IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #23

[otto]

Thank you so much! This description gives me added hope that whether or not weed debris was caught in their shoes would have indeed been another clue for LE.

I hope LE got tons of clues from the little bodies and the body site. IMHO, the more they learn from that site, the easier it will be for them to come up w/the "who, what, when, and where."

What was a green weed in July is a piece of brown dead, brittle decay in December.

 

[borndem]

I believe the girls were abducted at the lake where the bikes were found. My theory is that the perp had complete control over the girls from the beginning. First with a gun. In previous cases the perps used zip ties and duct tape to control them as soon as the children were placed in a vehicle.
The girls, having no life experience to help them figure out what to do,were in survival mode. Every choice each girl made, including cooperating, was in the hopes of surviving this experience and protecting her cousin.
These were two children, 8 and 10, frightened and making decisions under duress.
Normal decision making is out the window and adult decision making is still some years in the future. Under these conditions, it would be no surprise to me that the girls just did whatever they were told to do, including walking through the tall grass. MOO, of course.

ITA, SouthernMom -- I would only add that both of them were good kids, from all accounts, so they were used to following "orders" from teachers, parents, and other care-givers. As you said, they were terrified out of their wits -- not knowing any type of experience even close to where they found themselves, so they just did as they were told -- no screaming, kicking, trying to run, etc., etc., and who knoze what type of restraints were put on them...

Were they followed? Did they just ride up beside someone fishing or camping, dumping trash, or what?

I almost hope there was more than one kidnapper/killer, so that one will roll over on the other, but that thought is a double-edged sword...

 

[Snowbunny]

I asked this before, if Elizabeths flip flops were found with her, then doesn't that mean she walked in? Flip flops fall off easily.

Cinder, I believe it was Lyric who was wearing flip flops not Elizabeth.

 

[MNDad]

This is an interesting theory. Have you thought about why they would go willingly when they knew they had to be home so soon? Lyric may have stayed gone too long once, but Lizzie had never done that.
As a parent of two girls, I would think that Lyric wouldn't attempt it so soon since LE had been called the previous time she stayed gone so long.

My daughter is the exact same age as Lyric (Turned 11 in October). She is constantly manipulating what she can do and cannot do. She negotiates and when she loses, she is more likely to ask for forgiveness than permission. She isn't a bad kid at all. Doesn't do drugs, doesn't steal, isn't a bully; she really is a good kid, but she likes things her way. I worry about her because she does not seem to heed our advice on anything and I feel that stranger danger talks, as well as any other advice conversation goes in one ear and out the other. She acknowledges conversations, but then when she goes against them, we are met with responses like "I know that, but......" which tells me that even if she hears us, she doesn't care if it doesn't match what she wants to do. We have a big job ahead of us.

All that said, my point is that even good kids don't always listen to their parents.

 

[borndem]

My sisters and I all wear the cheap Old Navy flip-flops (usually sold 2/$5) all year round, just for house shoes. I wear them when I take my dogs out, and tall grass will sometimes get stuck where the plastic strap connects to the sole. All kind of things get stuck in the sole (since it's rubber-y): nutshells, small twigs, even a couple of splinters that worked their way through to my foot. Based on the photo of Lyric's flip-flops, I think it would be quite possible that some kind of organic evidence (leaves, twigs, etc.) could have been stuck either in the sole or in the space where the straps connect.

I've been following the case more closely since these precious girls were found, and I pray to God that justice is swift. I cannot understand the kind of evil that looks at these innocent souls full of hope and joy and promise, and then extinguishes it all.

I'm catching up here, and I'm late to do this, but

:skip:


:Welcome1:


GALADRIEL !!!

We're glad you're here!



:thewave:
​

 

[Marilynilpa]

I know, I was agreeing with you.:waitasec:

:floorlaugh:

Thanks, I'm not used to someone agreeing with me!

 

[gngr~snap]

I believe the girls were abducted at the lake where the bikes were found. My theory is that the perp had complete control over the girls from the beginning. First with a gun. In previous cases the perps used zip ties and duct tape to control them as soon as the children were placed in a vehicle.
The girls, having no life experience to help them figure out what to do, were in survival mode. Every choice each girl made, including cooperating, was in the hopes of surviving this experience and protecting her cousin.
These were two children, 8 and 10, frightened and making decisions under duress.
Normal decision making is out the window and adult decision making is still some years in the future. Under these conditions, it would be no surprise to me that the girls just did whatever they were told to do, including walking through the tall grass. MOO, of course.

Me too. If they were abducted anywhere else how did the bikes and purse get there?
Even if they were staged IMO it would take at LEAST 2 if not 3 people to do it!

1 person carrying two bikes?
or 2 people carrying bikes?
and 1 person to remain with girls?:banghead:
moo

 

[gngr~snap]

Just my opinion, but I think yes this is highly likely. When walking through tall grass, I have gotten grass caught in whatever footwear I had on at the moment and gotten plenty of those "hitchhikers" too. I don't know what else to call those little green sticky things.

I have gotten mud that seeped through the "thong" part between the toes as well.

Knowing that LE has the shoes I pray for DNA from them!
fiber evidence, animal hair something!!!!

eta: the high tops did we ever get a "similar" picture of them?
I assume they had laces~duh... what about velcro straps on them?

 

[joerose]

Good grief!!! I'm not asking if people can walk in flip flops... I'm not asking if people can walk through tall grass/weeds while wearing flip flops.

I'm very simply, IMHO & BBM, asking:

"If Lyric walked in, given the nature of flip-flops, I'm wondering if there would be pieces of grass caught in them? You know, the way grass gets caught in regular sandals?"

Here's my thoughts. I am an avid flip flop wearer. I often do yard work in flip flops and definitely if the grass or ground were damp or wet, the grass would stick to them and the flip flops would have gotten really dirty. I don't think that grass would have stuck to them if they were dry and had been out there for very long.

 

[cindersoot]

I think it was someone known to both girls, who said let me show you where I swim and they both went willingly.

Or..would you like to go with me and ride my horse.

 

[otto]

My daughter is the exact same age as Lyric (Turned 11 in October). She is constantly manipulating what she can do and cannot do. She negotiates and when she loses, she is more likely to ask for forgiveness than permission. She isn't a bad kid at all. Doesn't do drugs, doesn't steal, isn't a bully; she really is a good kid, but she likes things her way. I worry about her because she does not seem to heed our advice on anything and I feel that stranger danger talks, as well as any other advice conversation goes in one ear and out the other. She acknowledges conversations, but then when she goes against them, we are met with responses like "I know that, but......" which tells me that even if she hears us, she doesn't care if it doesn't match what she wants to do. We have a big job ahead of us.

All that said, my point is that even good kids don't always listen to their parents.

I think the problem can also be related to people not paying attention to details and, in general, thinking that they know better. I gave an exam recently. Prior to giving the exam, I repeat (many, many times) that students must pay attention to details, that they must go step by step through the exam ... not jump to the middle and start, not jump to the end and think they know what came before ... but step by step ... linear sequential. 80-90 % of the students don't listen. Sure they heard me, but they think they can do it their own way. Each student that does it his/her own way runs into a serious problem and each time he/she throws a hand in the air to announce that the exam is broken; doesn't work. They expect me to explain why things aren't working out as they should.

I give them one answer ... step by step from the beginning, pay attention to the details. These are not children, by the way, these are adults.

Since paying attention to details can be an important life skill, maybe seek out games where details make the difference. For example, an 11 might be interested in those "multiple ending" mystery books where it's all in the details.

 

[Gracelin]

Or..would you like to go with me and ride my horse.

no.no.no..lol

 

[joerose]

Or..would you like to go with me and ride my horse.

Or go get an icecream cone real quick before you go home. It'll just take a few minutes.

 

[otto]

Me too. If they were abducted anywhere else how did the bikes and purse get there?
Even if they were staged IMO it would take at LEAST 2 if not 3 people to do it!

1 person carrying two bikes?
or 2 people carrying bikes?
and 1 person to remain with girls?:banghead:
moo

I see two possibilities for one person:

1. girls abducted near Elizabeth's home, they and their bikes tossed into a vehicle, they are subdued one way or another, driven to Maiden Lane, bikes and purse taken from Maiden Lane a short 2 minute walk to drainage pipe area, back to vehicle, drive to 7 Bridges Park; and
2. girls lured to Meyers Lake, abducted near drainage pipe at Meyers Lake, forced to walk to Maiden Lane along narrow bank of Meyers Lake, subdued, driven to 7 Bridges Park.

 

[cindersoot]

After yesterdays school shooting and murder of 20 small children, my heart just pains for the sickening loss of innocent children.. May God Bless all these families.

 

[cindersoot]

On another note. After watching Heather and Drew's recent interview. I'm guessing that even when this case is solved and the killer is behind bars, that we may never know the details. Heather had mentioned that she asked LE not to disclose any details at all, that she never wants to know. I can understand her feelings. My curiosity wants to know the whys, hows so I can put it together in my mind.

 

[carbuff]

Me too. If they were abducted anywhere else how did the bikes and purse get there?
Even if they were staged IMO it would take at LEAST 2 if not 3 people to do it!

1 person carrying two bikes?
or 2 people carrying bikes?
and 1 person to remain with girls?:banghead:
moo

Looking at Otto's map, I'm more convinced than I was before (which means maybe 51% sure ) that they were taken very near the house, somewhere near those parking lots and stores.

One person. He may have used a ruse, such as bumping a bike with his car and then saying he'd help them get home, or he may have just grabbed the girls and thrown them and the bikes into a van.

I imagine he drove away from there before he killed them, then drove to 7 Bridges, then drove back to town and put the bikes and purse where they were found. But he might have driven to the lake, dumped the bikes, and then gone to 7 Bridges.

 

[TxLady2]

Yes, all states are contributing to the DNA database although the precise details of who is tested varies... but in many states, there are extensive backlogs of samples to be tested. The problem is twofold: doing the tests requires highly trained personnel and there just isn't enough funding in many states to keep up with the pace of testing.

As for how long it takes to run samples, that varies widely. The simplest DNA tests can be done in 48 hours; the really complex and sensitive tests can take up to 8 weeks to run.

Fingerprints are a lot faster and, due to advances in computer matching, can be done in as little as 20 minutes. That is, assuming that a reasonably complete print was left; partial fingerprints can be difficult to impossible to definitively match to any single person.

Also assuming that the owner of the fingerprints is in the database. Once in awhile they run prints that don't show up anywhere, because the subject has never been arrested and their prints are not in the system.

 

[Marilynilpa]

Or..would you like to go with me and ride my horse.

Cinder, I just KNEW you were going to say that, LOL!

 

[GrainneDhu]

Just for some perspective on the flip flops, many have said they don't know how she would have navigated the tall grass with flip flops. I think it is completely up to the person and their flip flopping skill. My husband can barely walk across the room in flip flops. I've hiked 5 miles in flip flops. I wear flip flops all the time, summer, winter, fall, I do it all. My flip flops don't fall off.

Personally, I think the girls walked in to where they were found. Most likely under threat.

I think there's a percentage of the population who have feet that are perfect for flip flops. The rest of the population, not so much.

It may also have something to do with youth; when I was a kid, my flip flops never fell off and I could run in them. As an adult, I never get them anymore because they fall off my feet every couple steps.

It's likely that the only tall grass that had to be navigated was at the very beginning of the walk into the woods and then in the clearing where they were found. Under the heavy tree canopy, there are usually plants but there's usually leaf litter around each plant. It's relatively open in the deep shade.