IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #32

[Foxfire]

Rather than removing both Kathleen and Dezi from his vehicle simultaneously. He removed only Kathlynn. Was he expecting company? An associate?
Anyone have any more info as too an RSO facebook friend?

http://greenepublishing.com/oldsitesave/archivethirtyseven.html
A Close Encounter With A Killer Mind
By Tyrra B Meserve
Greene Publishing, Inc.

Since the beginning of time, within every culture, in every society, there have been those who are incapable of adapting and blending within the boundaries of their communal environment. Driven by a force that is incomprehensible to the peers upon which they prey, they feed on the terror and panic their crimes leave in the heart of the community. Unable to control their carnal desires for more than just brief moments, they reside in the dark recesses of the mind, opportunistically seizing victims to compensate for shortcomings they themselves are unable to overcome.

Behind false smiles, it is truly then that the eyes become the window to the soul, or in some cases, the lack thereof.
In most instances, the serial killer acts alone, extracting pleasure from the anonymity that he presents. However, in rare cases, these predators find in each other a kindred mind, linking up to work together, proving the old adage of water seeking its own level, even for heinous reasons. Whether the union is long-term, or short-lived, these serial killing partners present a unique problem for law enforcement officers trying to solve crimes.
read more-

 

[Grainne Dhu]

Once heard that if LE do not release any info. it is because "they have something" and if they do give the public info. it is because they have " nothing". Unsure if that is true or not, but am hoping that is happening in this case.

That is certainly true when it comes to the FBI. Ask Steven Hatfill, Richard Jewell or Wen Ho Lee (all investigated and leaked by the FBI, all innocent and all recipients of large settlements).

I've long thought that the reason for the silence is that they have a small amount of evidence and they don't want to blow the case by making it public. For instance, if they get any confessions, they will want to be sure that they don't get pulled into a Henry Lee Lucas situation where all the information in almost all the confessions turned out to have been publicly available or disclosed to Lucas previously by LE.

 

[Marilynilpa]

Please keep in mind that serial killers are different in many ways from those who abduct and murder children. I've posted a link several times to a study of child abduction murders, which is more relevant, IMO, when trying to understand a person like Klunder. He was not a serial killer of adults, he was a child abductor who murdered a child.

http://www.atg.wa.gov/uploadedFiles...)/Child_Abduction_Murder_Research/CMIIPDF.pdf

ETA: Sexual gratification is the one common factor in serial murders and child abduction murders.

But the etiology is very different for a child abduction murderer like Klunder, which is very important IMO.

 

[Foxfire]

That is certainly true when it comes to the FBI. Ask Steven Hatfill, Richard Jewell or Wen Ho Lee (all investigated and leaked by the FBI, all innocent and all recipients of large settlements).

I've long thought that the reason for the silence is that they have a small amount of evidence and they don't want to blow the case by making it public. For instance, if they get any confessions, they will want to be sure that they don't get pulled into a Henry Lee Lucas situation where all the information in almost all the confessions turned out to have been publicly available or disclosed to Lucas previously by LE.

Grainne Dhu, that depends on which opinion or msm article you read about Henry Lee Lucas. Lucas's lover & associate Otis Toole; abductor/murderer of Adam Walsh, also confessed to Adam's abduction, but due to perceived hypothesis by LE, and a dropped ball by investigators. Adam Walsh's case set cold for 3 decades...until re-investigated by Miami Homicide Lt. Joe Matthews(AMW)..
Imo, perceived hypothesis is why Elizabeth & Lyric's case went cold....

 

[B4igo2it]

http://www.kcrg.com/news/local/Poli...vansdale-Abductions-Connection-212170001.html

snipped:

"The Evansdale police chief said a few weeks ago that they would know soon if there is a connection. However, they have started to back off on that timeline. "

 

[Foxfire]

Please keep in mind that serial killers are different in many ways from those who abduct and murder children. I've posted a link several times to a study of child abduction murders, which is more relevant, IMO, when trying to understand a person like Klunder. He was not a serial killer of adults, he was a child abductor who murdered a child.

http://www.atg.wa.gov/uploadedFiles...)/Child_Abduction_Murder_Research/CMIIPDF.pdf

Marilynilpa, on page 31(paraphrasing from memory), it states that LE spends too much time focusing on the parents and last seen, when an abduction by a stranger is indicated..Time is critical for a successful conclusion. L & L's abduction had all the indicators of an abduction by a stranger sexual predator, imo..

It doesn't matter if it is an adult victim or child. Many of the same traits are synonymous. It is about control; the control of life and death over others...

 

[Marilynilpa]

Grainne Dhu, that depends on which opinion or msm article you read about Henry Lee Lucas. Lucas's lover & associate Otis Toole; abductor/murderer of Adam Walsh, also confessed to Adam's abduction, but due to perceived hypothesis by LE, and a dropped ball by investigators. Adam Walsh's case set cold for 3 decades...until re-investigated by Miami Homicide Lt. Joe Matthews(AMW)..
Imo, perceived hypothesis is why Elizabeth & Lyric's case went cold....

I'm not convinced Lyric and Lizzie's case is cold. I'm still hoping LE is more on top of this than it appears.

 

[Marilynilpa]

Marilynilpa, on page 31(paraphrasing from memory), it states that LE spends too much time focusing on the parents and last seen, when an abduction by a stranger is indicated..Time is critical for a successful conclusion. L & L's abduction had all the indicators of an abduction by a stranger sexual predator, imo..

It doesn't matter if it is an adult victim or child. Many of the same traits are synonymous. It is about control; the control of life and death over others...

I agree, but my point is that when discussing Klunder and his actions, it would be more relevant to focus on the characteristics of other child abductors/killers rather than comparing him to serial killers. And I disagree that many of the same traits are synonymous, in fact I feel there are more differences than similarities. JMO

 

[SapphireSteel]

Marilynilpa, on page 31(paraphrasing from memory), it states that LE spends too much time focusing on the parents and last seen, when an abduction by a stranger is indicated..Time is critical for a successful conclusion. L & L's abduction had all the indicators of an abduction by a stranger sexual predator, imo..

It doesn't matter if it is an adult victim or child. Many of the same traits are synonymous. It is about control; the control of life and death over others...

Abduction by stranger is not indicated in L&L's case.

It is very possible that LE know more than we do, which causes them to focus in one area.

Because we don't know what evidence they have, it is easy for some to accuse of them focusing in the wrong place.

As the crime is still unsolved, no one outside of LE has a clue what's going on behind closed doors.

 

[Foxfire]

snipped:

"The Evansdale police chief said a few weeks ago that they would know soon if there is a connection. However, they have started to back off on that timeline. "

It is not unusual for investigators to miss the obvious indicators/links of an active serial killer/sexual predator in their midst for years due to jurisdictional linkage blindness(phrase coined by Dr. Egger in the 1970's), communication, etc.

While investigating Dexter Todd Lee; Baton Rouge serial killer. Investigators discovered another serial killer; Gaddis, who had killed several women and was operating right under their noses. They had failed to recognize that Gaddis was emulating DTL. When Gaddis was arrested, many msm articles of DTL's evil deeds were found in his home...

 

[Foxfire]

Abduction by stranger is not indicated in L&L's case.

It is very possible that LE know more than we do, which causes them to focus in one area.

Because we don't know what evidence they have, it is easy for some to accuse of them focusing in the wrong place.

As the crime is still unsolved, no one outside of LE has a clue what's going on behind closed doors.

*SapphireSteel*, I respectfully disagree...
'Perceived Hypothesis, Sapphire Steel', imo... and why L & L's abduction investigation grew cold, imo...common error in missing/murdered persons investigations..

Sapphire Steel, if an investigator couldn't see the obvious indicators or rely on the statistics in child abductions. Imo, he should turn in his/her ID, badge & gun in, shut off the open sign, and slam the door on his/her way out to his/her new occupation..

 

[Foxfire]

I agree, but my point is that when discussing Klunder and his actions, it would be more relevant to focus on the characteristics of other child abductors/killers rather than comparing him to serial killers. And I disagree that many of the same traits are synonymous, in fact I feel there are more differences than similarities. JMO

All of Klunders victims were not children. The one he went to prison for was 21 years old.
MJK started out his life of evil as do most serial killers. MLK was 15 years old when he comitted his first violent sexual assault.. Their will more than likely be other signs such as arson and the torture of animals>symbols...
cat>feline>female....
It is a common denominator for sexual predators/serial killers..

 

[SapphireSteel]

*SapphireSteel*, I respectfully disagree...
'Perceived Hypothesis, Sapphire Steel', imo... and why L & L's abduction investigation grew cold, imo...common error in missing/murdered persons investigations..

Sapphire Steel, if an investigator couldn't see the obvious indicators or rely on the statistics in child abductions. Imo, he should turn in his/her ID, badge & gun in, shut off the open sign, and slam the door on his/her way out to his/her new occupation..

Perhaps you have a "Perceived Hypothesis" too.

There is exactly zero to indicate L&L were taken by Klunder, or even sexually assaulted.

 

[Dr. Know?]

Did Klunder kill Kathlynn before he found out that DH had escaped?

Then killed himself after he knew DH had gotten away.

 

[Foxfire]

Perhaps you have a "Perceived Hypothesis" too.

There is exactly zero to indicate L&L were taken by Klunder, or even sexually assaulted.

SapphireSteel, time will tell...it usually does...Zero huh?..

SapphireSteel, from research of sexual predators/serial killers, there are many obvious signs indicating stranger abductions.. They want to be unique but they are not..There is always signs and residue left in their wake.

SapphireSteel, many times it is what is not seen, that is the indicators.

Victims/Prey, were only items, objects, or chess pieces to MJK.. He was aware that the clues, left in his wake(abduction site or ritual grounds/burial grounds residue) weren't visibly obvious to the seasoned homicide investigator; 'love, rage, hatred, fear, evil'... because they can't be touched, seen, smelled, or heard, imo.

 

[RNER]

*SapphireSteel*, I respectfully disagree...
'Perceived Hypothesis, Sapphire Steel', imo... and why L & L's abduction investigation grew cold, imo...common error in missing/murdered persons investigations..

Sapphire Steel, if an investigator couldn't see the obvious indicators or rely on the statistics in child abductions. Imo, he should turn in his/her ID, badge & gun in, shut off the open sign, and slam the door on his/her way out to his/her new occupation..

"Obvious indicators or statistics" won't convict! IMO...it is presumptuous to assume that investigators in L & L's case don't have obvious indicators. Perhaps that is ALL they have at this point. PROVING the obvious and gathering enough evidence to convict a perp, whether it is a stranger abduction or by someone known, is why this case appears "cold" imo.

 

[Foxfire]

"Obvious indicators or statistics" won't convict! IMO...it is presumptuous to assume that investigators in L & L's case don't have obvious indicators. Perhaps that is ALL they have at this point. PROVING the obvious and gathering enough evidence to convict a perp, whether it is a stranger abduction or by someone known, is why this case appears "cold" imo.

You cant convict a deceased Predator, RNER..

 

[SapphireSteel]

SapphireSteel, time will tell...it usually does...Zero huh?..

SapphireSteel, from research of sexual predators/serial killers, there are many obvious signs indicating a stranger abductions.. They want to be unique but they are not..There is always signs and residue left in their wake.

SapphireSteel, many times it is what is not seen, that is the indicators.

Victims/Prey, were only items, objects, or chess pieces to MJK.. He was aware that the clues, left in his wake(abduction site or ritual grounds/burial grounds residue) weren't visibly obvious to the seasoned homicide investigator; 'love, rage, hatred, fear, evil'... because they can't be touched, seen, smelled, or heard, imo.

What are the indicators you see in L&L's case? :dunno:

 

[Marilynilpa]

You cant convict a deceased Predator, RNER..

You are assuming Klunder killed the girls which, IMO, is totally unproven at this point.

 

[Dr. Know?]

Because of the blood at the pig confinement of Kathlynn's, I think Klunder intended on killing both girls after he was done with them. DH escaped so he knew he would be caught and killed himself. At least that's what it sounds like. He intended to kill them both. That's important to me. That fits with what had been done to the girl's, E&L. (don't know about any sexual assault on any of them).

http://www.dps.state.ia.us/commis/pib/Releases/2013/05-23-2013_ShepardBloodEvidence.htm

I'm open to any perp though, there's a few. Klunder just fits too well. RSO friend lives by the lake right around the corner from Brovan...Klunder knew Bremer Co...Has previous dual kidnappings, two. The twins & KS & DH. A horrible urge that gets out of control, 21 year old and the twins a day apart. He was a horror show on two feet waiting to happen.

Hopefully, soon they will rule him in or out. The waiting is awful.