IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #30

[cindersoot]

The Navaho People believe that hummingbirds are messengers between Earth and Heaven.

Wow, that's awesome.:rocker:

 

[Marilynilpa]

Yes, I agree.

Jumping off Rev's post - In the theme of "to everything there is a season," I personally would prefer to see that needed busy-ness directed towards giving the girls' siblings back as normal a homelife as possible.

Well said, foxbluff.

 

[Marilynilpa]

It's not easy to pinpoint the exact location of a gun shot, but it sure gets people attention and they do know the approximate direction. Last night, around midnight, someone set off fireworks in the endowment lands near here. It got my attention ... enough that I got up and looked. A gun shot is noticed, especially outside of hunting season.

You're probably right.

But I'm still not willing to rule it out.:what:

If the girls were strangled, I wonder how the perp kept one girl from running away while he strangled the other?

Maybe the girls were tied up after they were walked into that area?

 

[Arod]

Why? Because he is deperate, because he can, because he knows the area and that it is secluded. A hunter can carry a very large buck farther than that. I don't think the killer is a wimp, if he is a 240lb man and he is carrying a 145lb dead weight body, I really don't see a problem with that.

It's possible but on the other hand if the girls had been bound and gagged and marched to this area shortly after abduction near dusk where the perp could see where he was at , this theory just seems more plausible. I can't imagine carrying a body that far at night no matter how well you know the area.

 

[foxbluff]

According to the reporter:

""In the park were white sheets at two spots about 50 feet apart, according to a KCRG reporter."

http://wcfcourier.com/news/evansdal...cle_394b71f6-3f2c-11e2-8ae9-0019bb2963f4.html

In my defense :blushing:, that reporter on Dec. 6th reporting "white sheets at two spots" was not onsite that day, but rather reporting on an aerial image from far above.

Meanwhile, I see that 3cks has answered both my questions thus rendering them moot.

I have given that referenced aerial vw by media lots of thought over time. IMHO, we (unlike LE) owe the media a huge "thank you." Had it not been for that one picture, we would probably still not know how to find the exact place the bodies were found! imo

 

[georger]

There really isn't plenty of other places to leave remains in Iowa. I mean you have clusters of woods here and there, corn and bean fields and rivers and lakes. Dumping in a river could of been his first choice, yet the rivers were very dried up. I really believe that he took them to his property first and killed them there, then moved them later. I have heard that killers will dump the body as far from their property as possible to distance themselves from the crime. To disassociate themselves.

I tend toward a simple explanation: (a) girls were taken to the park for
privacy soon after abduction for perp to have his way with the girls, then
killed them. (b) park is not a dump site but the scene of the crime.

 

[foxbluff]

They were silverish, but rusted as well. I couldn't say what they came from. I think one of the videos actually shows when I'm panning around the area. They weren't big enough to cover a body. Also, if they were of any significance I would think LE would have removed them as evidence.

Ty 3cks... great description and most appreciated!

Do I dare impose further on you and Cinder by asking another question... this one which is probably of no interest to anybody but me!?!

Well, apparently I do dare: When you were near 7bridges did you happen to notice a farm bldg/outbldg and think "aha... bet that's the bldg LE gathered in on Dec. 5th to make plans for the next day's search, etc.?"

ETA: I'm only looking for a yes or no answer here.

 

[cluciano63]

I think one of the sheets could have been to cover partial remains, possibly moved by animals. They may have initially been left together.

 

[alliemay]

In July there would have been more overgrowth in the area the bodies were found. I wonder if it would have been possible for either of them to run with all the brush on the ground.

 

[foxbluff]

OMG...I'd never looked really closely at this picture, but I just realized something in seeing this.

Where the wreaths and flowers are placed at the site are NOT where the sheets are in this picture.

Remember the other area where I was showing you that was closer to the river bank where branches were clear cut off and you noticed it they were cut all the way up the tree? And the ground was all combed down to the dirt in a circular shape? THAT is where the one body was found...not where the wreaths were placed.

The memorial wreaths/flowers line up with the path, but these sheets don't form a straight line back to the path as I thought.

That's my error in assuming the placement of the wreaths/flowers represented where the bodies were found.

I can't be sure if the flowers are close to where the other body was found.

I gotta go back.

bbm - wow... very interesting and imo a great catch on the part of both our onsite reporters!

Though I had hoped that neither of our ws reporters would feel the need to turn around and go back to 7bridges due to technical failures, I now think somebody local needs to go there before the wild, green tangle of summer covers everything! lease:

 

[superbee]

It's snowing!

It snowed a little last night where I live too. I was going to have the studded winter tires taken off my car tomorrow, but think I will hold off for awhile yet, just in case.

 

[cindersoot]

I wonder the same thing. One can assume the perp did this at night, when the chances were very slim that someone would catch them.

Or, there were 2 perps and one stayed in the vehicle and could maybe be the "lookout person". This could be done even during the day.

I will be absolutely AMAZED if this person doesn't turn out to be a local...because even though my husband grew up about 20 mins from the park even WE took a wrong turn off the highway trying to find it. It is NOT a place you are going to find without knowledge or planning. When you turn off the highway there wasn't even a sign with an arrow or anything indicating "Seven Bridges Wildlife Area" or anything like that. It's literally just a gravel road turn off a highway with NO indication that the park is 2 miles down the road and 2 turns away.

Maybe the way Cinder came she can let us know if there was a sign, but the way we came there wasn't.

Also, there aren't really any farm houses close at all. There is one at the corner that I started at in video #1 (behind my vehicle)...other than that, there aren't any houses around that would see a vehicle come down the road.

I think this person would have a BETTER chance of not getting caught in July than they would in the fall/winter hunting months. In the summer, even if there was a vehicle at the turnabout I would naturally assume someone followed the path to go fish further down the river.

Yea, I agree this place was hard to find for sure. There are no signs that I saw that would direct me there. The one thing that I saw was the large white birch trees that were in news photos. Thats how I knew for sure I was close to the spot.

 

[otto]

Why? Because he is deperate, because he can, because he knows the area and that it is secluded. A hunter can carry a very large buck farther than that. I don't think the killer is a wimp, if he is a 240lb man and he is carrying a 145lb dead weight body, I really don't see a problem with that.

I don't really understand. If a perp wants to quickly dispose of two bodies, why not use a culvert, like Austin Sigg, rather than drive into a park frequented by hunters, carry each body 400 feet into a forest and leave the two bodies exposed? They were in a secluded area, but they were not buried or hidden. If body disposal is the objective, then carrying one body at a time such a distance seems like an awfully risky thing to do.

 

[otto]

You're probably right.

But I'm still not willing to rule it out.:what:

If the girls were strangled, I wonder how the perp kept one girl from running away while he strangled the other?

Maybe the girls were tied up after they were walked into that area?

These children were kidnapped. They were not on a field trip to the park. They were not free to run at any time after they met the perp. At the moment they were separated from their bikes, they were restrained. That is a given. In the stats, even young children are physcially assaulted at the time of the abduction.

I have no idea how the perp managed to restrain both children, but clearly that happened.

Drew Sjodin was in a parking lot when she was abducted. A knife was used and the sheath was found on the ground at the abduction site. Her body was found when the snow melted in an open field. She was injured during the abduction and her blood was in the perp's vehicle. That could also have happened in this case. Morgan Harrington was abducted and murdered. Her body was found not buried in a remote field. She had numerous injuries such as broken bones. That could have happened in this case as well. This was an extremely violent event ... not a drive to the county park, a walk in the field and then all of a sudden an assault while one child was able to run away.

 

[watcher9]

I agree that the girls may have been restrained or even in the trunk of a car.
The person could have easily controlled the girls by taking one out of the car and walking her to the spot where she was killed and then going back to the car to get the other one out. They just ended up in two separate places.

 

[carbuff]

I can't speak for Cinder, but I think the "easiest scenario" (if there is one) is to come in the same way we did. Keep in mind...in July the gate would be open. So the person could literally drive right to the turnabout (saving them probably a 200 yard walk from the gate/gravel road that comes into the park).

And in July, with there being no playground equipment, no camping sites, /hookups, picnic tables (that I saw anyway) I think foot AND vehicle traffic in that park is probably extremely slim.

Even though people may fish, canoe, etc. it would be a person or two in passing. I don't see it being what I would consider "heavily used" even in the summer time when I think of an actual park per se.

I don't feel that this person entered by boat. The water level so low, you probably couldn't even get a boat to that location during July of last year.

IF this person entered from private property, they would have had to drive through the woods, cross the Wapsi with bodies in tow, deposit the girls, and exit from the private property. I personally don't think you could drive a vehicle (or even a quad) through where we walked if the vegetation was there. However, hunters haul deer with quads through the timber all the time...so I suppose that's possible. Although I find unlikely, and VERY risky for the noise factor.

Could somebody have driven a 4-wheel vehicle or quad along that exposed riverbank?

 

[superbee]

It's possible but on the other hand if the girls had been bound and gagged and marched to this area shortly after abduction near dusk where the perp could see where he was at , this theory just seems more plausible. I can't imagine carrying a body that far at night no matter how well you know the area.

And wasn't one of the pairs of footwear flip flops? Weren't they supposedly found with one of the bodies? Flip flops are always falling off my feet, so wouldn't they fall off the feet of a dead body being carried? Risky business in the dark, unless they were carried in somehow with the body. And why bother? Hopefully the perp touched the flip flops in a way that left some evidence.

When I watched the videos and saw the uneven ground I can't imagine anyone walking around safely there in the dark, unless it was a bright moonlit night. Carrying a body makes it harder, how could they keep from tripping?

 

[Marilynilpa]

These children were kidnapped. They were not on a field trip to the park. They were not free to run at any time after they met the perp. At the moment they were separated from their bikes, they were restrained. That is a given. In the stats, even young children are physcially assaulted at the time of the abduction.

I have no idea how the perp managed to restrain both children, but clearly that happened.

Drew Sjodin was in a parking lot when she was abducted. A knife was used and the sheath was found on the ground at the abduction site. Her body was found when the snow melted in an open field. She was injured during the abduction and her blood was in the perp's vehicle. That could also have happened in this case. Morgan Harrington was abducted and murdered. Her body was found not buried in a remote field. She had numerous injuries such as broken bones. That could have happened in this case as well. This was an extremely violent event ... not a drive to the county park, a walk in the field and then all of a sudden an assault while one child was able to run away.

BBM

Your reasoning is solid, assuming the girls were abducted by a stranger. However, that is your opinion, not something that "is a given". JMO

I feel the girls willingly left with someone known to them, and may not have known until the last minute that anything bad was going to happen to them. JMO. Therefore I don't feel it "is a given" that the girls were restrained from the moment they were abducted. And I believe it's possible the girls walked willingly through the grass/brush if they were with a trusted adult. Again, JMO.

 

[superbee]

I don't really understand. If a perp wants to quickly dispose of two bodies, why not use a culvert, like Austin Sigg, rather than drive into a park frequented by hunters, carry each body 400 feet into a forest and leave the two bodies exposed? They were in a secluded area, but they were not buried or hidden. If body disposal is the objective, then carrying one body at a time such a distance seems like an awfully risky thing to do.

I agree it is risky business, especially if the perp was alone, so why do all that, especially with 2 bodies? There was a good chance he/she could explain away their presence in the park since it is a public use area, but hard to explain away a dead body in your arms.

 

[Sere-nity]

And wasn't one of the pairs of footwear flip flops? Weren't they supposedly found with one of the bodies? Flip flops are always falling off my feet, so wouldn't they fall off the feet of a dead body being carried? Risky business in the dark, unless they were carried in somehow with the body. And why bother? Hopefully the perp touched the flip flops in a way that left some evidence.

When I watched the videos and saw the uneven ground I can't imagine anyone walking around safely there in the dark, unless it was a bright moonlit night. Carrying a body makes it harder, how could they keep from tripping?

BBM. Is there a way to tell what nights the moon was full or close and cross check it against cloud cover sky? Maybe that will clue us into the when, assuming it was at night.

For reference I have played in similar dense woods with full moonlight and didn't need a flashlight to see... Especially since I was familiar with the woods.