IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #30

[RNER]

It's my perspective that we would have to severely under-estimate these children to assume that they did not realize how serious the siuation was prior to their murder.

Can you provide a hypothetical situation where children would get into a non-familial vehicle and where they remain unconcerned during a 20 mile ride into the countryside?

Promise of a trip somewhere fun, to meet someone they admire, to engage in an activity or adventure, to join with other kids, the promise of being allowed to do something or go somewhere that is forbidden by law or parents...all reasons for a child as well as an adult to go on a trip (or at least a promise of one) with a stranger. Add factors of possible anger or rebellion against parents (alleged to have ran away previously), the perp being a friend or known to the girls or family, and the possibility that the "abduction" started out as something innocent, and you have many "hypothetical situations" for them not to be concerned during a 20 mile ride...IF that is what occured after they were abducted.

IMO It is presumptuous to assume that they were taken against their will by a stranger, immediately on a 20 mile ride in the countryside and murdered, considering it is not known the manner in which they disappeared, who and how many people were involved, the motive behind the disappearances, where they were for 5 months, when or where they mudered, or if they were even murdered at all!

 

[carbuff]

I will find out this summer, but I don't think the under growth is that thick in the area. To me what is there now is long dried grass.

I was going to comment on that in the videos. The undergrowth did not look nearly as thick as the overhead photos from summer made it appear. Granted that long thick grass like that can hide a pretty large object until you're right on top of it -- still, I have to wonder whether the bodies were in fact covered with something. Another one of those things that we just don't know.

 

[carbuff]

Promise of a trip somewhere fun, to meet someone they admire, to engage in an activity or adventure, to join with other kids, the promise of being allowed to do something or go somewhere that is forbidden by law or parents...all reasons for a child as well as an adult to go on a trip (or at least a promise of one) with a stranger. Add factors of possible anger or rebellion against parents (alleged to have ran away previously), the perp being a friend or known to the girls or family, and the possibility that the "abduction" started out as something innocent, and you have many "hypothetical situations" for them not to be concerned during a 20 mile ride...IF that is what occured after they were abducted.

Not to mention that there's a wide group of people who they wouldn't really count as a stranger: neighbors, teachers, people from church, people from parent/aunt/grandmother's work, people pretending to be a teacher other authority figure.

 

[alliemay]

There are two organizations that I'm aware of. EPI stands for exceptional persons incorporated, a non profit charitable organization supporting individuals with disablilites and families with child care needs.

EPI, environmental professionals of Iowa, an organization that promotes education and standards of conduct and performance in the environmental field.

Thanks for the info, his name is Steve Mager from Waterloo/Cedar Falls.

 

[alliemay]

I'm not sure what I believe at this point...but I wonder about those who feel they were abducted (in the true sense of the word); what makes them believe this? There were no signs of struggle that we were made aware of. LE took a week to even classify it as an abduction, so I wonder if LE even felt that they were in imminent danger.

I have yet to feel a sense of urgency from LE (FBI, County, City, or otherwise). Maybe I'm the only one, but I certainly haven't felt it.

What makes those of you who feel they did NOT go willingly feel that way?

This is just a guess but I'm swaying towards thinking a knife might have been used, "scream and I cut your cousin, now get into the car" type of threat.....oh also wondering if they had been exploring the woods and this person came up behind them and took them by surprise. Just an opinion/feeling etc.

 

[Darcyline]

I don't think we really know enough right now to know what type of abduction it was. There is definitely a lot of grey area in between "total stranger who violently bound them immediately" and "Disney fun trip"
The one time something happened to me as a child I knew the second the door shut that something was off, but it was a church member so I basically told myself I was being stupid. It is possible that that happened-I believe Lyric and Elizabeth were smart children and perhaps realized something was off, but that doesn't mean they had to be physically bound or murdered immediately to keep them compliant. Sometimes knowing someone in some capacity goes a long way.
I am still at least halfway convinced it was someone they knew somehow rather than a total and complete stranger. Again, not much evidence to say for sure either way though.

 

[cindersoot]

The purse was found on the ground 10 feet East of the gate on the lake side of the fence. I'm of the opinion that these children, like other children that are abducted and murdered, did not deliberately leave the purse behind and did not think that they were going to have a fun adventure with a stranger.

I know where the purse was found, and as I have always said, I think the perp befriended the girls, so the girls trusted him, so they were not afraid to go with him. JMO

 

[cindersoot]

Not to mention that there's a wide group of people who they wouldn't really count as a stranger: neighbors, teachers, people from church, people from parent/aunt/grandmother's work, people pretending to be a teacher other authority figure.

I would like to add to that list, ( someone they rode bikes with on the trail).

 

[cindersoot]

We have to remember that child abductors are smart, they know how to abduct, that's why so many of them do it without being noticed.

 

[cindersoot]

It keeps coming back to the cctv video for me in terms of " something" going wrong.
The scene is off/odd somehow on its' own, imo- why are they racing around that corner on a hot dry day with a cool juice waiting at home, the street looks "lunch-time" deserted and desolate, who might have been behind those buildings?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/25/missing-iowa-cousins-video_n_1702822.html

I always thought they were going fast because they were meeting up with the perp and knew they didn't have a lot of time.

 

[watcher9]

How would releasing information about whether there was a sexual assault (assuming that could be determined given the condition of the remains) advance the investigation?

It could probably exclude the possibility of the perp being a female, though not in the Sandra Cantu case.

 

[Bootsctr]

I'm not sure what I believe at this point...but I wonder about those who feel they were abducted (in the true sense of the word); what makes them believe this? There were no signs of struggle that we were made aware of. LE took a week to even classify it as an abduction, so I wonder if LE even felt that they were in imminent danger.

I have yet to feel a sense of urgency from LE (FBI, County, City, or otherwise). Maybe I'm the only one, but I certainly haven't felt it.

What makes those of you who feel they did NOT go willingly feel that way?

:seeya: My first impression was they were abducted "in the true sense of the word."

1. I thought it was an abduction from the beginning just because of what the family was saying... "no way would the girls go swimming at Meyers Lake, it's full of leeches, etc."

2. I don't think there were signs of a struggle because the abduction happened outside. There wasn't any furniture to knock over, etc. and I don't think there was any blood either because I think the family would have spilled the beans about any blood at the scene. I think the perp either caught the girls off guard and used force (gun, knife, etc.), impersonating an officer or such to get them into his vehicle; OR the girls were familiar with the perp, perhaps a relative of some of their friends, someone they knew vaguely and got into the vehicle of their own free will. I do believe at some point, the girls became vividly aware they were in a precarious and dangerous situation before they got to 7-Bridges. In fact, the perp might have killed them before 7 Bridges or had to pull off to physically tie them up to subdue them because the girls were beginning to try to exit the vehicle.

3. Elizabeth's purse at the scene. That makes me think of Jessica Ridgeway's case and an article I read regarding when LE found her backpack with her glasses. For some reason, LE seemed to think the perp was sending a message that there was no reason for Jessica to take her glasses with her because she was not going to need them anymore, He knew he was going to kill her. I feel this is the same situation with Elizabeth's purse. She might have even tried to go and get it and was told leave it here you won't need it where we are going.

4. The bikes being left behind. They were the girls' mode of transportation. I don't think the girls had run away. I think if they were running away they would have taken backpacks with them w/clothes and food, etc. Yes, kids are forgetful and leave their stuff any where and everywhere, but the girls knew they had to be back at some point to Elizabeth's house so Lyric and her grandmother could return to Waterloo.

5. After reading subsequent articles, I feel like LE did treat the girls' disappearance as an abduction right from the beginning. Yes, they were draining the lake, but they were also doing car searches, house searches and even aerial searches, so I believe LE was serious from the beginning that this was an abduction.

6. The family, Drew and Heather, say LE told them the girls were taken by a sexual predator. I do take this with a grain of salt. No, a whole shaker of salt. But that's a whole 'nother story. :shush:

This is my theory if the girls' abduction involved sexual motive. :moo:

 

[Marilynilpa]

:seeya: My first impression was they were abducted "in the true sense of the word."

1. I thought it was an abduction from the beginning just because of what the family was saying... "no way would the girls go swimming at Meyers Lake, it's full of leeches, etc."

2. I don't think there were signs of a struggle because the abduction happened outside. There wasn't any furniture to knock over, etc. and I don't think there was any blood either because I think the family would have spilled the beans about any blood at the scene. I think the perp either caught the girls off guard and used force (gun, knife, etc.), impersonating an officer or such to get them into his vehicle; OR the girls were familiar with the perp, perhaps a relative of some of their friends, someone they knew vaguely and got into the vehicle of their own free will. I do believe at some point, the girls became vividly aware they were in a precarious and dangerous situation before they got to 7-Bridges. In fact, the perp might have killed them before 7 Bridges or had to pull off to physically tie them up to subdue them because the girls were beginning to try to exit the vehicle.

3. Elizabeth's purse at the scene. That makes me think of Jessica Ridgeway's case and an article I read regarding when LE found her backpack with her glasses. For some reason, LE seemed to think the perp was sending a message that there was no reason for Jessica to take her glasses with her because she was not going to need them anymore, He knew he was going to kill her. I feel this is the same situation with Elizabeth's purse. She might have even tried to go and get it and was told leave it here you won't need it where we are going.

4. The bikes being left behind. They were the girls' mode of transportation. I don't think the girls had run away. I think if they were running away they would have taken backpacks with them w/clothes and food, etc. Yes, kids are forgetful and leave their stuff any where and everywhere, but the girls knew they had to be back at some point to Elizabeth's house so Lyric and her grandmother could return to Waterloo.

5. After reading subsequent articles, I feel like LE did treat the girls' disappearance as an abduction right from the beginning. Yes, they were draining the lake, but they were also doing car searches, house searches and even aerial searches, so I believe LE was serious from the beginning that this was an abduction.

6. The family, Drew and Heather, say LE told them the girls were taken by a sexual predator. I do take this with a grain of salt. No, a whole shaker of salt. But that's a whole 'nother story. :shush:

This is my theory if the girls' abduction involved sexual motive. :moo:

Thanks for sharing your theory.

Regarding the bolded sentence, I don't believe this is true. It may be true Drew and Heather feel a sexual predator was involved, but I don't think they were told this by LE. JMO

 

[Just Pat 22]

bbm - they were already dead.

Thwe girls could have been tazzed and put into a trunk by Maiden Lane . I presonally think they were in the wrong place at the wrong time they could have seen a drug deal going down and got caught by the perp. Right now only the girls know what happened . I just pray that the perp or perps get caught soon and justice is done .MOO

 

[SapphireSteel]

It's my perspective that we would have to severely under-estimate these children to assume that they did not realize how serious the siuation was prior to their murder.

Can you provide a hypothetical situation where children would get into a non-familial vehicle and where they remain unconcerned during a 20 mile ride into the countryside?

The non-familial vehicle was being driven by someone they trusted...?

:twocents:

 

[Just Pat 22]

bbm - they were already dead.

The girls could have been tazzed and put into a trunk by Maiden Lane . I presonally think they were in the wrong place at the wrong time they could have seen a drug deal going down and got caught by the perp. Right now only the girls know what happened . I just pray that the perp or perps get caught soon and justice is done .MOO

 

[threecrazykids]

Thanks for sharing your theory.

Regarding the bolded sentence, I don't believe this is true. It may be true Drew and Heather feel a sexual predator was involved, but I don't think they were told this by LE. JMO

I tend to agree with you on this. I had posted an interview awhile ago where one of the things that caught my attention was how when the interviewer specifically asked Heather and Drew if LE had given any indication as to whether a sexual predator was involved and Drew quickly and almost intentionally reiterated "NOPE-NO-NOT AT ALL!!"

The reason it caught not only my attention, but also the interviewers is because he was so dead set on fundraising $ to assist LE in gathering the list of the missing registered sex offenders.

Tammy, Misty, and Drew have all made statements along the way they feel this was a sexual predator. I can't say for certain if Dan specifically mentioned an assumption of a sexual connection. Heather has made it as clear that she and Drew are not on the same page. That the bringing awareness of sex offenders is Drew's objective.

 

[janie]

Thanks for the info, his name is Steve Mager from Waterloo/Cedar Falls.

Given the additional information you provided, my earlier post that Exceptional Persons is an organization for intellectual and developmental disabilities was the correct organization:

http://wcfcourier.com/news/metro/co...cle_641f7819-3fab-5de7-9aa1-ff225e8664fd.html

 

[carbuff]

It keeps coming back to the cctv video for me in terms of " something" going wrong.
The scene is off/odd somehow on its' own, imo- why are they racing around that corner on a hot dry day with a cool juice waiting at home, the street looks "lunch-time" deserted and desolate, who might have been behind those buildings?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/25/missing-iowa-cousins-video_n_1702822.html

Yes, I agree, that video really bugs me.

It bugs me how far apart they are, for one thing.

It bugs me how fast they're moving -- and even if you take into account the frame speed of the camera, they're still moving pretty fast.

It bugs me how isolated that area seems to be, even in the middle of town. There are lots of angles where there seems to be nothing but fences and street. It looks like the kind of place where even if somebody did scream, they might not be heard over the industrial noises and isolation.

If they were racing, that wouldn't seem unusual. Kids do things like that and they don't always notice the heat. But there's just something...off...about the way they're moving.

 

[Bootsctr]

Thanks for sharing your theory.

Regarding the bolded sentence, I don't believe this is true. It may be true Drew and Heather feel a sexual predator was involved, but I don't think they were told this by LE. JMO

I do not disagree. And, if the girls were not bound when they reached 7-Bridges, the girls may have immediately gotten out of the vehicle and started running and the perp then shot them.