IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #27

[georger]

I'm starting to think the reason LE is releasing nothing to the public is because they have their suspect in sight, and waiting for further evidence. I watched a show last night where a 12 yr. old girl went missing in Missouri a few years back. She simply vanished while walking home from a friends house. Small town like Evansdale. Noone saw anything, they said it was like she vanished in thin air. "Sound familiar"? LE had a few suspects, a RSO in the area, a kinky wierdo down the street. But, nobody added up. Finally they went back to their first suspect, the girl that went missings friends stepfather. He was absent the day she went missing, they interviewed him and he said he went fishing that day. Meanwhile, someone discovered the girls body in the woods. Forensics found some evidence on her clothing that 6 months later caused the arrest of the first suspect. The murdered girls friends stepdad. The one that said he was out fishing the day the girl went missing.

The 12 yr. old was visiting her friend, and while walking home accepted a ride with her friends stepdad, he tryed to rape her and ended up killing her and dumping her body in the woods. The reason it seemed she vanished into thin air is because she knew her abducter, trusted him and went quietly with him.

In that case: somebody wasn't where they said they were.

Somebody with no proof of where they said they were.

Anyone like that in this case?

 

[threecrazykids]

In that case: somebody wasn't where they said they were.

Somebody with no proof of where they said they were.

Anyone like that in this case?

I don't know what LE considers PROOF in reference to an alibi.

Does anyone know how one goes about prooving where they say they were if they are alone? Even when it comes to cell phone towers, won't LE probably just going to go off pings?? Which, in an area like Evansdale/Waterloo, they could easily be pinging off one tower and be in the other town because they are so close.

Does anyone know what LE considers proof of an alibi? Does it only stand as proof if someone else can confirm your story? I have no idea...

 

[SapphireSteel]

There are alibis and alibis.

A rock solid alibi would be Beyonce singing live in front of the nation at the President's Inauguration.

A garden variety type alibi would be, "I went x, y and z saw me there".

Now whether y and z can be believed is another question. Often a criminal's associates are criminals too, and quite happy to lie for their friends if there's something in it for them.

I suspect we have an abundance of the latter type of alibi here...LE have said "no one is cleared", which implies no one has rock solid alibis.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Just wishing to point out that Lyric had contact with Dan, as a week before she got scolded by him for not doing her chores which (to me) implies she was actually living with him, or he with her.

At the very least it implies he was still in close contact with Lyric and still very much in a parental role.

 

[threecrazykids]

Just wishing to point out that Lyric had contact with Dan, as a week before she got scolded by him for not doing her chores which (to me) implies she was actually living with him, or he with her.

At the very least it implies he was still in close contact with Lyric and still very much in a parental role.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1207/18/ijvm.01.html

But in the above transcript Tammy states:

So was she allowed to go and hang out with him? And no. Grandma has temporary custody of Dillon and Lyric. And so Lyric was living with Grandma, you know. We wouldn`t allow Lyric to be around that situation.

So maybe she had phone contact with him, but according to Tammy she lived with Grandma.

However, we also know that in the same sense Dillin was also under the custody of Grandma yet he was with Dan at Dan's mother's house napping the day they went missing.

From reading this statement I can only concur they allowed Dillin to "hang" with Dan, but not Lyric. Whether or not this is 100% fool proof I can't say...but this is what Tammy stated when asked.

 

[GrainneDhu]

I don't know what LE considers PROOF in reference to an alibi.

Does anyone know how one goes about prooving where they say they were if they are alone? Even when it comes to cell phone towers, won't LE probably just going to go off pings?? Which, in an area like Evansdale/Waterloo, they could easily be pinging off one tower and be in the other town because they are so close.

Does anyone know what LE considers proof of an alibi? Does it only stand as proof if someone else can confirm your story? I have no idea...

BBM

Actually, cell phone pings in a metropolitan area are often better for placing the location of a given phone because there's usually multiple towers receiving pings from the same phone at the same time. That allows LE to use all the various pings to locate a cell phone very precisely; sometimes within an area of a few square feet. Metropolitan areas need more towers because of the higher demand, not because one tower doesn't cover enough area.

In areas where there is only one cell tower, the best location LE may be able to come up with might be within a circle a half mile or more in diameter.

 

[threecrazykids]

BBM

Actually, cell phone pings in a metropolitan area are often better for placing the location of a given phone because there's usually multiple towers receiving pings from the same phone at the same time. That allows LE to use all the various pings to locate a cell phone very precisely; sometimes within an area of a few square feet. Metropolitan areas need more towers because of the higher demand, not because one tower doesn't cover enough area.

In areas where there is only one cell tower, the best location LE may be able to come up with might be within a circle a half mile or more in diameter.

Great info! My point was just that I have no idea where all the towers are in Evansdale nor Waterloo. Theoretically speaking, one could (depending on how many towers your phone would ping off) be standing in Evansdale and still get a ping off a Waterloo tower.

 

[SapphireSteel]

This is where those cheap throwaway phones come in handy.

They're virtually untraceable.

 

[threecrazykids]

According to this website for FCC towers Evansdale doesn't even have any towers.

http://find.mapmuse.com/map/cell-towers/42.0808,-93.5961,7

There are 2 in Waterloo that are even close are over on Edgemont Avenue, and the other at the corner of 17th and Commercial.

Neither of which are IN Evansdale so a pinging tower would do no good. Not one that could be used in court anyway since I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that only FCC regulated towers would be submittable in court.

I'm sure there are different websites that show different towers...I just pulled up the first link that came up.

 

[SapphireSteel]

I am fairly sure that whoever took the girls either had no mobile, had a throwaway, or had it switched off.

 

[Dr. Know?]

Dan Cox, Principal ‏@HooverWaterloo
Honoring the memory of Lyric, Elizabeth, and Sandy Hook with an Acts of Kindness assembly pic.twitter.com/wHceNr5X

This is the principal in Waterloo, so hope this post is allowed even though it's not MSM.

https://twitter.com/HooverWaterloo

 

[threecrazykids]

I am fairly sure that whoever took the girls either had no mobile, had a throwaway, or had it switched off.

And if this does indeed turn out to be planned, I'm sure the person has knowledge that cell phones are like a blinking red sign over your head saying "HERE I AM!!!" and SHOULD have been smart enough to know to shut it off. I guess only time will tell on that one.

 

[otto]

It is obvious to me that the investigation was VERY sloppy that first day. They were clearly working under the assumption that the girls had wandered off or drowned in the lake. LE allowed the family to park their cars on the grassy area next to Maiden Lane (destroying any potential tire track evidence). The volunteer firefighters obviously picked up the bikes when they found them, and leaned them on the fence (they were down when TG saw them and up when Abben got there), tampering with the scene and potentially destroying fingerprint and/or touch DNA evidence. They allowed the family and volunteer searchers to wander all over the crime scene. They didn't do a thorough pick-up of the Maiden Lane area (Ollipop found lots of trash there a few days later). They let Aunt Tammy supervise the scent dogs.

I don't know if Dan took his quad down Maiden Lane -- but it wouldn't surprise me.

It is not obvious that anyone moved the children's bikes. When Abben arrived at the scene, the bikes were leaning against the fence. We know that a trained search and rescue person found the bikes at the drainage gate. Would a trained search and rescue person, searching for two missing children, tamper with evidence? That seems to go against all search and rescue training.

We have read in the media that a cyclist was riding along the Evansdale Nature trail at about 12:20 on the afternoon of July 20. We know that he told his daughter that he saw two bikes on the trail, claiming that he "swerved" around them. After this, apparently his daughter posted this information on a social media page, and then police were notified of the cyclist's claim. Police have denied any knowledge of the cyclist's claim. Police have released a statement that the bikes were seen by a jogger at the gate after 2:00 PM. Police have released an official statement regarding the earliest sighting of the bikes at the drainage gate at 2 PM.

I'm confused about why the FBI statement is ignored, and the statement from a cyclist that was only published in the media is considered fact.

What information is there that the family drove their vehicles along the trail to the drainage gate? What information is there that one of the extended family handled trained FBI dogs? What information is there that trash found at Maiden Lane a few weeks after the girls vanished was there when the girls vanished?

 

[threecrazykids]

It is not obvious that anyone moved the children's bikes. When Abben arrived at the scene, the bikes were leaning against the fence. We know that a trained search and rescue person found the bikes at the drainage gate. Would a trained search and rescue person, searching for two missing children, tamper with evidence? That seems to go against all search and rescue training.

We have read in the media that a cyclist was riding along the Evansdale Nature trail at about 12:20 on the afternoon of July 20. We know that he told his daughter that he saw two bikes on the trail, claiming that he "swerved" around them. After this, apparently his daughter posted this information on a social media page, and then police were notified of the cyclist's claim. Police have denied any knowledge of the cyclist's claim. Police have released a statement that the bikes were seen by a jogger at the gate after 2:00 PM. Police have released an official statement regarding the earliest sighting of the bikes at the drainage gate at 2 PM.

I'm confused about why the FBI statement is ignored, and the statement from a cyclist that was only published in the media is considered fact.

What information is there that the family drove their vehicles along the trail to the drainage gate? What information is there that one of the extended family handled trained FBI dogs? What information is there that trash found at Maiden Lane a few weeks after the girls vanished was there when the girls vanished?

Well...SOMEONE had to have moved the bikes to the fence. I don't think it was LE or the firefighter who moved them though. The cyclist swerved to miss them as they were laying on the trail and the jogger saw them at the gate at 2:00. Even at that point, do we know they were up or down? Either way...between the cyclist swerving and them being against the fence, someone had to move them. But I agree...I am not of belief that LE or a search and rescue person did it. My guess is someone who came along the trail moved them not knowing that they would later be 2 bikes of girls who were abducted.

 

[JaimeInLA]

It is not obvious that anyone moved the children's bikes. When Abben arrived at the scene, the bikes were leaning against the fence. We know that a trained search and rescue person found the bikes at the drainage gate. Would a trained search and rescue person, searching for two missing children, tamper with evidence? That seems to go against all search and rescue training.

We have read in the media that a cyclist was riding along the Evansdale Nature trail at about 12:20 on the afternoon of July 20. We know that he told his daughter that he saw two bikes on the trail, claiming that he "swerved" around them. After this, apparently his daughter posted this information on a social media page, and then police were notified of the cyclist's claim. Police have denied any knowledge of the cyclist's claim. Police have released a statement that the bikes were seen by a jogger at the gate after 2:00 PM. Police have released an official statement regarding the earliest sighting of the bikes at the drainage gate at 2 PM.

I'm confused about why the FBI statement is ignored, and the statement from a cyclist that was only published in the media is considered fact.

What information is there that the family drove their vehicles along the trail to the drainage gate? What information is there that one of the extended family handled trained FBI dogs? What information is there that trash found at Maiden Lane a few weeks after the girls vanished was there when the girls vanished?

These were NOT trained search and rescue people. I don't know why you keep saying that. This was Evansdale, IA -- the smallest of small towns. They were firefighters. And not even real firefighters! VOLUNTEER firefighters. I doubt they had any training in search and rescue operations AT ALL.

Had the police suspected this was an abduction from the get-go, they would have used POLICE searchers. But they obviously assumed they were searching for 2 girls who got lost, ran away or fell in the lake -- and that is why they sent volunteer fire fighters.

SOMEONE picked up the bikes. It isn't a stretch at all to assume it was the volunteer firefighters, since we know they were there.

 

[otto]

Well...SOMEONE had to have moved the bikes to the fence. I don't think it was LE or the firefighter who moved them though. The cyclist swerved to miss them as they were laying on the trail and the jogger saw them at the gate at 2:00. Even at that point, do we know they were up or down? Either way...between the cyclist swerving and them being against the fence, someone had to move them. But I agree...I am not of belief that LE or a search and rescue person did it. My guess is someone who came along the trail moved them not knowing that they would later be 2 bikes of girls who were abducted.

The children may have leaned their bikes against the fence at the drainage gate. It is not true that "someone had to have moved the bikes".

The cyclist claims that he swerved around two bikes on a 10 foot wide trail at the same time that police have said the children were cycling near Cornbelt Auction. The jogger saw the children's bikes at the drainage gate at 2 PM. This is based on information released by investigators.

There is no reason to assume that any innocent bystander moved the children's bikes. The cyclist claims that the bikes he saw were an inconvenience, yet he left those bikes exactly where they were. Any other cyclist would probably do the same thing. Why would anyone walking on the trail move the bikes? If they're lying on a 10 foot wide trail, they're not blocking the path of a pedestrian.

A full size male adult bike has a total length of approximately five feet. If the female adult bike that Lyric used was perpendicular to the fence, there would still be another 5-6 feet free. I really doubt that anyone would tamper with the bikes because they wouldn't exactly be blocking the path.

 

[threecrazykids]

Well...SOMEONE had to have moved the bikes to the fence. I don't think it was LE or the firefighter who moved them though. The cyclist swerved to miss them as they were laying on the trail and the jogger saw them at the gate at 2:00. Even at that point, do we know they were up or down? Either way...between the cyclist swerving and them being against the fence, someone had to move them. But I agree...I am not of belief that LE or a search and rescue person did it. My guess is someone who came along the trail moved them not knowing that they would later be 2 bikes of girls who were abducted.

I guess I should quote myself in this just to ask...

Otto-

Are you saying you don't think the bikes were EVER laid down? That they were at the gate leaned up the whole time? I guess I could chew on that...considering LE isn't using the cyclist's sighting of the bikes.

Maybe LE didn't need to move them because they weren't EVER laying down? Maybe the girls DID lean them against the fence and the bikes that the cyclist saw weren't even the girls bikes at all and weren't there when LE showed up later. Maybe the girls bikes were actually up against the fence the whole time! That could mean that either the girls WERE off their bikes playing on the rock jetty so the perp didn't have to touch the bikes OR that he stopped them as they came along the trail and told them to lean their bikes against the fence and come with him/her etc.

Hmmm...I never thought about that.:waitasec:

 

[JaimeInLA]

It is not obvious that anyone moved the children's bikes. When Abben arrived at the scene, the bikes were leaning against the fence. We know that a trained search and rescue person found the bikes at the drainage gate. Would a trained search and rescue person, searching for two missing children, tamper with evidence? That seems to go against all search and rescue training.

We have read in the media that a cyclist was riding along the Evansdale Nature trail at about 12:20 on the afternoon of July 20. We know that he told his daughter that he saw two bikes on the trail, claiming that he "swerved" around them. After this, apparently his daughter posted this information on a social media page, and then police were notified of the cyclist's claim. Police have denied any knowledge of the cyclist's claim. Police have released a statement that the bikes were seen by a jogger at the gate after 2:00 PM. Police have released an official statement regarding the earliest sighting of the bikes at the drainage gate at 2 PM.

I'm confused about why the FBI statement is ignored, and the statement from a cyclist that was only published in the media is considered fact.

What information is there that the family drove their vehicles along the trail to the drainage gate? What information is there that one of the extended family handled trained FBI dogs? What information is there that trash found at Maiden Lane a few weeks after the girls vanished was there when the girls vanished?

These were NOT trained search and rescue people. I don't know why you keep saying that. This was Evansdale, IA -- the smallest of small towns. They don't have search and rescue personnel! They were firefighters. And not even real firefighters! VOLUNTEER firefighters. I doubt they had any training in search and rescue operations AT ALL.

Had the police suspected this was an abduction from the get-go, they would have used POLICE searchers. But they obviously assumed they were searching for 2 girls who got lost, ran away or fell in the lake -- and that is why they sent volunteer fire fighters.

SOMEONE picked up the bikes. It isn't a stretch at all to assume it was the volunteer firefighters, since we know they were there.

Also, I never said Tammy "handled" the FBI dogs or that the family drove along the trail. I said Tammy supervised the FBI dogs -- as in witnessed them -- because we know that from her statement. And we know the family parked on the grass next to the Maiden Lane woods because they said they did on Nancy Grace.

Ollipop, our verified local, said that the trash was obviously old, worn, faded, and had grass growing through/over it. He even posted photos of it, long ago.

 

[GrainneDhu]

According to this website for FCC towers Evansdale doesn't even have any towers.

http://find.mapmuse.com/map/cell-towers/42.0808,-93.5961,7

There are 2 in Waterloo that are even close are over on Edgemont Avenue, and the other at the corner of 17th and Commercial.

Neither of which are IN Evansdale so a pinging tower would do no good. Not one that could be used in court anyway since I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that only FCC regulated towers would be submittable in court.

I'm sure there are different websites that show different towers...I just pulled up the first link that came up.

Cell phones ping off all towers that are within 25-30 miles.

When I looked at the map here:

http://www.cellreception.com/towers/towers.php?city=waterloo&state_abr=ia

it looks to me like there are more than enough towers within 25 miles of Evansdale that a cell phone could be located to within 10-15 feet of its physical location.

Can you refer me to a link that says that only ping information from cell towers located within the same municipal boundaries as a targeted cell phone can be used in court?

 

[GrainneDhu]

These were NOT trained search and rescue people. I don't know why you keep saying that. This was Evansdale, IA -- the smallest of small towns. They don't have search and rescue personnel! They were firefighters. And not even real firefighters! VOLUNTEER firefighters. I doubt they had any training in search and rescue operations AT ALL.

Had the police suspected this was an abduction from the get-go, they would have used POLICE searchers. But they obviously assumed they were searching for 2 girls who got lost, ran away or fell in the lake -- and that is why they sent volunteer fire fighters.

SOMEONE picked up the bikes. It isn't a stretch at all to assume it was the volunteer firefighters, since we know they were there.

Also, I never said Tammy "handled" the FBI dogs or that the family drove along the trail. I said Tammy supervised the FBI dogs -- as in witnessed them -- because we know that from her statement. And we know the family parked on the grass next to the Maiden Lane woods because they said they did on Nancy Grace.

Ollipop, our verified local, said that the trash was obviously old, worn, faded, and had grass growing through/over it. He even posted photos of it, long ago.

BBM

I know nothing of the training that the volunteer firefighters in Evansdale go through.

I do know that the volunteer fire department in my tiny town (about 800 people) is extensive. They go through ongoing training and many of the volunteer firefighters are also trained EMTs (they saved my life).

Those people make an extensive commitment to be firefighters. They have to commit to 20 hours of ongoing training per month, in addition to any call-outs there might be.

They are very, very real firefighters.

I suspect the same is probably true of Evansdale.