IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #24

[otto]

That is correct. But in addition to that, Mr C also said he was familiar with Elizabeth because she would ride her bike to the end of his street, turn around, and wave at him -- frequently.

But who is right ... the family that claims Elizabeth had been to the lake a couple of times with two neighbor friends, or the guy that lives a mile away who claims he saw Elizabeth every night as she rode her bike and visited with people on his street? If she visited with people on his street, wouldn't she also visit with people on each street between home and a mile away ... why only on his street?

 

[otto]

Facts and Jmo.

#1. The girls were comfortable and felt friendly towards the perp at first.

#2. The perp is a local.

#3. The perp is very familiar with the area and has lived in the area of Waterloo, Evansdale,Dunkerton, Readlyn for many years.

#4. The perp is not a RSO, but had fantasies of child abduction and molestation. He finally fullfilled his fantasy.

#5. The perp is an avid hunter.

#6. The perp blends well into the community and has been regarded as a good citizen.


Remember, JMO.

I don't know ... I don't see any reason to assume that the perp was friendly with the girls. I suspect that when someone is abducting two children, they aren't all that friendly. Maybe the perp was more authoritative, simply ordering the children to do what he wanted them to do. He may have simply grabbed first one, and then the other.

I agree that the person that did this is local. Police have said that from the beginning - that everyone needed to look at the neighbors and report anyone that was out of character, who had business in the area that morning, so on.

It's quite likely that the perp has some prior criminal history, but perhaps nothing on record. I doubt anyone starts their criminal career with the abduction and murder of two young children.

I don't know about former hunting experience. 7 Bridges Park was a popular community park before it was popular with hunters.

Most criminals blend well into society ... that is, it's common for people that know a criminal to say, after the fact, "I had no idea!".

 

[Marilynilpa]

I don't know ... I don't see any reason to assume that the perp was friendly with the girls. I suspect that when someone is abducting two children, they aren't all that friendly. Maybe the perp was more authoritative, simply ordering the children to do what he wanted them to do. He may have simply grabbed first one, and then the other.

I agree that the person that did this is local. Police have said that from the beginning - that everyone needed to look at the neighbors and report anyone that was out of character, who had business in the area that morning, so on.

It's quite likely that the perp has some prior criminal history, but perhaps nothing on record. I doubt anyone starts their criminal career with the abduction and murder of two young children.

I don't know about former hunting experience. 7 Bridges Park was a popular community park before it was popular with hunters.

Most criminals blend well into society ... that is, it's common for people that know a criminal to say, after the fact, "I had no idea!".

BBM

Yes, it isn't very common to hear someone say "I knew it all along!" after someone is arrested for murder.

I feel that whoever did this wears a mask that completely hides his true self, even from those closest to them. JMO

 

[JaimeInLA]

But who is right ... the family that claims Elizabeth had been to the lake a couple of times with two neighbor friends, or the guy that lives a mile away who claims he saw Elizabeth every night as she rode her bike and visited with people on his street? If she visited with people on his street, wouldn't she also visit with people on each street between home and a mile away ... why only on his street?

My opinion only, but, as the mom of a 9-year old, I think I'd believe Mr. C. He has no motivation to lie. Elizabeth did have motivation to lie to her parents (she wasn't allowed to ride that far). Supposedly, Elizabeth had friends that lived right by Mr. C. That is who she was visiting. They weren't neighbors of Heather/Drew. They were neighbors of Mr. C (Lived by the Lake). She wouldn't visit random strangers along the way -- just her friends (and their neighbor who was always watering his lawn, Mr. C.). We KNOW that Elizabeth DID ride to the lake to visit friends (per Tammy) and that her parents did not know about it. So we KNOW Elizabeth chose not to tell Drew & Heather. Therefore, I see no reason to accuse Mr. C. of lying or being mistaken. We know she was there!

 

[otto]

How about this for a scenario ... girls are riding bikes on Brovan and someone gives them a reason to race to the SE tip of Meyers Lake. We know that the 12:15 time on Brovan is verified. They leave Brovan at 12:15, perhaps they ask directions to the lake at the grocery store. The perp then goes to Maiden Lane to wait for them at the blind curve where the cyclist saw two bikes on the trail at 12:27, close to where the two fences start. The perp and the girls are in the treed area near Maiden Lane when the cyclist swerves. The perp takes the girls to a vehicle, then runs the bikes to the gate, tosses the purse over the fence, returns to the vehicle ... and heads North to 7 Bridges Park.

 

[otto]

My opinion only, but, as the mom of a 9-year old, I think I'd believe Mr. C. He has no motivation to lie. Elizabeth did have motivation to lie to her parents (she wasn't allowed to ride that far). Supposedly, Elizabeth had friends that lived right by Mr. C. That is who she was visiting. They weren't neighbors of Heather/Drew. They were neighbors of Mr. C (Lived by the Lake). She wouldn't visit random strangers along the way -- just her friends (and their neighbor who was always watering his lawn, Mr. C.). We KNOW that Elizabeth DID ride to the lake to visit friends (per Tammy) and that her parents did not know about it. So we KNOW Elizabeth chose not to tell Drew & Heather. Therefore, I see no reason to accuse Mr. C. of lying or being mistaken. We know she was there!

He was confused about whether he saw two girls at 1:00, 3:00, or 12:30. His wife, who wasn't home, helped him narrow down the time to when she was away. It rained that morning, but he was watering his lawn. He and his wife claim that 2-3 girls rode bikes on their street every night, and that they stopped to visit with people that lived on the street.

I have never heard that Elizabeth rode her bike to visit friends that lived on Lake Avenue.

"Between 12 and 3 p.m.: Evansdale residents see the girls in the 1000 block of Lake Avenue, riding their bikes."

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20121214/NEWS/312130109/0/sports08/?odyssey=nav|head

 

[JaimeInLA]

He was confused about whether he saw two girls at 1:00, 3:00, or 12:30. His wife, who wasn't home, helped him narrow down the time to when she was away. It rained that morning, but he was watering his lawn. He and his wife claim that 2-3 girls rode bikes on their street every night, and that they stopped to visit with people that lived on the street. I have never heard that Elizabeth rode her bike to visit friends that lived on Lake Avenue.

Respectfully, he wasn't confused between 3 times. He just knew he saw them while he was watering his lawn, which was between 12:30 - 3:00, but if he had to narrow that down, probably between 12:30-1:30. His wife butted in during the interview to say it had to be between 12:30-1:30.

It rained VERY LIGHTLY that morning. We had verified locals say they don't even recall any rain, and in the video of the girls on bikes, you can clearly see that the parking lot is dry (no puddles or wet pavement). Considering there was a summer-long drought, it makes sense that Mr. C. would still water his lawn.

Aunt Tammy said that Elizabeth rode to visit friends who "live near the lake" -- which means they also live near Mr. C., since he lives near the lake.

 

[JaimeInLA]

How about this for a scenario ... girls are riding bikes on Brovan and someone gives them a reason to race to the SE tip of Meyers Lake. We know that the 12:15 time on Brovan is verified. They leave Brovan at 12:15, perhaps they ask directions to the lake at the grocery store. The perp then goes to Maiden Lane to wait for them at the blind curve where the cyclist saw two bikes on the trail at 12:27, close to where the two fences start. The perp and the girls are in the treed area near Maiden Lane when the cyclist swerves. The perp takes the girls to a vehicle, then runs the bikes to the gate, tosses the purse over the fence, returns to the vehicle ... and heads North to 7 Bridges Park.

I think this is exactly what happened. What throws me off though, is that the owner of Cornbelt Auctions says the time stamp on his security camera is off, and that the 12:15 time stamp really means 12:22. Which doesn't leave enough time. I can only make it work if I remove TG's sighting of the bikes.

 

[threecrazykids]

This case really bothers me. We don't even know where the girls were abducted. I would prefer to believe that they were abducted near the drainage pipe gate, but when I look at that scenario I can't make it work. Without knowing the personalities of the children, it's difficult for me to understand whether they could have taken off for the lake at the same time that they were expected to go home; whether they would have dawdled near the water knowing that they would be late.

One theory is that they were intercepted on the trail and the purse was tossed over the fence to mislead investigators; to make it appear that the girls went through the gate to the water. Perhaps they were forced to walk the 400 feet East to the end of the fence. If it was the perps intention to intecept the girls at the location between the two fences, why wait until the girls reached the drainage gate, why not grab them closer to the end of the fence? Did the cyclist say that there was blind curve right where the he swerved around the bikes?

What I wonder is ... if it's easily believable that the perp staged the purse, why is it difficult to believe that he also staged the bikes?

"There’s a chain link fence on both sides of the trail. The purse was on the lake-side of the fence, about 10 feet to the east of the bikes and about 2 feet from the fence, officials said."

http://globegazette.com/news/iowa/e...cle_7dbadcc0-cfd1-11e1-b097-001a4bcf887a.html

So when the police arrived (not necessarily Abben), were the bikes against the fence? I know Abben said when HE arrived they were leaning up against the fence...I still don't think I've ever heard how the bikes were positioned when they were found. I looked for a link but can't find one regarding the location of the bikes upon discovery.:waitasec:

If they are describing the purse and it's location in reference to the bikes leaning against the fence then that may not give us a true estimate of where the bikes were dropped IF the girls were abducted mid trail...KWIM?

In MOO I think someone moved those bikes against the fence. I would hope to shout police didn't move them there if they were who found them. I am not sure we've ever been privy to know WHO exactly found the bikes. Family? Police? Random people helping look around the lake?
Along with that, we don't know if someone came forward and said that the bikes were laying across the trail and they moved them against the fence whole they were walking, jogging, biking, etc.

Maybe I missed the link but WHO found the bikes against the fence? LE??:waitasec:

 

[otto]

Respectfully, he wasn't confused between 3 times. He just knew he saw them while he was watering his lawn, which was between 12:30 - 3:00, but if he had to narrow that down, probably between 12:30-1:30. His wife butted in during the interview to say it had to be between 12:30-1:30.

It rained VERY LIGHTLY that morning. We had verified locals say they don't even recall any rain, and in the video of the girls on bikes, you can clearly see that the parking lot is dry (no puddles or wet pavement). Considering there was a summer-long drought, it makes sense that Mr. C. would still water his lawn.

Aunt Tammy said that Elizabeth rode to visit friends who "live near the lake" -- which means they also live near Mr. C., since he lives near the lake.

It's a big lake, so I'm not convinced that riding to visit friends near the lake means Lake Avenue. It could means on any number of roads.

Verfied locals have said that it rained, but apparently it was scattered showers so not everyone had rain.

I agree that the lawn watering man probably saw two girls on bikes between 12:00 and 3:00, as he originally stated (without help from his wife, who was not home).

 

[otto]

I think this is exactly what happened. What throws me off though, is that the owner of Cornbelt Auctions says the time stamp on his security camera is off, and that the 12:15 time stamp really means 12:22. Which doesn't leave enough time. I can only make it work if I remove TG's sighting of the bikes.

Police have said that the girls were last seen on Brovan at 12:15, and that they have information they may have been on Brovan at 12:23 and at Gilbert/Elmer/Arbutus between 12:30 and 1:00. It's all rather confusing, but the cyclist's report of swerving around two bikes is so detailed that I find it hard to completely discredit.

 

[hollyblue]

So when the police arrived (not necessarily Abben), were the bikes against the fence? I know Abben said when HE arrived they were leaning up against the fence...I still don't think I've ever heard how the bikes were positioned when they were found. I looked for a link but can't find one regarding the location of the bikes upon discovery.:waitasec:

If they are describing the purse and it's location in reference to the bikes leaning against the fence then that may not give us a true estimate of where the bikes were dropped IF the girls were abducted mid trail...KWIM?

In MOO I think someone moved those bikes against the fence. I would hope to shout police didn't move them there if they were who found them. I am not sure we've ever been privy to know WHO exactly found the bikes. Family? Police? Random people helping look around the lake?
Along with that, we don't know if someone came forward and said that the bikes were laying across the trail and they moved them against the fence whole they were walking, jogging, biking, etc.

Maybe I missed the link but WHO found the bikes against the fence? LE??:waitasec:

Cinderoot called MR G and he stated the bikes were laying in the path. It was a fireman that found the bikes around 4PM, but we don't know in what position. Someone else could have moved the bikes, if TG's sighting is correct, between the time of 12:30 and 4PM. That's 3 1/2 hrs! Hopefully, someone else had been walking that path between those times and can confirm seeing them too. I would think......

 

[otto]

So when the police arrived (not necessarily Abben), were the bikes against the fence? I know Abben said when HE arrived they were leaning up against the fence...I still don't think I've ever heard how the bikes were positioned when they were found. I looked for a link but can't find one regarding the location of the bikes upon discovery.:waitasec:

If they are describing the purse and it's location in reference to the bikes leaning against the fence then that may not give us a true estimate of where the bikes were dropped IF the girls were abducted mid trail...KWIM?

In MOO I think someone moved those bikes against the fence. I would hope to shout police didn't move them there if they were who found them. I am not sure we've ever been privy to know WHO exactly found the bikes. Family? Police? Random people helping look around the lake?
Along with that, we don't know if someone came forward and said that the bikes were laying across the trail and they moved them against the fence whole they were walking, jogging, biking, etc.

Maybe I missed the link but WHO found the bikes against the fence? LE??:waitasec:

No one knows how the bikes were arranged when police first arrived ... except police. Since the location was not treated as a crime scene until the next day, there's a good possibility that the bikes were on the trail and police simply picked them up and leaned them against the fence.

Per police reports, the bikes were at the gate (on the trail or leaning against the fence), and the purse was 10 feet east of the bikes, 2 feet towards the lake from the fence.

Police found the bikes at 3:40 (the first time given at the beginning of the investigation) and gave an official time of 3:58.

 

[threecrazykids]

Georger, I don't know why I'm laughing but I am. Maybe it's because to get to my house from the nearest tiny town involves a lot more gravel than that and to get to my house from the next nearest small town also involves a lot more gravel than that. That's just what it is like to live out in the country.

The video is deceptive in that last summer, the whole area would have been green on green on green with lush growth. That little gravel road into the park would have seemed like a tunnel arched over with tree limbs. I think to someone not familiar with the upper Mississippi basin, the landscape in that video probably looks desolate but to me, it looks peaceful and calm. All summer, everything grows so fast and the land is so active and then in late fall, the land sort of takes a deep breath and goes to sleep for a few months.

I didn't go back to look on the video but I seem to recall that it looked like the field they were walking next to had been in corn last year (lots of debris on the ground to cut down on wind erosion). In the middle of last July, the corn would have been 5-7 feet high, which would provide plenty of cover for a vehicle driven in there.

If the video was at the correct spot (which I'm not sure of because it seemed to me like they'd gotten further from the river), Mr M was correct in pointing out that someone could have driven a vehicle down the conservation strip where the group was video'd walking. At that point, the first cutting of hay would have been down and then growth slowed radically due to heat and drought. Normally, first cut of hay can be done about the middle of June and then second cut would be sometime in the last half of July.

But last spring was warm and mild, so first cut of hay was a month early(!!!). And then the extreme heat and drought delayed hay growth to the point where some fields didn't get a second cut of hay until late August or early September (which is when third cut is usually done) and some fields never did come back well enough to be worth doing a second cut.

The ground in that conservation strip would have been quite firm and easily driven over. The corn would have hidden a vehicle, even most SUVs.

Nighttime would have actually been higher risk than during the day because vehicle lights would be easily seen and would look out of place. Even if someone turned off their headlights, their taillights would flash every time they stepped on the brake. If someone saw red taillights without corresponding headlights, they would have been more likely to go out and look because that's just a dead giveaway of someone up to no good.

I am wondering if anyone would even notice or pay attention to headlights/taillights. I live in the country off gravel and unless someone drew my attention to the vehicle by calling our house I certainly wouldn't notice a cars taillights 1/2 mile away. :dunno:

That farm house looks like it's quite a ways away from that road...and add 5-7 foot corn, summer foliage and I don't think you'd see anything that goes on at the park.

Our home's windows in our living room face out the back of our house as well as face a fairly busy highway...and honestly I've completely tuned out the headlights that turn off there onto the gravel onto our road and also the gravel road on the other side of the highway.

I know you said you live on gravel as well...do you think you would you notice a vehicle driving down a road mid day across a corn field...or even at night? I just don't think I would...:sick:

Especially when they KNOW it's a road to a park, and probably are used to seeing all sorts of vehicles out there in the summer I'm not sure anyone would pay close enough attention to remember a vehicle being out there...let alone identifying that vehicle 1/2 mile away (and through a corn field).

 

[SapphireSteel]

I think this is exactly what happened. What throws me off though, is that the owner of Cornbelt Auctions says the time stamp on his security camera is off, and that the 12:15 time stamp really means 12:22. Which doesn't leave enough time. I can only make it work if I remove TG's sighting of the bikes.

The time stamp on the camera was 12.11.

It is only Mr P who has said he believes it was slow.

:cow:

 

[threecrazykids]

Cinderoot called MR G and he stated the bikes were laying in the path. It was a fireman that found the bikes around 4PM, but we don't know in what position. Someone else could have moved the bikes, if TG's sighting is correct, between the time of 12:30 and 4PM. That's 3 1/2 hrs! Hopefully, someone else had been walking that path between those times and can confirm seeing them too. I would think......

:rocker: Thank you...that's what I thought I remembered reading...was that TG said he swerved around the bikes...but that when found they had been moved against the fence. I had forgotten that the fireman found them. Thank you again.

So yes...3 1/2 hours is a God's plenty of time for someone to not only abduct, but get away with the girls (and given the lag time between passer-by's in that back part of the lake it could be 30...50...60 mins between those people as well).

 

[Dr. Know?]

Adam Amdor ‏@AdamKWWL7
Lyric Cook's family is requesting no media be at Heartland Vineyard Church for Lyric's life celebration on Saturday. #EvansdaleSearch

https://twitter.com/AdamKWWL7

 

[otto]

I am wondering if anyone would even notice or pay attention to headlights/taillights. I live in the country off gravel and unless someone drew my attention to the vehicle by calling our house I certainly wouldn't notice a cars taillights 1/2 mile away. :dunno:

That farm house looks like it's quite a ways away from that road...and add 5-7 foot corn, summer foliage and I don't think you'd see anything that goes on at the park.

Our home's windows in our living room face out the back of our house as well as face a fairly busy highway...and honestly I've completely tuned out the headlights that turn off there onto the gravel onto our road and also the gravel road on the other side of the highway.

I know you said you live on gravel as well...do you think you would you notice a vehicle driving down a road mid day across a corn field...or even at night? I just don't think I would...:sick:

Especially when they KNOW it's a road to a park, and probably are used to seeing all sorts of vehicles out there in the summer I'm not sure anyone would pay close enough attention to remember a vehicle being out there...let alone identifying that vehicle 1/2 mile away (and through a corn field).

It seems to me that the man in the video believed that the children were found at the bend in the river near the corn field, so quite a bit to the West of where it appeared to be from studying the photos of the area. It seemed that the area where he took the ireporters was too far from the river.

I think that the X on the left is where the man took the ireporters, and the X on the right is where several people have matched the terrain based on the photos.

 

[SapphireSteel]

BBM

Yes, it isn't very common to hear someone say "I knew it all along!" after someone is arrested for murder.

I feel that whoever did this wears a mask that completely hides his true self, even from those closest to them. JMO

Watch this space.

I'm not allowed to say it but....I knew it all along.

:maddening:

 

[hollyblue]

How about this for a scenario ... girls are riding bikes on Brovan and someone gives them a reason to race to the SE tip of Meyers Lake. We know that the 12:15 time on Brovan is verified. They leave Brovan at 12:15, perhaps they ask directions to the lake at the grocery store. The perp then goes to Maiden Lane to wait for them at the blind curve where the cyclist saw two bikes on the trail at 12:27, close to where the two fences start. The perp and the girls are in the treed area near Maiden Lane when the cyclist swerves. The perp takes the girls to a vehicle, then runs the bikes to the gate, tosses the purse over the fence, returns to the vehicle ... and heads North to 7 Bridges Park.

Possible. This is somewhat my theory, but what we do not know is if the gate at the pump sight was locked or open at the time. I had always thought the bikes were seen by TG and found by the gate seen in the pics with LE and not further east where the gate ends by Maiden Lane. Maybe I was thinking incorrectly all along. :waitasec: