last seen in, that would be straightforward.

If they could have been say, possibly the bodies of two hunters, they wouldn't have called them.

 

[cluciano63]

If LE thinks the release of additional info might result in getting more tips, they might disclose something. But I don't think they'll ever let the public know how the girls were found. I just don't see how that info would aid in identifying Lyric and Lizzie's killer(s).

JMO, as always.

If there is a trial, details will be known to the public. Before then, LE will only release what they think may help kind the killer(s).

I believe that details of murders should be public, once the case is solved. One day, the perp may be coming up for parole and if the crime was especially heinous, the public has a right to know, to have the chance to protest. Also, laws come up for vote at times regarding sentencing guidelines, etc. and people need to be aware of the types of crimes that have taken place in their counties or states. All murders are not alike, neither are all murderers, and it is important, IMO, to know there are some that should never get released under any circumstances. Anyway, JMO

 

[Marilynilpa]

This is from an article linked by Progressforward earlier today:

Five days later, on Monday, December 10, Heathers says she got the call from Police Chief, Kent Smock, confirming that the bodies were those of Elizabeth and Lyric. "I was prepared for it," she said, when asked about getting the official identity confirmation from Chief Smock. "We already knew it was them, but they had to do DNA testing to make sure."

BBM

I'd like to know if it is standard procedure to conduct a DNA test for identification of a body if that body is visually identifiable.

I think the answer to that question might go a long way in answering the question of whether the hunters found bodies, remains or skeletal remains. JMO

ETA: For convenience, here is the link to the article.

http://www.kwwl.com/story/20310851/...beth-collins-speaks-about-her-daughters-death

 

[Foxfire]

If LE thinks the release of additional info might result in getting more tips, they might disclose something. But I don't think they'll ever let the public know how the girls were found. I just don't see how that info would aid in identifying Lyric and Lizzie's killer(s).

JMO, as always.

Only a couple of pieces of hold back info/evidence is necessary to pin down a suspect/poi during an interrogation. One minor bit of info shared with the public may be the key to solving an investigation by triggering someone's memory of a suspicious event on July 13, 2012.

An example would be; if someone noticed dirt/mud on someones clothes or shoes, scratches, poison ivy, or other unexplained injuries, coupled with other suspicious behavior.

Weeks before BTK serial killer's arrest. He was reading a paper with an article showing a letter that he had sent to police. His wife said, "look Dennis, the BTK serial killer misspelled the same word that you always misspell"...

 

[chelsea6]

I have a question, and can't find answer anywhere on the internet. I'm 99% sure the answer is yes, but I'm new at websleuthing so heck if I know. I was going to ask this months ago, and now wish I had.

Let's say a person is in jail on some drug charge, or whatever and is very close to a much bigger case. While in the county jail, she/he confides to another inmate about what she/he heard or knows what happened to the victim/victims in the much bigger separate case she/he is very close to. (I'm thinking This person must not be very smart, right?)

Doesn't the jail monitor these conversations? I mean, isn't every word of what the inmates of the jail taped and listened to constantly, or could something get missed?

 

[Jacie Estes]

This is from an article linked by Progressforward earlier today:

Five days later, on Monday, December 10, Heathers says she got the call from Police Chief, Kent Smock, confirming that the bodies were those of Elizabeth and Lyric. "I was prepared for it," she said, when asked about getting the official identity confirmation from Chief Smock. "We already knew it was them, but they had to do DNA testing to make sure."

BBM

I'd like to know if it is standard procedure to conduct a DNA test for identification of a body if that body is visually identifiable.

I think the answer to that question might go a long way in answering the question of whether the hunters found bodies, remains or skeletal remains. JMO

ETA: For convenience, here is the link to the article.

http://www.kwwl.com/story/20310851/...beth-collins-speaks-about-her-daughters-death

From your link:

In her first interview since learning of her daughter's death, Heather Collins told KWWL Monday night, "I don't need to know how she was murdered. I don't need to know what anybody has done to her, because that's in God's hands. All I know is that I don't have my daughter here anymore and she is up in Heaven with our Savior. That's all I need to know."...

...Heather admits she worries about hearing any of what could be very gruesome details, as the investigation moves forward. In a 21-minute interview, she told KWWL, "The more I know and the more evil I know about it; it would consume me. It would consume my mind, and I don't need that"

 

[Marilynilpa]

If there is a trial, details will be known to the public. Before then, LE will only release what they think may help kind the killer(s).

I believe that details of murders should be public, once the case is solved. One day, the perp may be coming up for parole and if the crime was especially heinous, the public has a right to know, to have the chance to protest. Also, laws come up for vote at times regarding sentencing guidelines, etc. and people need to be aware of the types of crimes that have taken place in their counties or states. All murders are not alike, neither are all murderers, and it is important, IMO, to know there are some that should never get released under any circumstances. Anyway, JMO

BBM

I completely agree, the details should be public once the perp's trial and appeals are over. I don't necessarily feel the details should be disseminated to the public at large, but the details should be available for those who seek that information. I hope that makes sense.

 

[SapphireSteel]

This is from an article linked by Progressforward earlier today:

Five days later, on Monday, December 10, Heathers says she got the call from Police Chief, Kent Smock, confirming that the bodies were those of Elizabeth and Lyric. "I was prepared for it," she said, when asked about getting the official identity confirmation from Chief Smock. "We already knew it was them, but they had to do DNA testing to make sure."

BBM

I'd like to know if it is standard procedure to conduct a DNA test for identification of a body if that body is visually identifiable.


I think the answer to that question might go a long way in answering the question of whether the hunters found bodies, remains or skeletal remains. JMO

ETA: For convenience, here is the link to the article.

http://www.kwwl.com/story/20310851/...beth-collins-speaks-about-her-daughters-death

They will examine both bodies minutely because it is a suspicious death.

I imagine that it's routine these days in such cases to definitively confirm the ID. They test everything else, so what's one more.

 

[24Roses]

This is from an article linked by Progressforward earlier today:

Five days later, on Monday, December 10, Heathers says she got the call from Police Chief, Kent Smock, confirming that the bodies were those of Elizabeth and Lyric. "I was prepared for it," she said, when asked about getting the official identity confirmation from Chief Smock. "We already knew it was them, but they had to do DNA testing to make sure."

BBM

I'd like to know if it is standard procedure to conduct a DNA test for identification of a body if that body is visually identifiable.

I think the answer to that question might go a long way in answering the question of whether the hunters found bodies, remains or skeletal remains. JMO

ETA: For convenience, here is the link to the article.

http://www.kwwl.com/story/20310851/...beth-collins-speaks-about-her-daughters-death

BBM-I haven't seen this mentioned yet, but right above the article on the left hand side there is a link to listen to Heather's extended interview. The article doesn't mention everything she says & it is informative. Just listening to her talk, brought tears to my eyes. She & her family are amazing people!

 

[Marilynilpa]

I have a question, and can't find answer anywhere on the internet. I'm 99% sure the answer is yes, but I'm new at websleuthing so heck if I know. I was going to ask this months ago, and now wish I had.

Let's say a person is in jail on some drug charge, or whatever and is very close to a much bigger case. While in the county jail, she/he confides to another inmate about what she/he heard or knows what happened to the victim/victims in the much bigger separate case she is very close to. (I'm thinking This person must not be very smart, right?)

Doesn't the jail monitor these conversations? I mean, isn't every word of what the inmates of the jail taped and listened to constantly, or could something get missed?

I don't know if the jail monitors all inmate conversations, but if someone admitted to a fellow inmate that they had important information about a big case, that fellow inmate would probably try to parlay this knowledge into a reduction in sentence or additional privileges. JMO

 

[SapphireSteel]

I have a question, and can't find answer anywhere on the internet. I'm 99% sure the answer is yes, but I'm new at websleuthing so heck if I know. I was going to ask this months ago, and now wish I had.

Let's say a person is in jail on some drug charge, or whatever and is very close to a much bigger case. While in the county jail, she/he confides to another inmate about what she/he heard or knows what happened to the victim/victims in the much bigger separate case she/he is very close to. (I'm thinking This person must not be very smart, right?)

Doesn't the jail monitor these conversations? I mean, isn't every word of what the inmates of the jail taped and listened to constantly, or could something get missed?

No prison in all the world has the ability or desire to tape and then examine the tapes of every single idiotic sentence that drops out of the inmates in their jail.

However, it is very common for an undercover policeman to share a cell with a criminal.

It happened to a friend of mine, he was arrested and shoved in a cell with another guy, he said the urge to confide in the guy was almost overwhelming, just because you're shut in there together so closely.

Also crims narc on each other all the time, it's quite possible and legal to have the conversations taped if they have someone wishing to bargain for freedom.

 

[Foxfire]

"Whether the abductor/s is a first timer or serial murderer, jurisdictional linkage blindness is the primary investigative deficiency that causes most cold cases, imo. There is only one investigative tool that trumps jurisdictional linkage blindness; the American public"..


Seven Obstacles to Serial Murder Investigations
Why Serial Killers Remain at Large

http://voices.yahoo.com/seven-obstacles-serial-murder-investigations-41364.html

Any crime investigation has its challenges and protocols. In the case of serial murder investigations, there are seven major obstacles (Egger, 2002) law enforcement must overcome to be successful. They are presented here in no particular order of seriousness based on this authors perspective with the exception of linkage blindness which is all too common and at the top of the list.

· Linkage blindness

· Making a solid commitment to the investigation

· Coordination

· Analyzing large amounts of information

· Pressure from the public and the media

· Assessing the value of victimological information

· Analyzing previous serial murder investigations in order to determine appropriate actions for the current investigation

Linkage Blindness - Murders occurring in

 

[chelsea6]

No prison in all the world has the ability or desire to tape and then examine the tapes of every single idiotic sentence that drops out of the inmates in their jail.

However, it is very common for an undercover policeman to share a cell with a criminal.

It happened to a friend of mine, he was arrested and shoved in a cell with another guy, he said the urge to confide in the guy was almost overwhelming, just because you're shut in there together so closely.

Also crims narc on each other all the time, it's quite possible and legal to have the conversations taped if they have someone wishing to bargain for freedom.

No, this wasn't an undercover police officer. It is someone that was in there with this person, and when she/he was released told her/his mom what this person told her/him. ( I live in the area, so of course I hear a lot)

 

[Jacie Estes]

BBM

I completely agree, the details should be public once the perp's trial and appeals are over. I don't necessarily feel the details should be disseminated to the public at large, but the details should be available for those who seek that information. I hope that makes sense.

BBM -That is how it should be done. I don't want to watch NG or JVM have a field day with details. I really like how Heather stated her thoughts concerning this in the interview you linked further up-thread.

WHEN this murderer is caught, tried and convicted, and they will be, there will never be a chance for parole, the community will make sure of that. IMHO