IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #28

[cindersoot]

By Friday evening July 13th 2012, most people in and around Evansdale and beyond were aware of the missing girls. If, and I say if, TG saw the girls on their bikes on the path or anywhere he was at, you would think he would run not walk to the police station and report. Not on the following Monday, but that day, or night, or Saturday or Sunday.

 

[Marilynilpa]

It's all one sentence.

Everyone that reads this forum could have known by 9 PM on July 13 that the disappearance was suspicious and possibly an abduction, so we can use this fact to demonstrate that everyone in Evansdale probably knew it too.

Why is it important to attempt to demonstrate that the disappearance of eight and ten year old girls was perceived by police as not suspicious, not an abduction and normal? Nothing about police statements and activities supports that.

I agree with you completely. I fear that, due to a lack of additional info to discuss, some of us have become rather nit-picky in an effort to prove some point or another. JMO. I don't see how LE's initial classification of this case makes any difference - it does nothing to explain who took/killed the girls.

 

[Bootsctr]

I've never considered that one way or the other, but something must have made you think of it.

Can you share your thoughts?

I missed this from the other day Fox! Regarding what made me wonder if the perp could have had military training was from watching "Dark Minds." The episode was about "The Original Night Stalker", I thought there was only one night stalker, Richard Ramirez. Apparently not, the "Original Night Stalker" has never been caught.

The Original Night Stalker is the name given to an unidentified serial killer and rapist who murdered at least ten people in Southern California from 1979 through 1986.[2] The crimes initially centered on east Sacramento where at least fifty women were sexually assaulted between June 1976 to July 1979.[2] The perpetrator was dubbed the The East Area Rapist. In 2001 the Northern California rapes were linked by DNA to murders in Southern California.

The Original Night Stalker/The East Area Rapist was never apprehended; several suspects have been cleared through DNA, alibi or other investigative means and methods.[3][4] http://www.ask.com/wiki/Original_Night_Stalker

Anyway, one of psychological profilers felt like the guy might have had military training because he was able to subdue more than one person at one time. BTK killer spent 4 years in U.S. Air Force. There has been a lot of discussion here if the girls were taken by someone unknown to them did they put a struggle, or if one was subdued and the other girl went willingly. I agree with Marilyn that the perp was someone familiar to the girls and they felt like they "knew" him and went without a fight.

 

[cindersoot]

Military training or maybe access to an arsnel of guns. A hunter would know how to stalk, ambuse and kill. He would also have access to camo clothing.

 

[Bootsctr]

Military training or maybe access to an arsnel of guns. A hunter would know how to stalk, ambuse and kill. He would also have access to camo clothing.

I agree. A hunter is very patient too. They know where they are most likely to find their prey. They know the lay of the land.

 

[foxbluff]

I agree with you completely. I fear that, due to a lack of additional info to discuss, some of us have become rather nit-picky in an effort to prove some point or another. JMO. I don't see how LE's initial classification of this case makes any difference - it does nothing to explain who took/killed the girls.

Wow... coming from you, I have to say "ouch." IMHO I made a very creative "bumping of this thread" on 2/28, p.55, mess.#1354 which, IMHO, has helped keep this thread rolling. (yeah, everybody can thank me later...) <tongue in cheek & lol>

Until I asked a Q about a quote (slightly upthread), IMHO I've made very few posts since and I don't believe any of those were picking at anybody's timeln, etc. thoughts.

I guess if I had done a follow-up post to the IMO non-responsive "it's all one sentence" reply which I re'cd upthread to my Q about a quote, then perhaps that would have come under "nitpicky." We'll probably never know...

I'm crushed that, w/all the postings that have appeared here for days, you would elect to choose my post to make the above BBM remarks.

 

[SapphireSteel]

This brings me back to when and where they were abducted.

If they went at the lake, as it appears, the perp must've had foresight that they would bike straight into that lane.

How did he know this?

Say he sees them and watches them, maybe even knows them somehow. He would be following them, not waiting for them as appears to be the case.

So how did he get in place in the trap, immediately before the girls rode into it, if he was following them?

Attempting to change the subject (again) -

Has anyone got any theories as to the above?

 

[Marilynilpa]

Wow... coming from you, I have to say "ouch." IMHO I made a very creative "bumping of this thread" on 2/28, p.55, mess.#1354 which, IMHO, has helped keep this thread rolling. (yeah, everybody can thank me later...) <tongue in cheek & lol>

Until I asked a Q about a quote (slightly upthread), IMHO I've made very few posts since and I don't believe any of those were picking at anybody's timeln, etc. thoughts.

I guess if I had done a follow-up post to the IMO non-responsive "it's all one sentence" reply which I re'cd upthread to my Q about a quote, then perhaps that would have come under "nitpicky." We'll probably never know...

I'm crushed that, w/all the postings that have appeared here for days, you would elect to choose my post to make the above BBM remarks.

Wait a sec, I wasn't jumping off anyone's post. I was agreeing with otto that LE considered this an abduction from early on. I went on to mention that some posters have been a little nit-picky but I was certainly not addressing you. I was referring to all of the back and forth about whether LE felt this was an abduction or not, as well as other issues we have rehashed recently.

Sorry if I offended you, I would never intentionally do that. I think very highly of you, so please accept my apologies for inadvertently upsetting you.

Friends?lease:

 

[SapphireSteel]

The "back and forth" about the classification etc arose from the original attempt of mine to defend Mr G and Mr C for speaking to the media as they did.

My point always was, no matter what LE or suspicious minds on WS thought, Mr G and Mr C both spoke without realising how their statements would be picked apart on the internet, because when they spoke LE was still draining the lake and the townspeople themselves had no idea it was going to be a major crime.

That's what all the niggling came from - an attempt by myself to stop the only witnesses we know about being sleuthed, bashed and doubted yet again.

Now that's cleared up, can we discuss how someone could follow the girls yet still be at the Lake ahead of them?

 

[Marilynilpa]

The "back and forth" about the classification etc arose from the original attempt of mine to defend Mr G and Mr C for speaking to the media as they did.

My point always was, no matter what LE or suspicious minds on WS thought, Mr G and Mr C both spoke without realising how their statements would be picked apart on the internet, because when they spoke LE was still draining the lake and the townspeople themselves had no idea it was going to be a major crime.

That's what all the niggling came from - an attempt by myself to stop the only witnesses we know about being sleuthed, bashed and doubted yet again.

Can we discuss how someone could follow the girls yet still be at the Lake ahead of them?

BBM

Why do you assume the perp followed the girls on the day they were abducted? Maybe he knew the girls rode their bikes to the lake because he'd followed them before. But on the day of the abduction, he could have driven to the lake and just waited. JMO

Re TG - given the times released by LE, I do not see how he could have seen the girls' bikes on that day at that time. That, coupled with the fact that LE never refers to TG's sighting in any official timeline, makes me think TG's sighting is irrelevant. JMO.

 

[cindersoot]

BBM

Why do you assume the perp followed the girls on the day they were abducted? Maybe he knew the girls rode their bikes to the lake because he'd followed them before. But on the day of the abduction, he could have driven to the lake and just waited. JMO

Re TG - given the times released by LE, I do not see how he could have seen the girls' bikes on that day at that time. That, coupled with the fact that LE never refers to TG's sighting in any official timeline, makes me think TG's sighting is irrelevant. JMO.

:jail:

 

[SapphireSteel]

BBM

Why do you assume the perp followed the girls on the day they were abducted? Maybe he knew the girls rode their bikes to the lake because he'd followed them before. But on the day of the abduction, he could have driven to the lake and just waited. JMO

Re TG - given the times released by LE, I do not see how he could have seen the girls' bikes on that day at that time. That, coupled with the fact that LE never refers to TG's sighting in any official timeline, makes me think TG's sighting is irrelevant. JMO.

This is getting crazy... This is NOT my theory!

I have never ever believed this was a sexually motivated crime, as everyone knows. I have always believed the girls got either right to the park or very close to it, and were intercepted by someone they knew who knew they would be there.

I was addressing this post -

IMO, it all started behind the stores on Lafayette, which backed on to Brovan Blvd.

There, the perp was able to watch all the comings and goings of WC and L at the Collins' home.

As well, the perp was able to observe the activities around the Collins' household on Brovan Blvd., HC, DC and when they were home and regular routine(s) with their children.

Perp was able to watch L and E take their bike rides, maybe followed them on a few occasions to see where they rode.

Watching, fantasizing, planning and then made the move.

MOO

and this one

I agree, not sure where or when it started but in my opinion I do feel like they were being watched, and not just on that particular day. Either since school had let out for the summer, or, at least from when Lyric's mother started her new job.

and this one.

Your theory makes sense to me.

Also, if the perp observed the girls he may also have spoken to them. The girls may have felt they "knew" him, so when they saw him at the lake they weren't suspicious of him. JMO.

It's not my opinion at all that it occured this way, and because of this, I thought it would be good to talk further about this theory with those of you who do.

So to be totally clear, I do not believe that the perp was a stalker of the girls.

I do not believe they were taken for sexual purposes.

I believe the perp knew they would be at the lake at the time they were at the lake, because he/she/they planned it that way beforehand

I would like those who support the "watching, following" theory to explain to me how they think it was done because I'm hanged if I can see it.

 

[roseofsharon]

Your theory makes sense to me.

Also, if the perp observed the girls he may also have spoken to them. The girls may have felt they "knew" him, so when they saw him at the lake they weren't suspicious of him. JMO.

I think you are right! I wondered if the perp may have challenged the girls "race you to Meyers Lake", the reason for them riding so fast past the cctv. imo

 

[cindersoot]

Can we all just get along? =^..^=

 

[roseofsharon]

This brings me back to when and where they were abducted.

If they went at the lake, as it appears, the perp must've had foresight that they would bike straight into that lane.

How did he know this?

Say he sees them and watches them, maybe even knows them somehow. He would be following them, not waiting for them as appears to be the case.

So how did he get in place in the trap, immediately before the girls rode into it, if he was following them?

If the perp was befriending the girls days before and pre-planning by following them (if they had biked to Meyers Lake many times previous), he could have asked them where they liked to go once they got there and they might have described the jetty to him (but he was already familiar with Maiden Lane because I believe he is a local person) and knew the jetty was on the other side of the lane.

I can almost see this perp, in the lane, calling out ... so this is where you like to go and then beckoning them towards him because he had to show them something, a pretty butterfly?

Speculation and MOO.

 

[Marilynilpa]

This is getting crazy... This is NOT my theory!

I have never ever believed this was a sexually motivated crime, as everyone knows. I have always believed the girls got either right to the park or very close to it, and were intercepted by someone they knew who knew they would be there.

I was addressing this post -



and this one



and this one.



It's not my opinion at all that it occured this way, and because of this, I thought it would be good to talk further about this theory with those of you who do.

So to be totally clear, I do not believe that the perp was a stalker of the girls.

I do not believe they were taken for sexual purposes.

I believe the perp knew they would be at the lake at the time they were at the lake, because he/she/they planned it that way beforehand

I would like those who support the "watching, following" theory to explain to me how they think it was done because I'm hanged if I can see it.

I never said this was your theory. I believe both of us are responding to someone else's post about a possible theory. Your post made an assumption that the perp being discussed both followed AND arrived at the lake before the girls, and my post was a question as to why you assumed he followed the girls that day. No one but you said he followed them there, and I wanted to know what made you assume he did.

This thread is becoming way too argumentative, IMO. One definition of theory is "abstract thought or speculation". IMO everyone's theory has merit, whether we agree or disagree with it. It's all speculation anyway. Lately it feels like this thread has become a sounding board for a particular theory and if we don't subscribe to that theory, our posts are dissected and critiqued and questioned unnecessarily. JMO.

I believe I'll join some of our former frequent posters and just lurk.

 

[SapphireSteel]

But I was simply responding to your question as to how someone following the girls could be there ahead of them.

Wasn't that your question?

I think things are getting too argumentative for me. I'm going into lurking mode for a while, like some of our other formerly frequent posters.

Yes it was but I was asking from a standpoint of being interested, not of sharing the same theory.

 

[nursebeeme]

Can we all just get along? =^..^=

Yes, please do folks. Do not personalize posts. Thanks so much.

 

[Bootsctr]

This brings me back to when and where they were abducted.

If they went at the lake, as it appears, the perp must've had foresight that they would bike straight into that lane.

How did he know this?

Say he sees them and watches them, maybe even knows them somehow. He would be following them, not waiting for them as appears to be the case.

So how did he get in place in the trap, immediately before the girls rode into it, if he was following them?

I don't necessarily believe it was a trap. It could have been as random as someone sitting in the Meyers Lake parking lot and seeing the girls ride through the parking lot. Perp pulls out and accesses Maiden lane. The girls are already by the water and the bikes are at the gate where they were found. Perp walks to where the girls are. He either lures them back to his vehicle on Maiden Lane or he gets close enough to grab one and pulls a knife or a gun and walks them back to his vehicle, real quiet and quick-like. He quickly ties them and tapes their mouths shut. Shoves them in the floorboard of his vehicle or in the trunk. Then he's out of there. Takes them to where they were most likely killed and then dumps them at 7 Bridges within a few days.

 

[BunnyHop]

I'm going to change the topic.

I "think" DM sentence was so intense is because he punked out on his plea deal the day before the girls went missing. I forget now, (it's been so long) but wasn't he looking at 15 years instead of 75(?) if he plead? (thereabouts)

So, instead.......... he has cost the justice system hundreds of thousands.....

I don't know, but here in NY authorities do not smile on that. :twocents::twocents::twocents:

just saying............