IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #24

[Simp]

Oh, I see it says he was hospitalized in the article. That's what I get for rushing thru and not actually reading!

LOL, no problem. It happens to all of us. Actually, happened to me just yesterday in another thread. Haha!!:blushing:

 

[GrainneDhu]

I'm not disturbed by the past tense usage, but the uncles manner of death is disturbing. But I guess is someone is a substance abuser it can happen, especially in times of severe stress.
As to the idea of the girls witnessing a drug deal, (it has been bantered around a bit} I knew a drug user and most of the drug deals he was involved in were quite public. He'd just call his "friend" and meet up at a convience store and make an exchange while appearing to have just run into each other. One would stay in their car and the other would approach. Most drug deals are so common looking I doubt is they would bat an eye at being seen by an adult even. And for a big drug deal I think that would be carried out in a house. I seriously don't think even the most paranoid drug dealer is going to do anything to 2 young kids straying by. This isn't the 70's. Drug deals are much more common and take place everywhere.

The uncle did survive the overdose; just want to keep the facts straight.

I totally agree about the drug deal thing. If two kids did see a drug deal going down, would they even recognise it? It isn't like drug dealers hand over huge tubs marked "ILLEGAL DRUGS" in exchange for big bags of money marked "ILLEGAL CASH."

Plus, what would happen if a child witnessed a drug deal? I think most prosecutors would think five or six times before putting a child of 8 or 10 in the witness chair. It's stressful and it leaves not just an avenue for appeal but a gigantic freeway.

And, um, just to set the record straight: drug deals were extremely common in both the 60s and the 70s. Where I went to high school, the school administration made a deal with us students that we could smoke in a certain set of bathrooms on days with foul weather so long as we didn't smoke marijuana in the bathrooms or on the front steps of the school. I'd reveal more but I don't remember it. <snicker>

 

[GrainneDhu]

Everyone will know it is his vehicle and he will have to answer to why he was there. It will put him on LE's radar at least.

If he lives in Evansdale? "I was driving home for lunch."

I can't believe that they haven't found any identifiable vehicles on tape; I think the problem is that they have too many vehicles and no way to eliminate most of them.

 

[threecrazykids]

If he lives in Evansdale? "I was driving home for lunch."

I can't believe that they haven't found any identifiable vehicles on tape; I think the problem is that they have too many vehicles and no way to eliminate most of them.

I am torn with what I believe right now. On one hand I think LE is laying low and wanting the perp to sweat it out or become smug thinking they have nothing...yet they are quietly watching, waiting for the perp to slip up (as seen with Evelyn Miller).

On the other hand, I am not so sure LE has ANYTHING to go on.:banghead: One would think that if they had SOME piece of evidence and really needed that last nail in the coffin they would come forward with that something that might trigger someone's memory or show that piece of evidence that could seal the deal.

Are they not releasing anything because they don't NEED anything...or because they don't HAVE anything?:waitasec:

 

[SapphireSteel]

If he lives in Evansdale? "I was driving home for lunch."

I can't believe that they haven't found any identifiable vehicles on tape; I think the problem is that they have too many vehicles and no way to eliminate most of them.

I have to disagree.

Evansdale is a small quiet corner of the world.

There are Caseys on (it seems) every street corner, and every Caseys has a cctv.

As well as municpal cctvs, and other private businesses.

There are cctvs on most major highways, even if you don't see them. There are red light cameras, which work on number plate recognition, for traffic control. There is also satellite which essentially records everything from above, a bit like Google Earth, except it runs and records constantly.

There are cell phone towers which record pings, and a lot of people have GPS either in their phones or cars.

I have always believed that LE has a very good idea of who was on the roads and streets of Evansdale that day. An analysis of shop receipts, peoples memories, work records, and private cctvs will enable them to identify and probably eliminate all ordinary local traffic.

A city like New York - virtually impossible to track like that.

A town like Evansdale with no undergrounds, pretty much one way in and one way out, and only a couple of hundred cars on the streets in any given day...I think they largely know who did what and who went where, but I also think they have a mystery vehicle or two that they cannot explain, which managed to be recorded on only one or two cctvs.

A local would know how to avoid cctvs. Whoever did this got into Evansdale for one reason only, then straight back out again, in my opinion, that's why no one saw them.

:cow:

 

[Marilynilpa]

I spent a few hours today on crankycrankerson's site, reading the articles and viewing the videos. After yesterday's discussions about the girls never making it to the lake, I needed to refresh my memory on a few things.

One thing that jumped out at me was this information provided on 9/13/12:

Chief Deputy Richard Abben said they're getting tips every day, although not as many as they received the first few weeks. They have confirmed additional people saw Lyric and Elizabeth the day of their disappearance.

Thursday, they issued a plea for anyone who was in the Arbutus Avenue, Gilbert Drive, and Elmer Avenue areas on July 13th, and who may have seen the girls, to call police. Several witnesses reported seeing the cousins in this area between 12:30 and 1:00 that afternoon.

http://www.wxow.com/story/19544827/marking-two-months-since-elizabeth-lyric-disappeared

BBM

So if "additional people" and/or "several witnesses" reported seeing Lyric and Lizzie in the areas of Arbutus Avenue, Gilbert Drive, and Elmer Avenue between 12:30 and 1:00, that indicates the girls DID ride their bikes much further than just looping around the Collins' house. And that puts them fairly close to the lake, right?

This is one thing that makes me feel the girls did make it to the lake, and were not abducted in the area near Lizzie's home.

I don't want this to be an extremely long post, so I'll put some additional thoughts in another post.

 

[GrainneDhu]

I am torn with what I believe right now. On one hand I think LE is laying low and wanting the perp to sweat it out or become smug thinking they have nothing...yet they are quietly watching, waiting for the perp to slip up (as seen with Evelyn Miller).

On the other hand, I am not so sure LE has ANYTHING to go on.:banghead: One would think that if they had SOME piece of evidence and really needed that last nail in the coffin they would come forward with that something that might trigger someone's memory or show that piece of evidence that could seal the deal.

Are they not releasing anything because they don't NEED anything...or because they don't HAVE anything?:waitasec:

In the Evelyn Miller case, the LE spokespeople made it clear from almost the beginning who their top and only suspect was: Casey Frederickson (who was recently charged). It was subtle but if you kept following the case, the pattern was clear. Any time LE went over what happened that night, they did so in such a way that it pointed out the giant holes in Frederickson's story.

Plus, it's not like Frederickson was going anywhere. He's been in prison on unrelated charges for most of the last 5 years.

I don't see LE doing anything of the sort in this case. They don't keep talking about one single person, they don't keep bringing that person's story up repeatedly.

I do think that this is one of the hardest cases to solve: where the perpetrator is not closely tied to the victims. Because Evansdale is so small, it may be that when there is an arrest, one or more family members will recognise that person but I think it will be along the lines of "oh, he worked at X business where I stopped in every week."

 

[GrainneDhu]

I spent a few hours today on crankycrankerson's site, reading the articles and viewing the videos. After yesterday's discussions about the girls never making it to the lake, I need to refresh my memory on a few things.

One thing that jumped out at me was this information provided on 9/13/12:

Chief Deputy Richard Abben said they're getting tips every day, although not as many as they received the first few weeks. They have confirmed additional people saw Lyric and Elizabeth the day of their disappearance.

Thursday, they issued a plea for anyone who was in the Arbutus Avenue, Gilbert Drive, and Elmer Avenue areas on July 13th, and who may have seen the girls, to call police. Several witnesses reported seeing the cousins in this area between 12:30 and 1:00 that afternoon.

http://www.wxow.com/story/19544827/marking-two-months-since-elizabeth-lyric-disappeared

BBM

So if "additional people" and/or "several witnesses" reported seeing Lyric and Lizzie in the areas of Arbutus Avenue, Gilbert Drive, and Elmer Avenue between 12:30 and 1:00, that indicates the girls DID ride their bikes much further than just looping around the Collins' house. And that puts them fairly close to the lake, right?

This is one thing that makes me feel the girls did make it to the lake, and were not abducted in the area near Lizzie's home.

I don't want this to be an extremely long post, so I'll put some additional thoughts in another post.

That is why I've believed that the girls were abducted from where their bicycles were found by Meyer's Lake. In one of the most recent articles, Abben said that they were seen near the lake between 12:30 pm and 1:00 pm.

 

[Marilynilpa]

The following snippet is basically the same info:

&#8220;Today marks two months since the disappearance of 11-year-old Lyric Cook and 9-year-old Elizabeth Collins,&#8221; Rick Abben, chief deputy at the Black Hawk County Sheriff&#8217;s Office, said in a statement Thursday. &#8220;Both girls were last seen on July 13 at 12:15 p.m. riding their bicycles away from the Collins residence in Evansdale. We have information that the girls were seen approximately 12:23 p.m. on Brovan Blvd. and between 12:30 and 1:00 p.m. on Gilbert DR. in the area of Meyers Lake in Evansdale.&#8221;

BBM

The surveillance video from the auction house showed a time of 12:11 p.m., but according to Mr. Pahl, the camera was about 8 minutes off. That would make the time about 12:19 p.m.

So if the girls were seen around 12:23 p.m. on Brovan, that was after they passed the auction house. From there, witnesses saw them between 12:30 and 1:00 p.m. on Gilbert Drive. I wonder if this ties in with Mr. Carpenter's sighting.

If the above times are right, then TG's sighting of the bikes couldn't have occurred on the day he thought it did. The timing just wouldn't fit in with the above times released by LE. JMO

And if the above times are correct, I do not think the girls were abducted near the Collins' house. I think they went to the lake that day, on a lark or for some other reason, and were abducted from there. JMO

ETA: Yikes, I forgot to include the link:

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlin...-missing-2-months-authorities-plead-for-help/

 

[SapphireSteel]

I have never known why Mr C and Mr G have been disregarded, myself.

They both appear to be very credible, very certain, and have provided sightings independently of each other, which fit together.

The dogs also indicated to the girls at the lake.

In my opinion, they got to the lake. Or very close to it. The question then becomes, why? If they did get there, they must've been biking like the clappers, also I am mindful of the fb rumour that they stopped and actually asked for directions to the lake, implying they weren't quite sure how to get there, but knew where they were going. A first time trip for a specific reason.

Of couse opinion only.

 

[carbuff]

I have a friend who works on the Innocence Project. Her experiences have led me to develop a deep distrust of eyewitness accounts. Especially when they don't quite all fit the timeline.

Though it seems there are enough people who did see them to make it likely they were at the lake, or near it...I dunno. Something just feels off about that.

 

[JaimeInLA]

The one thing meth addicts can be relied upon to do is run their mouths. There would be rumours and people turning in tips on the same person like mad if a meth addict had anything to do with this.

There is a huge difference between meth addicts and meth dealers and meth manufacturers and meth distributors. I totally agree with you about meth addicts (and probably dealers). But distributors and manufacturers are RUTHLESS. They are the ones that deal in BIG MONEY, and would kill anyone at the drop of a hat who they thought interfered with their profits. And they are also deadly silent and buttoned up.

 

[SoBeCzar]

In the Evelyn Miller case, the LE spokespeople made it clear from almost the beginning who their top and only suspect was: Casey Frederickson (who was recently charged). It was subtle but if you kept following the case, the pattern was clear. Any time LE went over what happened that night, they did so in such a way that it pointed out the giant holes in Frederickson's story.

Plus, it's not like Frederickson was going anywhere. He's been in prison on unrelated charges for most of the last 5 years.

I don't see LE doing anything of the sort in this case. They don't keep talking about one single person, they don't keep bringing that person's story up repeatedly.

I do think that this is one of the hardest cases to solve: where the perpetrator is not closely tied to the victims. Because Evansdale is so small, it may be that when there is an arrest, one or more family members will recognise that person but I think it will be along the lines of "oh, he worked at X business where I stopped in every week."

I think LE had a totally different theory on what was going on until the bodies were found. I think that made them take a new stance. It's not that they weren't looking at every possible scenario before but I believe they were leaning in a different direction.
Though I am not married to any theory, I have been leaning towards a local man cruising after work or on his day off to abduct a child. He may be known to the family just due to the fact it is a small town. The girls may have known him just because they had seen him in the area before.
I think he lured the girls to approach his vehicle and snatched them. I'm hoping there will be dna on the girls clothing or fibers or something. It is surprising how advanced testing for dna can be even when time has past and the elements have done their thing.
The area the girls were found in also opened up new clues as to the killer being a hunter and his possible location or areas he ventures to. I think it reinforces the theory of a local.
That makes me think of a white male. Most killers are male and they usually kill within their own race, especially if it is sexually motivated.
He's local.
He's at least late 20's and has his own vehicle. This doesn't seem like a teen with limits on his use of a vehicle and school and a curfew.
He's employed. This is a crime that seems to be the work of an organized killer. No hasty dumping of the bodies and even possible staging of the bikes. He would be stable enough to work and need a job to pay for his residence and vehicle.
His vehicle is a van or older SUV. Nothing that stands out as new and large enough to hide victims in.
Not particularly clean cut or good looking as I think he doesn't have much luck with women and doesn't worry about his hygiene because of it.
He's either not married or has a marriage where he is dominate. That's just my armchair profiling. It leaves most everyone as a suspect.

 

[GrainneDhu]

I have a friend who works on the Innocence Project. Her experiences have led me to develop a deep distrust of eyewitness accounts. Especially when they don't quite all fit the timeline.

Though it seems there are enough people who did see them to make it likely they were at the lake, or near it...I dunno. Something just feels off about that.

I am a dedicated follower and supporter of the Innocence Project, too.

I agree with you about eyewitness accounts. But while one eyewitness may be wrong and two may be mistaken, what if there's three independent accounts that say much the same thing? It seems pretty clear that TG's account cannot be correct, since the earliest time that LE specifies the girls may have been near the lake as 12:30 pm. But is it reasonable to think all the witnesses, including the ones who have not come forward in the media, are also mistaken?

Along with the bicycles being found at Meyer's Lake and the dogs finding scent other than on the bicycles near the lake, I think it points to a single conclusion, that the girls were at the lake that day.

Maybe it was the very first time Elizabeth and Lyric went there but that doesn't exclude something bad happening. Etan Patz was walking to his bus stop alone for the very first time when he was abducted. It's not unheard of.

 

[Marilynilpa]

Here's another mention of times the girls were seen:

Authorities said the girls left Elizabeth's house in Evansdale around 12:15 p.m., were spotted at approximately 12:23 p.m. at a nearby intersection and then were seen between 12:30 and 1 p.m. on a road by the lake.

Read On ABC News Radio: http://abcnewsradioonline.com/national-news/tag/lyric-cook

Sorry for beating a dead horse regarding these sightings, but I wanted to have three different sources for this info in case one was not sufficient.

Okay, I've done what I can to bolster my theory that the girls rode their bikes to the lake July 13. I feel they were abducted from the lake area where their bikes were found. JMO

 

[SoBeCzar]

I have a friend who works on the Innocence Project. Her experiences have led me to develop a deep distrust of eyewitness accounts. Especially when they don't quite all fit the timeline.

Though it seems there are enough people who did see them to make it likely they were at the lake, or near it...I dunno. Something just feels off about that.

Yep. Watching enough true crime shows has taught me eyewitness accounts are notoriously fallible. Especially when it is to something that lasts only moments.

 

[GrainneDhu]

There is a huge difference between meth addicts and meth dealers and meth manufacturers and meth distributors. I totally agree with you about meth addicts (and probably dealers). But distributors and manufacturers are RUTHLESS. They are the ones that deal in BIG MONEY, and would kill anyone at the drop of a hat who they thought interfered with their profits. And they are also deadly silent and buttoned up.

I would be surprised, though, to discover that someone high on the food chain was transacting any deals in Evansdale.

Even if there were, those guys are not stupid. They know that if they make two little girls go poof, it will draw all sorts of LE attention that they don't want. To me, it's the same reasoning I used to rule out human trafficking: it's just not a viable business model.

If meth was involved in this crime, I expect it to be a user who was also a traveller, who came into town, committed the crime and left. While it would take a lot of luck for such a person to find the two known crime scenes, well, stranger things have happened.

It's only in fiction where things have to make sense.

 

[SapphireSteel]

I have a friend who works on the Innocence Project. Her experiences have led me to develop a deep distrust of eyewitness accounts. Especially when they don't quite all fit the timeline.

Though it seems there are enough people who did see them to make it likely they were at the lake, or near it...I dunno. Something just feels off about that.

The timing is extremely tight if Mr G's sighting of the bikes is correct.

I have a feeling it is.

The dogs confirmed the girls were there...or at least, that the girl's scent was there.

That either implies that they got to the lake, or, someone went to a great deal of trouble to intercept them on the way then arrange the scene to appear that the girls got to the lake.

Considering the placement of the purse and the comments of Deputy Abben, the staging suggestion is about the only thing that makes to me. Staging a scene seems far fetched but is actually very common in crimes of this sort.

All Mr G saw was the bikes. It is entirely possible the perp/s were still on the scene, possibly the girls too, just hiding while he went by.

:cow:

 

[JaimeInLA]

Here's another mention of times the girls were seen:

Authorities said the girls left Elizabeth's house in Evansdale around 12:15 p.m., were spotted at approximately 12:23 p.m. at a nearby intersection and then were seen between 12:30 and 1 p.m. on a road by the lake.

Read On ABC News Radio: http://abcnewsradioonline.com/national-news/tag/lyric-cook

Sorry for beating a dead horse regarding these sightings, but I wanted to have three different sources for this info in case one was not sufficient.

Okay, I've done what I can to bolster my theory that the girls rode their bikes to the lake July 13. I feel they were abducted from the lake area where their bikes were found. JMO

Thank you so much. That was very helpful! I have said since the day the surveillance tape was released that TG's sighting can't possibly be accurate. The question is, was he purposefully deceptive or just mistaken? Given his determination to have his witness account heard (by media, police) and the detailed account he provided (exact time, exact location, exact activities surrounding swerving around the bikes) and his return to the scene the day after the sighting to talk to searchers AGAIN -- I have a really hard time believing he was mistaken.

But we can't talk about why he might be purposefully deceptive..... :banghead:

 

[Marilynilpa]

I have a friend who works on the Innocence Project. Her experiences have led me to develop a deep distrust of eyewitness accounts. Especially when they don't quite all fit the timeline.

Though it seems there are enough people who did see them to make it likely they were at the lake, or near it...I dunno. Something just feels off about that.

LE has played things close to the vest in this case, so for Abben to release info about sightings of the girls indicates that LE believed it was credible info. JMO