IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #28

[tlcya]

At some point, it is clear, the girls became separated from their bikes. I consider it is still open to theories as to when exactly that happened. Where the bikes were found, or prior.

 

[threecrazykids]

I just don't think they walked over to the parking lot, not when they have bikes available. jmo

I agree...unless they had a flat tire or a chain was taken off. I'm just thinking of reasons they may have walked to the front of the park.

Chances are they had their bikes with them until they were abducted. I'm simply exploring ideas or scenarios where they could have been seen at the entrance of the park area that people would NOT have recognized them or called anything in because they didn't see 2 little girls ON BIKES.

All LE said was that they were seen in the area between 12:30 and 1. Who knows...maybe LE isn't using the sighting by Mr. C at all...but maybe they are. We don't know.

 

[threecrazykids]

I hate to say it, staunch supporter of LE that I am, but I am beginning to wonder if LE in this instance knows its arse from a hole in the ground.

Their timeline is sketchy at best. So yeah, I am open to the timeline they present not being accurate.

I never thought I would say it, but there it is.

Don't be afraid to say it...I've been questioning how this case has been handled for quite awhile. Not everyone in every case has their pom pons out cheering in the corner of police. I've had my moments of hope, but then something like the email from TT comes out that makes that hope go right down the drain.

That email gave me no more comfort than any of the pressers that an arrest is eminent.

And for all the supporters and cheerleaders for LE: I hope I have a nice dinner of crow tomorrow and the person/people who did this is arrested.

 

[RNER]

I'm just going to take TG's statement and timeline completely out of the picture just like Abben did. I don't think he saw the bikes, I don't think he rode his bike that day. I think Abben and others denied his statement because his statement is simply not true. Now I really hope I don't end up on the naughty chair again, I'm just agreeing with Abben.

I have never seen him quoted as seeing "the girl's" bikes, only "the bikes" (which, I believe were in a different location from where the girl's bikes were later found). Therefore, I have no reason to doubt that he saw "bikes". I agree that his statement can be ignored (especially if he didn't see "the girl's bikes") to make the other sightings and timeline fit. However, since we don't know who "the bikes" belonged to at this point, it is hard to determine their relevance with the investigation. Maybe they belonged to some kids innocently fishing or playing, or maybe they belonged to someone involved in the disappearance. Either way, I don't think LE or TG will give out the info.

 

[ashleyd8402]

I'm about to go off on a tangent here, so my apologies.

If dogs followed their scents to the edge of the water, the girls were at the lake. It's that simple. Dogs aren't mistaken.

I know no one here really knows how often the girls visited the lake. The lawn-watering guy said he saw them often. Banking on that, could the dogs have picked up on their scents from a previous day?

I realize that this might sound like as great of a stretch as the possibility that TG saw two other bikes abandoned before the girl's bikes were. It's just the only way I can possibly explain the dogs finding their scents without actually placing them at the lake that day. I have trouble understanding those who don't believe that the girls ever made it to the lake that day. I'm very skeptical that the bikes were merely dumped when there was clearly a scent trail with them.

 

[ashleyd8402]

I'm just going to take TG's statement and timeline completely out of the picture just like Abben did. I don't think he saw the bikes, I don't think he rode his bike that day. I think Abben and others denied his statement because his statement is simply not true. Now I really hope I don't end up on the naughty chair again, I'm just agreeing with Abben.

:clap:

 

[Mjskit]

The girls were cycling on Brovan at 12:23. How did the girls get to Gilbert at 12:30 without their bikes and how did their bikes get to the SE tip of the lake?

What is the reason for trying to separate the girls from their bikes ... to include the cyclist's story?

The cyclist claims he saw the bikes at the SE tip of the lake at 12:20. That's when the girls and their bikes were still on Brovan.

I merely stated a fact. LE did not say the girls and the bikes were seen at 12:30 - 1:00. You get upset when people add their ideas to make facts fit a scenario and you are doing it too. I can not explain how or why as I am not the perp. Maybe that is one thing LE is leaving out because only the perp would know?

 

[threecrazykids]

When I read this comment by Abben I'm adding another :waitasec: into the timeline.


“Both girls were last seen on July 13 at 12:15 p.m. riding their bicycles away from the Collins residence in Evansdale. We have information that the girls were seen approximately 12:23 p.m. on Brovan Blvd. and between 12:30 and 1:00 p.m. on Gilbert DR. in the area of Meyers Lake in Evansdale.”

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlin...-missing-2-months-authorities-plead-for-help/

We know that Wylma has stated that the last time she saw the girls was 12:15.

That covers the 12:15 "last seen riding their bikes away from the Collins residence".

"We have information that the girls were seen approximately 12:23 on Brovan." This to me could easily be a corrected time of the video AFTER they had a chance to account for any errors in the time stamp.

 

[RNER]

I'm about to go off on a tangent here, so my apologies.

If dogs followed their scents to the edge of the water, the girls were at the lake. It's that simple. Dogs aren't mistaken.

I know no one here really knows how often the girls visited the lake. The lawn-watering guy said he saw them often. Banking on that, could the dogs have picked up on their scents from a previous day?

I realize that this might sound like as great of a stretch as the possibility that TG saw two other bikes abandoned before the girl's bikes were. It's just the only way I can possibly explain the dogs finding their scents without actually placing them at the lake that day. I have trouble understanding those who don't believe that the girls ever made it to the lake that day. I'm very skeptical that the bikes were merely dumped when there was clearly a scent trail with them.

I have not been able to find ANY statement that indicates that he saw anything other than "the bikes", so I guess I would consider it "a stretch" to believe otherwise. Coincidence, maybe!

Maybe you or others can search through the 28 forums, as well as the statements by TG to the media and in his response to questions on this forum and find where he stated he found "the girl's bikes" or even described them in enough detail for a positive ID. I personally HAVE NOT seen it! I would surely welcome a "girl's bikes" statement from TG if it exists, because I am stumped as to why Abben would disregard it!

 

[palaminodee]

OT: human trafficking fyi...
http://www.wdam.com/story/21321479/jackson-described-as-human-trafficking-corridor

 

[otto]

I merely stated a fact. LE did not say the girls and the bikes were seen at 12:30 - 1:00. You get upset when people add their ideas to make facts fit a scenario and you are doing it too. I can not explain how or why as I am not the perp. Maybe that is one thing LE is leaving out because only the perp would know?

"Autopsies by the state medical examiner's office are under way, but the remains are believed to be those of Lyric Cook and Elizabeth Collins, who were ten and eight when they vanished July 13 while riding their bicycles, Black Hawk County sheriff's Capt Rick Abben said."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ng-Iowa-cousins-discovered.html#ixzz2Ly1BLgXG

 

[threecrazykids]

"Autopsies by the state medical examiner's office are under way, but the remains are believed to be those of Lyric Cook and Elizabeth Collins, who were ten and eight when they vanished July 13 while riding their bicycles, Black Hawk County sheriff's Capt Rick Abben said."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ng-Iowa-cousins-discovered.html#ixzz2Ly1BLgXG

Just curious, are you of the belief the girls were literally ripped off their bikes and abducted?

That they literally were abducted WHILE riding their bikes? Their feet never touched the ground between the video and the bikes being found at the lake?

That is how I read what you're inferring.

 

[otto]

Just curious, are you of the belief the girls were literally ripped off their bikes and abducted?

That they literally were abducted WHILE riding their bikes? Their feet never touched the ground between the video and the bikes being found at the lake?

That is how I read what you're inferring.

I am of the opinion that they vanished while riding their bikes, not that they left their bikes somewhere, walked along Elmer/Gilbert/Arbutus and then vanished.

 

[roseofsharon]

"How Long Will the Scent Trail Remain"?

http://www.jimmyryce.org/ScentCollection.html

Could the dogs have picked up the girls' scents from them possibly being at Meyers Lake days before?

 

[threecrazykids]

I am of the opinion that they vanished while riding their bikes, not that they left their bikes somewhere, walked along Elmer/Gilbert/Arbutus and then vanished.

Ok...I was just curious.:seeya:

I don't necessarily disagree with you. I'm simply throwing out as many different ideas I can given the tidbits LE has tossed our way.

We can either be extremely technical in tearing apart every word they say to it's literal meaning, or we can be extremely presumptuous in what we think they mean (given the fact they are doing a presser and maybe aren't worried about the difference of whether it's reported as 12:23 or approx 12:23).

It's really just giving us something to do and talk about until LE makes an arrest. Throw some statements in, some statements out. I believe if LE came out and gave 1 concrete timeline of even the times that HAVE been shared in MSM it would be nice. Certainly not necessary, but nice. Here are all the different times I've heard in the mix from the day they went missing to today:

11:30, between 12 and 3, 12:11, 12:15, 12:19, 12:20, 12:23, approx 12:23, 12:30, between 12:30 and 1, 3:45, 3:48, 3:58, and 4 (did I miss any?)

Maybe if I knew who is telling the truth and who is not correct or is being vague intentionally in all these times I'd be as confident as you are in the timeline.

Until an arrest is made, I'm open to just about ANY time between the video and the minute the bikes were found with no girls as worth discussing. What's it gonna hurt? We don't have enough here to crack the case so we might as well chat about whatever people want. No one is being forced to correct or reply if they disagree. They can sit back quietly if they don't have anything to add to the conversation.

 

[roseofsharon]

Are there "Johnnies" at Meyers Lake throughout the park?

 

[ashleyd8402]

Are there "Johnnies" at Meyers Lake throughout the park?

Toilets? There are bathrooms at the park, up by the parking lot.

 

[Snowbunny]

Correct! Which COULD mean, that TG's sighting of the BIKES ONLY was valid...and the girls were still at the park, just NOT in view of TG.

Possibly playing over in the wooded area...OR they simply didn't catch the attention of TG...wherever they were, possibly playing at the edge of the lake, just not within the line of sight from TG! Snuck off into the woods to go potty?

THEN, maybe someone else stopped and talked to them and said "meet me in the parking lot" or something along those lines...I don't know what.

They then (for whatever stinkin' reason) WALK over to the parking lot/entrance to park area which then someone may have seen them "between 12:30 -1:00".

MAYBE one of the girls had a flat tire so they were going to walk. Or maybe someone flattened their tire while they were playing by the lake and then "offered them a ride home".

This makes sense that the girls would be playing by the lake when TG rode by, he just didn't see them...and still account for the 12:30-1:00 sighting at the entrance.

I know we agree to disagree here and I will have to disagree with your theory that the girls may have wondered off to the parking lot. If this were the case, then the tracking dogs would have tracked the girls to the parking lot. I don't know if it was ever done, but I hope LE took the tracking dogs to Elizabeth's residence and let the dogs track the girls from there also. What I really find strange is that the dogs were able track the girls to the edge of the lake and into the wooded area, but it was never stated whether or not the tracking dogs tracked the girls on any part of the bike trail and if the girls had been on the bike trail then I would have thought the dogs could have tracked which direction the girls may have taken to enter the bike trail. This is why I don't believe the girls were ever at the lake and that the bikes were staged.

 

[roseofsharon]

Toilets? There are bathrooms at the park, up by the parking lot.

Yes, toilets, thanks Ashley. I am looking at an aerial view of Evansdale and on one street near Meyers Lake (?), I can see rows of portable toilets, the type with the blue roof, so was wondering if they were placed throughout the park.

 

[roseofsharon]

I know we agree to disagree here and I will have to disagree with your theory that the girls may have wondered off to the parking lot. If this were the case, then the tracking dogs would have tracked the girls to the parking lot. I don't know if it was ever done, but I hope LE took the tracking dogs to Elizabeth's residence and let the dogs track the girls from there also. What I really find strange is that the dogs were able track the girls to the edge of the lake and into the wooded area, but it was never stated whether or not the tracking dogs tracked the girls on any part of the bike trail and if the girls had been on the bike trail then I would have thought the dogs could have tracked which direction the girls may have taken to enter the bike trail. This is why I don't believe the girls were ever at the lake and that the bikes were staged.

Yet strangely, the dogs didn't track to the Ledermans parking lot, where we know there was a confirmed sighting by the grandmother? Or maybe I missed that the dogs tracked to that parking lot?