IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #24

[otto]

I disagree, in that while I don't think they understood the risks involved, I think if they were allowed 3 blocks in either direction, riding 1 mile would be a huge risk. They risked being late for grandma, they risked being caught by their moms, they risked losing their bike riding privileges if they were caught. Not to mention Lyric had the police called a few days prior to this, I don't think she would ride that far away and risk getting in trouble again.

I have to agree with that. The two girls had just poured themselves some juice and left it on the counter. Then they went out for a short bike ride. Their grandmother watched them riding in the nearby area - calling distance. All of a sudden, she couldn't see them anymore. Lyric knew that her grandmother had an appointment and that she wasn't allowed to take off for a long bike ride. If an adult can make the ride in about 10 minutes, then two children, one on a bmx bike, would need about 25 minutes to make the round trip. I'm sure they knew better than to disappear for that length of time.

If they weren't abducted at the lake, then they were most likely abducted within a block of the house ... and that brings me back to the first question asked by investigators: why were they riding away from the house, past Cornbelt Auction and in the wrong direction to get to the lake? Was that part of their bike riding loop, or did they encounter someone in their short bike ride that gave them a reason to go there.

 

[Mjskit]

I disagree, in that while I don't think they understood the risks involved, I think if they were allowed 3 blocks in either direction, riding 1 mile would be a huge risk. They risked being late for grandma, they risked being caught by their moms, they risked losing their bike riding privileges if they were caught. Not to mention Lyric had the police called a few days prior to this, I don't think she would ride that far away and risk getting in trouble again.

Unless someone they knew and trusted told them there had been a change of plans. The girls would 'know' they weren't going anywhere. IMO

 

[SapphireSteel]

I disagree, in that while I don't think they understood the risks involved, I think if they were allowed 3 blocks in either direction, riding 1 mile would be a huge risk. They risked being late for grandma, they risked being caught by their moms, they risked losing their bike riding privileges if they were caught. Not to mention Lyric had the police called a few days prior to this, I don't think she would ride that far away and risk getting in trouble again.

With all due respect, I am going to assume that Elizabeth at least made a habit of riding quite far.

She was a friendly little girl riding the streets of her hometown, there is absolutely nothing sinister about that, until now.

Her parents and grandma probably told them not to "go too far" but when I was a kid, "too far" was when my legs conked out, which could be 5 or 10 miles away. You could go anywhere and no one was any the wiser or even slightly alarmed as long as you turn back up when you're expected to. Doing something harmless and secretive behind the adults backs is often irresistable at that age, even to the most well behaved child.

Children this age enjoy the feeling of zipping around town on their own. They love the freedom a bike gives them, their first ever vehicle. They love secrets, and mysteries. They will push the boundaries too, especially if there's an older one egging the younger one on. If there's "cool" kids hanging out somewhere, they will try to meet up with them, somehow. Maybe not that day, maybe another day, like when Lyric went missing previously with HER older cousin.

Either way, I think that Mr C knew Elizabeth, and had seen her "often" as he described, and he saw her that day when he said he did. This means that she got down that way reasonably frequently, and may not have even realised her mum and grandma considered it "too far" for her to go. It may just never have come up.

I believe the girls were on some sort of a mission. I think they were in a hurry to get to the lake for a particular reason, which is why Lizzie didn't stop and say hello to Mr C that day, and also why they appear to have got there in next to no time. They were rushing, and rushed straight into the perp's open arms.

:cow:

 

[otto]

With all due respect, I think we can assume that Elizabeth at least made a habit of riding quite far.

She was a friendly little girl riding the streets of her hometown, there is absolutely nothing sinister about that, until now.

Her parents and grandma probably told them not to "go too far" but when I was a kid, "too far" was when my legs conked out, which could be 5 or 10 miles away. You could go anywhere and no one was any the wiser or even slightly alarmed as long as you turn back up when you're expected to. Doing something harmless and secretive behind the adults backs is often irresistable at that age, even to the most well behaved child.

Children this age enjoy the feeling of zipping around town on their own. They love the freedom a bike gives them, their first ever vehicle. They love secrets, and mysteries. They will push the boundaries too, especially if there's an older one egging the younger one on. If there's "cool" kids hanging out somewhere, they will try to meet up with them, somehow. Maybe not that day, maybe another day, like when Lyric went missing previously with HER older cousin.

Either way, I think that Mr C knew Elizabeth, and had seen her "often" as he described, and he saw her that day when he said he did. This means that she got down that way reasonably frequently, and may not have even realised her mum and grandma considered it "too far" for her to go. It may just never have come up.

I believe the girls were on some sort of a mission. I think they were in a hurry to get to the lake for a particular reason, which is why Lizzie didn't stop and say hello to Mr C that day, and also why they appear to have got there in next to no time. They were rushing, and rushed straight into the perp's open arms.

:cow:

We cannot assume that Elizabeth made a habit of riding quite far. The lawn watering man and his wife claim that they saw Elizabeth every evening riding on Lake Avenue and visiting with the people on that street. This street is more than a mile from where Elizabeth lived. If this was true, her parents would have confirmed that Elizabeth left on bike for more than 30 minutes on a daily basis.

Every child is different, and I don't think that we have heard that Elizabeth was particularly interested in secrets and mysteries. In fact, I had the opposite impression. Heather said that each evening she and Elizabeth shared a bowl of ice cream together. It sounds like they were very close, not full of secrets.

 

[iamnotagolem]

I believe someone mentioned a delivery driver? Look across Lafayette from the parking lot the girls would do their loop through (the one with the post office). There is a Casey's General store right across the street (not the one Misty works at, not the one MK was seen on surviellance on).

Weird that 3 Casey's general stores have come into play, maybe? Which Casey's did they pull receipts from?

Back to my thought, maybe the delivery guy at Casey's saw them across the street in the post office parking lot and took them and their bikes. Bound and gagged the girls, then continued to his stop on Lake Forest Rd at that Casey's (MK seen on Surveillance) then on to the lake to ditch the bikes, back on the road to the one Misty worked at. Next stop 7 bridges park before hitting his next stop in Fairbanks at that Casey's.

 

[iamnotagolem]

Otto, could you pretty please put that scenario on a map? If it isn't too much trouble? Mapping from Casey's on Lafayette, to Casey's on Forest River, to Casey's in Elk Run, to seven bridge to Casey's in Fairbank?

 

[georger]

I have to agree with that. The two girls had just poured themselves some juice and left it on the counter. Then they went out for a short bike ride. Their grandmother watched them riding in the nearby area - calling distance. All of a sudden, she couldn't see them anymore. Lyric knew that her grandmother had an appointment and that she wasn't allowed to take off for a long bike ride. If an adult can make the ride in about 10 minutes, then two children, one on a bmx bike, would need about 25 minutes to make the round trip. I'm sure they knew better than to disappear for that length of time.

If they weren't abducted at the lake, then they were most likely abducted within a block of the house ... and that brings me back to the first question asked by investigators: why were they riding away from the house, past Cornbelt Auction and in the wrong direction to get to the lake? Was that part of their bike riding loop, or did they encounter someone in their short bike ride that gave them a reason to go there.

I am frustrated! What we need in this case is one of those cowboy movie
Indian trackers or a CSI rockstar who can track a mosquito for 100 miles,
40 days after the mosquito passed over dessert terrain, or through a swamp,
over water, past Andromeda on the way to Sirius, could catch a scent trail at the
Lake and find it again in town within a block of the girl's house, could see
footprints or tire tracks in and around the girl's bikes, etc etc etc and connect
the dots ... in other words: this aint rocket science!? Something. Anything! Send in
the Hollywood miracle makers since modern forensics seems totally inept! How come
the perps are always a hundred steps ahead and vanished in a cloud of "I dunno!"
and press releases from professionals!?

:banghead:

 

[SapphireSteel]

There will be an arrest soon, I am confident of that.

Just maybe not "CSI" soon.

 

[otto]

Otto, could you pretty please put that scenario on a map? If it isn't too much trouble? Mapping from Casey's on Lafayette, to Casey's on Forest River, to Casey's in Elk Run, to seven bridge to Casey's in Fairbank?

Casey on Lafayette, River Front, Elk Run Heights and the location where the girls were found

 

[Bootsctr]

It is scary, but I did it, so did the hundreds of kids I went to school with, all grown up safe and with kids of their own now who are also doing it.

The kids of today are at far more risk of dying before their parents simply because of obesity, due largely to the fact they don't walk or bike anywhere any more. The fat is far more likely to kill them than a creeper on the street.

I know Iowa is kind of in a state of "should we panic?" but we still don't know more than day one, which is the girls vanished.

We don't know it was a predator, some of us (me) are very skeptical that it was. Some of us see far more likely motives.

I don't even think the girls were assaulted, personally, just executed. Time will tell.



:cow:

I agree! Until now I believed the girls more than likely had been abducted to the lake. Unless someone comes forward and positively says they saw the girls at Meyers Lake at such and such time, I believe it is just as likely the lake scene was staged as SS stated much earlier in the investigation. Staging indicates to me it could be a seasoned predator/executioner.

 

[Bootsctr]

This makes me wonder if Elizabeth was more adventurous than the family knew. I know when I was that age I was in the habit of going places and just not bothering to say anything unless I got caught, and my mom didn't seem to realize that I didn't get caught every time. Mostly I didn't go very far, but I remember having a fascination with water. I could have drowned a dozen times over and she wouldn't have had a clue as to where to look.

I bet she was a very adventurous and precocious young lady. She was in the lead on the video of the girls cycling. Though younger, she may have had more leader qualities than Lyric. I don't know how often Lyric was around her brother, but Elizabeth had other siblings. Being the oldest, she probably was the "little mama" to her younger brother.

 

[chelsea6]

Never did this before.. see if it works. A picture from last night of back of Casey's, possible location where gate is open.

 

[chelsea6]

Now alley behind Lofty's

 

[chelsea6]

Driving behind both locations, the only hard time I had to get out of was menuevering behind Lofty's. Very tight spot, and only one direction to go in. I had to make a right and then go through the stored semi trailer( beds??) to get out of there, which opened up to all the backs of the businesses, in full view of all the houses. The other end I drove into went to the parking lot of Lofty's, then out into the street.

 

[JaimeInLA]

Driving behind both locations, the only hard time I had to get out of was menuevering behind Lofty's. Very tight spot, and only one direction to go in. I had to make a right and then go through the stored semi trailer( beds??) to get out of there, which opened up to all the backs of the businesses, in full view of all the houses. The other end I drove into went to the parking lot of Lofty's, then out into the street.

Thanks for doing this Chelsea. I appreciate your local knowledge. Both these areas look super creepy to me.

 

[carbuff]

Driving behind both locations, the only hard time I had to get out of was menuevering behind Lofty's. Very tight spot, and only one direction to go in. I had to make a right and then go through the stored semi trailer( beds??) to get out of there, which opened up to all the backs of the businesses, in full view of all the houses. The other end I drove into went to the parking lot of Lofty's, then out into the street.

Wow, thanks!

 

[chelsea6]

Thanks for doing this Chelsea. I appreciate your local knowledge. Both these areas look super creepy to me.

Oh, your welcome!! Anything I can do to help find the killer. lease:

 

[Marilynilpa]

I bet she was a very adventurous and precocious young lady. She was in the lead on the video of the girls cycling. Though younger, she may have had more leader qualities than Lyric. I don't know how often Lyric was around her brother, but Elizabeth had other siblings. Being the oldest, she probably was the "little mama" to her younger brother.

BBM

I agree about Lizzie - both of her parents mentioned how much she liked to boss her brother around. And I can also see her playing the role of "little mama" to her younger sisters.

But IIRC, Lizzie's brother is older than her. Someone please set me straight if I have that wrong.

 

[Marilynilpa]

Hm, I didn't realize Tammy was the one who suggested they look there.

Quote from Tammy Brousseau:

So Mom came and got me. We got a phone call back from Drew (ph), Elizabeth`s father, saying, You guys need to get back here and help. So me and Mom jumped in the car, and right away we came back. Kelly -- we picked up Kelly, the 12-year-old son, and we started going to all these places that they`d already checked.

I said immediately to my mom, I said, Take me to Meyers Lake, take me to Meyers Lake. This is approximately a quarter to 2:00 when I asked -- or a quarter to 3:00 when I asked Mom to take me to Meyers Lake.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1207/19/ng.01.html

I have two comments about Tammy wanting to go to the lake.

1. I believe she may have known that Lizzie and/or Lyric had biked to the lake before. After all, it was Tammy who knew that Lizzie had biked to the lake with a couple of girls from the neighborhood.

2. Wylma had driven around town, looking for the girls. Tammy went with her a second time to check out the places they'd already checked (see transcript quote above). Since the lake had not been checked at that point, it seems rather logical that Tammy would suggest they go there. JMO.

 

[Marilynilpa]

With all due respect, I am going to assume that Elizabeth at least made a habit of riding quite far.

She was a friendly little girl riding the streets of her hometown, there is absolutely nothing sinister about that, until now.

Her parents and grandma probably told them not to "go too far" but when I was a kid, "too far" was when my legs conked out, which could be 5 or 10 miles away. You could go anywhere and no one was any the wiser or even slightly alarmed as long as you turn back up when you're expected to. Doing something harmless and secretive behind the adults backs is often irresistable at that age, even to the most well behaved child.

Children this age enjoy the feeling of zipping around town on their own. They love the freedom a bike gives them, their first ever vehicle. They love secrets, and mysteries. They will push the boundaries too, especially if there's an older one egging the younger one on. If there's "cool" kids hanging out somewhere, they will try to meet up with them, somehow. Maybe not that day, maybe another day, like when Lyric went missing previously with HER older cousin.

Either way, I think that Mr C knew Elizabeth, and had seen her "often" as he described, and he saw her that day when he said he did. This means that she got down that way reasonably frequently, and may not have even realised her mum and grandma considered it "too far" for her to go. It may just never have come up.

I believe the girls were on some sort of a mission. I think they were in a hurry to get to the lake for a particular reason, which is why Lizzie didn't stop and say hello to Mr C that day, and also why they appear to have got there in next to no time. They were rushing, and rushed straight into the perp's open arms.

:cow:

BBM

But in this case, being back when they were expected would have been about every 15-20 minutes or so, IIRC. Isn't that how often Wylma said the girls would stop, come in, grab something to drink, and go back out? Plus the fact that both girls knew Wylma had plans that meant they had to be home at a certain time.

I don't recall if I've ever seen a specific comment from Heather or Drew as to the maximum amount of time Lizzie was allowed to be out on her bike. Maybe she did ride far enough, and often enough, to be seen by Mr. C and other neighbors.

My sister and I recently reminisced about how far we used to ride our bikes, without our parents knowing. However, these were rides taken during summer when school was out and both our parents were at work, so we didn't have to worry about checking in with someone at home.

Regarding the girls being "on a mission", I have always felt that way. But now I am beginning to wonder if that "mission" ended before they ever made it to the lake. Without opening a whole can of worms over TG's sighting, I've come to believe he was incorrect as to what he saw or when he saw it. And without his sighting, I wonder if the girls DID make it to Meyers Lake that day. :waitasec: