IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #32

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  • #621
I keep thinking about that pig gun and what it would do to a skull. If the ME found a fractured skull on both girls (sorry girls RIP) after eliminating gun types if need be, weapons, maybe they couldn't be conclusive in their ruling of the COD or it was drugs of some kind. Now with a weapon, maybe they can recreate what damage was done to the girls. Just one speculation. We know how Kathlynn was murdered, sounds the same as his victims that were alive to tell. Beating, pistol whipping, choking etc...only she had sharp trauma too. RIP Kathlynn. RIP.

Ballistics if there is a gun & conferring with ME, FBI, EPD, BHC Sheriff on all evidence I think there should be an answer soon. But then there's that lag in forensic testing everywhere. Hopefully, it's top priority.

May the strength be with all the family & law enforcement on all levels & the ME. If there is a connection, then hurry it up for the family & friends. The rest of the world wouldn't mind an answer either.

Kathlynn, died from multiple sharp & blount force traumas. Imo, this describes the injuries that would be caused by one of the many types of bolt stunners used in hog euthanization. Bolt Stunners cause sharp, as well blunt force trauma, depending on the type used. Anesthetic Overdose, Electrocution(cattle prods/stun guns), gunshot, and other methods are also used for euthanization of swine and other livestock..

Imo, MJ Klunder would have had access to multiple euthanization devices and would have been very experienced and skilled in using them. This should be considered by investigators when comparing COD of L & L, and any other possible victims, imo..

http://whotv.com/2013/06/09/autopsy-results-kathlynns-family-get-answers/
AUTOPSY RESULTS: Answers In Kathlynn’s Death

The state medical examiner says Kathlynn Shepard died from multiple sharp and blunt force injuries.

http://www.aasv.org/aasv/euthanasia.pdf

As shown in Table 1, there are various methods of humane euthanasia in pigs. The first step is to consider
which methods might be considered in each phase of production for each particular farm..

Table 2: Specific Euthanasia Methods for Swine
Penetrating and Blunt Force Trauma

http://www.qcsupply.com/farm-livest...sh-special-25-caliber-heavy-duty-stunner.html

Farm & Livestock / Handling / Bolt Stunners
Cash Special stunners are rugged and reliable with few...
 
  • #622
Not necessarily so. :waitasec:

I think at this point it's only none of Klunder's DNA was found on L&L.

There still could be useable DNA found which LE are keeping under the Cone of Silence.

They don't know whose it is yet, alternatively, (my pick) it is DNA that is consistent with the family/friends therefore explainable and proof of nothing at all.

:twocents:

'Perceived Hypothesis; the primary reason that many missing/murdered persons investigations grow cold'..Quote by Retired Miami Homicide Lt Det Joe Matthews/Adam Walsh case solved...

Due to the five month time that elapsed before L & L's remains were located. The elements; weather, scavenger, and other environmental contamination, etc, it is doubtful that use-able dna was collected, Imo.

Hopefully Edmond Locard's theory; that 'every contact leaves a trace', that all criminals leave behind some clue, and take with them some evidence that links them to the crime, will lead to conclusive answers in L & L's deaths..
 
  • #623
  • #624
Kathlynn, died from multiple sharp & blount force traumas. Imo, this describes the injuries that would be caused by one of the many types of bolt stunners used in hog euthanization. Bolt Stunners cause sharp, as well blunt force trauma, depending on the type used. Anesthetic Overdose, Electrocution(cattle prods/stun guns), gunshot, and other methods are also used for euthanization of swine and other livestock..

Imo, MJ Klunder would have had access to multiple euthanization devices and would have been very experienced and skilled in using them. This should be considered by investigators when comparing COD of L & L, and any other possible victims, imo..

http://whotv.com/2013/06/09/autopsy-results-kathlynns-family-get-answers/
AUTOPSY RESULTS: Answers In Kathlynn’s Death

The state medical examiner says Kathlynn Shepard died from multiple sharp and blunt force injuries.

http://www.aasv.org/aasv/euthanasia.pdf

As shown in Table 1, there are various methods of humane euthanasia in pigs. The first step is to consider
which methods might be considered in each phase of production for each particular farm..

Table 2: Specific Euthanasia Methods for Swine
Penetrating and Blunt Force Trauma

http://www.qcsupply.com/farm-livest...sh-special-25-caliber-heavy-duty-stunner.html

Farm & Livestock / Handling / Bolt Stunners
Cash Special stunners are rugged and reliable with few...

Didn't Klunder beat his first victim with his fists until she was almost dead? I don't think that he would need a weapon to cause blunt force injuries.
 
  • #625
Didn't Klunder beat his first victim with his fists until she was almost dead? I don't think that he would need a weapon to cause blunt force injuries.


Otto, he did not beat her with his fists. He beat her head against a wall and used a firearm to beat her for refusing to disrobe. She later came too and plead with him. He pistol whipped her again causing unconsciousness. When she awakened, she had head injuries and was badly bruised and bloody above her waist, wearing only her jeans. Klunder, leaving her jeans intact is very revealing, imo.
When Klunder attacked his prior victims, he did not work on a hog farm and would not have had access to a euthanasia captive bolt gun. Imo, this gun was used as a creative means to legally arm himself as a convicted felon...

Although he would not need a weapon to cause blunt force injuries. The injuries described by the ME in Kathlynn's COD would be consistent with the injuries from different euthanasia captive bolt guns, imo..

http://wcfcourier.com/news/local/kl...cle_2a2025c0-c521-11e2-a593-001a4bcf887a.html

He blocked my way out and told me to take my clothes off,” she said. “All I could think was, ‘I’m going to die.”

Twenty-six years later, Gansen, who now lives in Clear Lake, knows how close she might have come to death.

She has thought of it many times this past week — and of Klunder, and of Kathlynn Shepard of Dayton, his last victim.

The attack was vicious.

After Klunder got Gansen into the restroom she refused to disrobe.

Klunder began to struggle with her, banging her head against the wall of the restroom and pistol-whipping her in the head.

She momentarily lost consciousness. When she woke up, she said, she still wore slacks but some of her upper clothing was removed.

“I begged him to let me go. I told him I wouldn’t tell anyone,” she said, and he began to beat her again.

When she gained consciousness again, Klunder was gone.

She began to drag herself home, a few blocks away, bleeding. While her slacks had stayed in place, her breasts and chest were peppered with bruises. She said only two words to family members when she got home: “Gun” and “Klunder.”
______________________
Imo, when Klunder left her, he thought that she was deceased...
______________________

Scranton – who went on to serve as chief in Indianola and then Ankeny until his retirement in 2002 – says Klunder is on the list of the worst criminals he ever pursued. When the two toddlers were pulled from the dumpster, one girl had been choked.


From his perspective, Klunder deserved life in prison, Scranton said.

http://www.press-citizen.com/articl...mpleted-sex-offender-treatment-before-release
The following day, he abducted two 3-year-old girls who were playing outside his Charles City apartment complex. The toddlers were later found about 50 miles away, alive and abandoned in a trash bin near Northwood.

Paul Scranton was police chief in Charles City in 1991. In an interview with the Des Moines Register on Wednesday, he said he was “stunned” to see Klunder back in the news. He said he didn’t know Klunder had been released from prison.


“I’m convinced at the time of his crime in the ‘90s, that he thought at least one of the two girls was dead that he threw in the dumpster,” he said. “He had just a total disregard for their safety and welfare.”


Scranton didn’t know until he saw the news of the Dayton case that Klunder had been released from prison. Klunder’s name even came to mind last July when he saw news coverage of the disappearance of Elizabeth Collins and Lyric Cook-Morrissey from Evansdale, Scranton said.


Then, Scranton took solace believing that Klunder was still incarcerated, he said.
 
  • #626
I don't believe there would be any dna evidence found on the bodies of Lyric and Elizabeth. With the heat of the summer last year and the length of time, they would have been completely skeletonized. If they have some dna, it may have come from their clothing or from evidence found such as a bullet casing, rope, or zip ties.

There is a case on WS where Karelyn Markham's body was found in April, some two years after she was reported missing. Here is the thread when her body was discovered (post #921).

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148943&page=37

An article from her case describes how a forensic scientist might find evidence at a location site.

Based on that location, Geberth said he considers her death is a homicide. He said If Markham’s body was dumped as it appears it was, her body’s decomposition would have contaminated any DNA, because of the high levels of bacteria associated with a decaying cadaver, Geberth said.

“There are thousands of chemicals released when anything decomposes,” Angel said. “In this case, two years [into Markham’s disappearance] I might probe the ground for soft spots and air it out so the dogs can get a sniff of what is underground.”

Read more: http://www.kypost.com/dpps/news/reg...-might-turn-for-answers_8409296#ixzz2WaJ3G2SK
 
  • #627
Ironically, a few threads back we were discussing wild feral hogs possibly being a motive for L & L's abductor/s disposing of their bodies in the forest in close proximity of a river or creek. Feral Hogs have an extremely good sense of smell; hogs can scent 25 feet into the ground and up to 7 miles away.. Hogs do not perspire and require wetlands/rivers, etc., to survive.
We had surmised that the abductor was either a hunter, outdoorsman, farmer, etc.. Someone familiar with feral hog scavenger behavior..
(Footnote: although domestic feral hogs seldom exceed 300#, hybrids; boars/domestic swine, can exceed 800#)

http://www.agweekly.com/articles/2007/04/15/commodities/livestock/lvstk18.txt

States work to rid land of feral swine

By AMY LORENTZEN
Associated Press Writer


DES MOINES, Iowa (AP) –– They can weigh up to 300 pounds and are like snuffling, rooting machines.

Wild hogs roaming through at least 39 states are lately alarming wildlife officials by their population growth in northern states, such as Iowa and Michigan.

"They destroy the natural habitat that's out there," said Angi Bruce, who heads the Iowa Department of Natural Resource's southwest wildlife bureau. "It basically looks like a plow has gone through the area."

Feral swine, numbering an estimated 4 million nationwide, can spread disease if they come in contact with domestic pigs. That's a big concern in Iowa, which boasts the top pork production in the nation.

The rooting and wallowing activities of the creatures, which tear apart the earth to search for food, have also forced some farmers to repeatedly replant fields.
 
  • #628

I have intervened several times when I saw adults with small children who were acting up and the adult seemed to be losing it. No abductions prevented, just an overwhelmed adult with an overstimulated child.

I would not have intervened in the example shown in the video because to me, that child did not sound frightened at all. She sounded like a kid putting on a calculated temper tantrum with a stepfather. Since the "stepfather" wasn't doing anything overtly abusive, I would have said to myself "yet another little drama princess in full bloom" and gone on.

And I would have been completely accurate. That child really wasn't terrified, she was putting on an act.

I believe it is important to listen to my gut feelings about things, an opinion that was reinforced by Gavin de Becker in his book The Gift of Fear (a must read for anyone who is venturing out in the world, in my opinion).
 
  • #629
  • #630
OT-There is a missing 2 month old baby boy in Minnesota. If anyone knows how to start a thread, the story is on the kare11.com website. This is in Minneapolis/St. Paul area. The mother apparently put the baby down on a couch at 1 a.m. and he was missing at 6 a.m.
 
  • #631
  • #632
I have intervened several times when I saw adults with small children who were acting up and the adult seemed to be losing it. No abductions prevented, just an overwhelmed adult with an overstimulated child.

I would not have intervened in the example shown in the video because to me, that child did not sound frightened at all. She sounded like a kid putting on a calculated temper tantrum with a stepfather. Since the "stepfather" wasn't doing anything overtly abusive, I would have said to myself "yet another little drama princess in full bloom" and gone on.

And I would have been completely accurate. That child really wasn't terrified, she was putting on an act.

I believe it is important to listen to my gut feelings about things, an opinion that was reinforced by Gavin de Becker in his book The Gift of Fear (a must read for anyone who is venturing out in the world, in my opinion).

How does an abducted child act, Grainne Dhu? There is no template, or way to gauge if an abducted victim is putting on an act, or actually being taken..
 
  • #633
I don't believe there would be any dna evidence found on the bodies of Lyric and Elizabeth. With the heat of the summer last year and the length of time, they would have been completely skeletonized. If they have some dna, it may have come from their clothing or from evidence found such as a bullet casing, rope, or zip ties.

There is a case on WS where Karelyn Markham's body was found in April, some two years after she was reported missing. Here is the thread when her body was discovered (post #921).

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148943&page=37

An article from her case describes how a forensic scientist might find evidence at a location site.

Based on that location, Geberth said he considers her death is a homicide. He said If Markham’s body was dumped as it appears it was, her body’s decomposition would have contaminated any DNA, because of the high levels of bacteria associated with a decaying cadaver, Geberth said.

“There are thousands of chemicals released when anything decomposes,” Angel said. “In this case, two years [into Markham’s disappearance] I might probe the ground for soft spots and air it out so the dogs can get a sniff of what is underground.”

Read more: http://www.kypost.com/dpps/news/reg...-might-turn-for-answers_8409296#ixzz2WaJ3G2SK

Good information thanks. I not sure but thought I read that Lyric and Elizabeth bodies were partially skeletonized, not completely. Could be wrong though.
 
  • #634
  • #635
I have intervened several times when I saw adults with small children who were acting up and the adult seemed to be losing it. No abductions prevented, just an overwhelmed adult with an overstimulated child.

I would not have intervened in the example shown in the video because to me, that child did not sound frightened at all. She sounded like a kid putting on a calculated temper tantrum with a stepfather. Since the "stepfather" wasn't doing anything overtly abusive, I would have said to myself "yet another little drama princess in full bloom" and gone on.

And I would have been completely accurate. That child really wasn't terrified, she was putting on an act.

I believe it is important to listen to my gut feelings about things, an opinion that was reinforced by Gavin de Becker in his book The Gift of Fear (a must read for anyone who is venturing out in the world, in my opinion).

Thanks for reminding me about the book " The Gift of Fear".
It was given to me a number of years ago and passed on to others, but it really made some excellent points about gut feelings. Particularly moving was the account of a woman who, after being raped in her own bedroom noticed the perp casually close her window and said he will leave soon" promise". This prompted her to pull a sheet around herself and silently shadow him as he passed the living room stereo and turned it up and pause by her kitchen cutlery drawer....
Luckily victim intuited that her neighbour's door would be unlocked and she dashed in and made good her escape.
 
  • #636
How does an abducted child act, Grainne Dhu? There is no template, or way to gauge if an abducted victim is putting on an act, or actually being taken..

You have to rely on your own judgement in deciding if something is wrong. I agree with Grainne Dhu that the video, to me, shows a child being a drama princess and I would not have intervened.
 
  • #637
How does an abducted child act, Grainne Dhu? There is no template, or way to gauge if an abducted victim is putting on an act, or actually being taken..

In that situation, I think the child would sound frightened rather than angry and tantrum-y. A child that sounds angry and as if she's putting on an act just doesn't trip my internal alarm.

Your mileage may vary, of course.
 
  • #638
Possibly only the mother would know the difference.

I was at the shops just yesterday and a small child let out a sudden shriek that could only have been produced by having it's throat slit - except it was smiling at the time.

:dunno:

If Klunder is the perp, then he probably abducted the girls the exact same way - drove up to them, lent out of his car and asked them if they wanted to earn some money/find some hogs/whatever.

Except that's not what happened.

We know the girls were abducted in a very quiet out of the way spot, in a place where there is no access for cars, nor obvious reason for unattended children. Unless you think Klunder was smart enough to stage the bikes, it's fairly obvious this was a trap the girls walked into, not a pursuit. Even family said so on the day.

:moo:
 
  • #639
respectfully snipped form SS's above

If Klunder is the perp, then he probably abducted the girls the exact same way - drove up to them, lent out of his car and asked them if they wanted to earn some money/find some hogs/whatever.

BBM :floorlaugh: Sorry but that just made me fall out for a sec there.
 
  • #640
Possibly only the mother would know the difference.

I was at the shops just yesterday and a small child let out a sudden shriek that could only have been produced by having it's throat slit - except it was smiling at the time.

:dunno:

If Klunder is the perp, then he probably abducted the girls the exact same way - drove up to them, lent out of his car and asked them if they wanted to earn some money/find some hogs/whatever.

Except that's not what happened.

We know the girls were abducted in a very quiet out of the way spot, in a place where there is no access for cars, nor obvious reason for unattended children. Unless you think Klunder was smart enough to stage the bikes, it's fairly obvious this was a trap the girls walked into, not a pursuit. Even family said so on the day.

:moo:

Klunder, was very calculating, creative, and manipulative, imo. He used four different abduction methods in the four known prior abductions/6 victims. He had two decades in prison to perfect his craft. I'm sure MJK had many more creative tricks up his sleeve. Sexual Predators/serial killers are synonymous to con men...

I am confident that if MJK had escaped justice once again, after Kathlynn and Dezi's abduction, and once the heat was off. He would have struck again in another unsuspecting community. Imo, his level of confidence and need for psychological/sexual gratification was progressing rapidly...
 
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