IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #33

[SapphireSteel]

The two bikes TG saw were laying across the bike path. The bikes LE found were leaning up against the fence. If the two bike TG saw were the girls, then someone moved them before LE arrived.

I remember discussing this and IIRC no one actually said how the bikes were placed when found.

ETA: I just listened to an entire 16 minute interview and Abben said that when HE got there, one was propped up against the fence, the other had a kickstand so presumably was on the kickstand.

The next question asked was "how do you think they got there" and he was at pains to say that he had no idea how they got there, who put them there, or who moved them (if anyone).

Very vague...it's hard to tell if he means LE had moved them before he got there, or onlookers, or if they were found that way.

For this reason, unless anyones got another link clarifying, we cant be 100% sure what position the bikes were discovered in, although it seems likely to me they were propped when found.

Which in turn means, someone moved them after 12.20.

Which turns back and loops into the "staging" implications Abben had made earlier.

Which in turn slots nicely into my theory, that when Mr G rode by and saw the bikes on the ground, the perp was still there in the bushes. Mr G probably rode right by him, and possibly, the girls.

For some reason, he delayed long enough to prop the bikes.

Why????

EETA: unless the girls themselves returned and propped the bikes? Someone said, don't leave your bikes on the path like that?

:sick:


:moo:

 

[Bootsctr]

The boys took their bikes and left before the girls arrived. But, the girls were followed.

 

[Sunlight]

I remember discussing this and IIRC no one actually said how the bikes were placed when found.

ETA: I just listened to an entire 16 minute interview and Abben said that when HE got there, one was propped up against the fence, the other had a kickstand so presumably was on the kickstand.

The next question asked was "how do you think they got there" and he was at pains to say that he had no idea how they got there, who put them there, or who moved them (if anyone).

Very vague...it's hard to tell if he means LE had moved them before he got there, or onlookers, or if they were found that way.

For this reason, unless anyones got another link clarifying, we cant be 100% sure what position the bikes were discovered in, although it seems likely to me they were propped when found.

Which in turn means, someone moved them after 12.20.

Which turns back and loops into the "staging" implications Abben had made earlier.

Which in turn slots nicely into my theory, that when Mr G rode by and saw the bikes on the ground, the perp was still there in the bushes. Mr G probably rode right by him, and possibly, the girls.

For some reason, he delayed long enough to prop the bikes.

Why????

EETA: unless the girls themselves returned and propped the bikes? Someone said, don't leave your bikes on the path like that?

:sick:


:moo:

Yes, I could see that as a possibility. It would throw questions into what was really seen on Brovan, which is also somewhat vague. In other words, if it wasn't the girls on the cctv footage, and if the "information" Abben said he had about them being on Brovan at 12:23 was not true or accurate. It can't be both ways. MOO

 

[Sunlight]

If the Brovan sighting(s) are not really the girls (mistaken identity in a blurry video, or mistaken identity by a witness), then that leaves the arrival of the bikes at the lake at a possibly somewhat earlier time. MOO

 

[alliemay]

I'm moving past the 12:20 siting of the bikes because the girls were last seen between 12:30 and 1:00 pm by the man watering his lawn. I still think the bikes found by the firemen were the girls, officially identified or not. I still think they were followed, but I'm not sure if they were targeted. I can't get the fact that the day care center near there took the children on walks in the park as part of their routine. So it's possibly the perp was scouting around in that area for a victim when he noticed the girls. Just an opinion.

 

[Squeeze]

I'm moving past the 12:20 siting of the bikes because the girls were last seen between 12:30 and 1:00 pm by the man watering his lawn. I still think the bikes found by the firemen were the girls, officially identified or not. I still think they were followed, but I'm not sure if they were targeted. I can't get the fact that the day care center near there took the children on walks in the park as part of their routine. So it's possibly the perp was scouting around in that area for a victim when he noticed the girls. Just an opinion.

JMO, but I don't put much stock into The Lawn Watering Guy's timeline. Or even that he saw the girls at all. I personally think he is confused. Just the fact that he was "watering his lawn" strikes me as odd. His yard is not particularly well cared for. No flowers, etc. I just can't see the guy out doing anything like that, and thereby becoming a witness.

 

[B4igo2it]

I wonder how many people were at the park during the time the girls were there. Aunt Tammy was convincing when she stated the girls were trained, taught and aware of stranger danger. I don't know if one of the girls would run for help and leave the other if captured; or would be so terrified that would do whatever the "stranger" instructed. Then we look at the recent Kathlynn & D case and are made aware how E-Z it was for MJK to abduct them.

 

[B4igo2it]

Lyric's prior behavior in the days prior lead me to believe she may have had a "crush" on a boy ... what I don't know is if HE had ulterior motives and these girls were not threatened or frightened to go with him. Did he meet them by the gate? Is he old enough to drive? The cousin of Aunt Tammy should be able to provide this information to LE.

Per Lyric's Mom: "A week before this, Lyric and her other cousin, Tammy`s daughter, K (ph), who were in Green Briar, which is another division of Waterloo, and they went walking to the park. They were gone for an extended amount of time. We went looking for them at the park, and they weren`t there. So we called the police. They -- right when I called the police they came walking up to the house. "

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP...7/ijvm.01.html
BBM - where in the heck were they and were they talking to someone in particular?

 

[Foxfire]

I wonder how many people were at the park during the time the girls were there. Aunt Tammy was convincing when she stated the girls were trained, taught and aware of stranger danger. I don't know if one of the girls would run for help and leave the other if captured; or would be so terrified that would do whatever the "stranger" instructed. Then we look at the recent Kathlynn & D case and are made aware how E-Z it was for MJK to abduct them.

Imo, if MJK is responsible, he would have used a ruse to finesse L & L in his vehicle, as he did with K & D. I am confident that K & D would have been aware of stranger danger by the age of 15, yet were lured by MJK.
One of the abduction safety tips taught children is to travel in pairs. In both of these abductions this abduction prevention tip may have actually hindered their safety, due to providing a false sense of security, imo.

In the past child abductions/murders seem to be rare, but are becoming more commonplace across the USA. Although many of these abduction/murders are domestic related. Opportunist abductions by child sexual predators as in K & D, Jessica Ridgeway(CO), and possibly L&L are also on the rise, imo..

 

[B4igo2it]

This is another victim that fortunately was rescued, but the point of this post is to show how E-Z it was for the PED to abduct him; you know, they can seem so normal and trusting ... and then become the devil & the poor child's worst nightmare. How can we, as normal human beings, even begin to understand the mentality of these evil beings who torture and do unthinkable things to a child!
http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art27174.asp

 

[KALI]

Somewhere there is a monster that grabbed these little girls and murdered them.
It's downright amazing that their bodies were found-or what was left of their bodies.
There is a child killer/monster on the loose.
Seriously. Anyone who would abduct and murder two children is a sick, sick person that needs to be caught pronto.
Has any TV program profiled this case?
If not, how can we bring this awful crime to their attention?
Seriously, two little girls riding their bikes are kidnapped in broad daylight and murdered?
I can hardly imagine if this happened to my daughter.
I would be wild.
No body in law enforcement would sleep a wink because I would be All over them for answers.
Daily, maybe even hourly.
How can a parent not be crazed about the abduction and murder of their child?

 

[Foxfire]

This is another victim that fortunately was rescued, but the point of this post is to show how E-Z it was for the PED to abduct him; you know, they can seem so normal and trusting ... and then become the devil & the poor child's worst nightmare. How can we, as normal human beings, even begin to understand the mentality of these evil beings who torture and do unthinkable things to a child!
http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art27174.asp

B4igo2it, thanx for sharing..eyeopening..

RE: How can we, as normal human beings, even begin to understand the mentality of these evil beings who torture and do unthinkable things to a child!

Malignant psychopaths, B4igo2it. These deviant predators have no empathy for their victims, and are deplete of other human emotions.. I normally rationalize their abnormal behavior and lack of empathy to myself by analogizing them as mountain lions, rather than humans. Their traits are synonymous, imo..

 

[alliemay]

JMO, but I don't put much stock into The Lawn Watering Guy's timeline. Or even that he saw the girls at all. I personally think he is confused. Just the fact that he was "watering his lawn" strikes me as odd. His yard is not particularly well cared for. No flowers, etc. I just can't see the guy out doing anything like that, and thereby becoming a witness.

Yes it is possible that he was confused but it appears that LE is taking his word for it because the 12:30 to 1:00 is used on their timeline, it was also put up on quite a few posters of the girls. It kind of makes sense, the time they left the house, next they are on their bikes on a video, IF they were seen between 12:30 and 1:00 it falls in line with the bikes being found at 2:00 with out them. IMO.

 

[Grainne Dhu]

This would of course mean that the biker has now missed TWO sets of children who were possibly in the area at the same time.

How can no one have seen these girls be abducted when we're trying to place all sorts of people in the area at the same time the girls were reportedly there.

:banghead:

For reasons unrelated to Websleuths, I've been reading up on Tilikum, the killer whale who killed his trainer Dawn Brancheau.

It was fascinating to me to read the different eyewitness testimony, given to LE within 1-2 hours of the incident. The eyewitnesses variously reported that Tilikum grabbed her by the arm, by the waist, by the ponytail to drag her into the pool or slipped and fell into the pool without Tilikum being involved until after she was in the pool. Each of the witnesses was an adult who had no reason to prevaricate or exaggerate what they saw. In fact, they sounded mostly eerily calm and I strongly suspect they were all in emotional shock at the point of giving those statements.

I was reminded all over again of how three people can give three significantly different accounts and all of them be honest.

I have long thought that the witness who said he saw the two bikes on the path was honest but mistaken. I think he may have seen two bikes somewhere else or on another day and innocently conflated that with the call on his cell phone. It doesn't mean he's a liar, it just means he made a mistake.

It happens millions of times every day, in fact. My husband leaves to go to the store and I remind him to pick up a specific item. He comes back without it and says he doesn't remember me reminding him; he thinks he just told me he was going to the store and I told him to drive carefully. I'm certain I did remind him but am I really remembering reminding him on a previous trip? Who knows? We both remember what we remember but clearly one of us is wrong. Because it is a difference that makes no difference we don't get upset over it.

Multiply that by the millions of households in the US and it is easy to see that such things happen literally all the time. It isn't surprising when such discrepancies come up in eyewitness testimony, it's just that the stakes are so much higher than a package of bagels.

 

[Grainne Dhu]

Would 2 people fishing have left their bikes haphazardly in the bike trail where someone would have to swerve to miss them? Would make sense to take your bike to as close to the water and where you were going to fish. The bikes should have been close to the water if they belonged to the fishermen. I don't know. The story is just fishy.

Leaving them on the trail? I would hope not but kids are kids. Leaving them close to where you're fishing? Not necessarily. When fishing, you have to figure out where the fish are, so fishers often put their lines in several different places before they settle on the location that seems promising to them. It's a little like the best parts of golf without the annoying little white ball that has to be whacked around. Try casting a couple times in one place, nothing happens. Pick up and stroll along for 50 feet or so, then try casting again. Repeat until a fish steals the bait or time runs out.

 

[Grainne Dhu]

I wonder how many people were at the park during the time the girls were there. Aunt Tammy was convincing when she stated the girls were trained, taught and aware of stranger danger. I don't know if one of the girls would run for help and leave the other if captured; or would be so terrified that would do whatever the "stranger" instructed. Then we look at the recent Kathlynn & D case and are made aware how E-Z it was for MJK to abduct them.

It is very, very common for families to drastically over-estimate how much their children know about "stranger danger." An old workhorse for infotainment shows is doing a segment that shows children whose parents swear equally as convincingly as TB that their children would never be lured by a stranger. And then showing the footage where the child is lured by a stranger (in a set up, of course).

As for one cousin leaving her cousin in the hands of an abductor, well, we know that didn't happen. Neither girl escaped. But if I were with my sister and she were grabbed, even though I am an adult and know better, I know my reaction in such a situation would be to stick with my sister. Even though I KNOW that taking any opportunity to run would be the better choice, emotionally I cannot imagine leaving my sister. I just can't. If such a thing happened, I hope I would take any opportunity to escape but I doubt I would.

I think it would be supremely easy for a perp to control two cousins who were like sisters by just overpowering one of them. That emotional bond would keep the other cousin under total control.

 

[Grainne Dhu]

Imo, if MJK is responsible, he would have used a ruse to finesse L & L in his vehicle, as he did with K & D. I am confident that K & D would have been aware of stranger danger by the age of 15, yet were lured by MJK.
One of the abduction safety tips taught children is to travel in pairs. In both of these abductions this abduction prevention tip may have actually hindered their safety, due to providing a false sense of security, imo.

In the past child abductions/murders seem to be rare, but are becoming more commonplace across the USA. Although many of these abduction/murders are domestic related. Opportunist abductions by child sexual predators as in K & D, Jessica Ridgeway(CO), and possibly L&L are also on the rise, imo..

BBM

Respectfully, can you provide a link?

Everything I've read says just the opposite: that the incidence of child abductions has either held steady or has gone down over the last 50 years, depending on how abduction is defined.

The big difference seems to be in the ease of access to media coverage. Fifty years ago, the only people likely to read a paper like The Waterloo/Cedar Falls Courier would have been people living in the area. If the WCFC submitted a story to the AP or UP and some other paper was having a slow day it might have been read by a few people outside the area.

Only really sensationalistic cases would have gotten national coverage.

Today, anyone with an internet connection anywhere in the world that can read English could follow Elizabeth and Lyric's case in the WCFC.

 

[24Roses]

Happy 10th birthday Elizabeth. Have fun at your party up in Heaven.:cupcake:

 

[Marilynilpa]

Imo, if MJK is responsible, he would have used a ruse to finesse L & L in his vehicle, as he did with K & D. I am confident that K & D would have been aware of stranger danger by the age of 15, yet were lured by MJK.
One of the abduction safety tips taught children is to travel in pairs. In both of these abductions this abduction prevention tip may have actually hindered their safety, due to providing a false sense of security, imo.

In the past child abductions/murders seem to be rare, but are becoming more commonplace across the USA. Although many of these abduction/murders are domestic related. Opportunist abductions by child sexual predators as in K & D, Jessica Ridgeway(CO), and possibly L&L are also on the rise, imo..

Could you please provide a link re: child abductions/murders becoming more commonplace? This goes against the statistics I've read. Thanks.

 

[Foxfire]

BBM

Respectfully, can you provide a link?

Everything I've read says just the opposite: that the incidence of child abductions has either held steady or has gone down over the last 50 years, depending on how abduction is defined.

The big difference seems to be in the ease of access to media coverage. Fifty years ago, the only people likely to read a paper like The Waterloo/Cedar Falls Courier would have been people living in the area. If the WCFC submitted a story to the AP or UP and some other paper was having a slow day it might have been read by a few people outside the area.

Only really sensationalistic cases would have gotten national coverage.

Today, anyone with an internet connection anywhere in the world that can read English could follow Elizabeth and Lyric's case in the WCFC.

Grainne Dhu, most of my comment is my opinion from researching missing/murdered persons and being very involved with the families for over five years.
I am very aware of the tremendous awareness created due to smart phones and social media sites; twitter, facebook, etc.. Facebook wasn't available to the general public til 2007.

You are correct that the FBI NCIC & National Center for Missing & Exploited Children statistics reflect a decrease. With as many as 100,000+ missing persons in the USA and 40,000 inidentified/unclaimed bodies/remains in morgues/NAMUS, across America. How can the stats be remotely accurate?

One of the Cleveland Three was still classified as a runaway for 10 years, up until the day she was rescued..Michelle Knight's name was removed from the FBI's database only 15 months after she vanished. http://abcnews.go.com/US/cleveland-...night-slips-hospital-family/story?id=19147785

Many missing persons are mis-classified as runaways and many others are never reported missing for various reasons. Combine this with State & local LEAs past histories of deep sixing crime statistics. It would be plausible to conclude that the stats and numb3rs are only a guestimate...

http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2009/april/highwayserial_040609

In 2004, an analyst from the OBI detected a crime pattern: the bodies of murdered women were being dumped along the Interstate 40 corridor in OK, TX, AR, and MS(only 8% of US States)
The FBI iniated their Highway Serial Killings initiative 04/2009. ViCAP analysts have created a national matrix of more than 500 murder victims from along or near highways, as well as a list of some 200 potential suspects(Five Years Later)

The victims in these cases are primarily women who are living high-risk, transient lifestyles, often involving substance abuse and prostitution. They’re frequently picked up at truck stops or service stations and sexually assaulted, murdered, and dumped along a highway.
This map shows the more than 500 cases in our Highway Serial Killings Initiative database; the red dots mark where bodies or remains have been found along highways over the past 30 years

RE: The victims in these cases are primarily women who are living high-risk, transient lifestyles, often involving substance abuse and prostitution..

http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/201...y-recovering-victims-of-child-sex-trafficking

Operation Cross Country
Recovering Victims of Child Sex Trafficking

07/29/13
FBI's Innocence Lost National Initiative

Since its creation in 2003, the Innocence Lost National Initiative has resulted in the identification and recovery of more than 2,700 children who have been sexually exploited.

'Grainne Dhu, the FBI simply doesn't know the magnitude of stranger abductions within the missing/murdered epidemic in the USA, imo'..

RE: Today, anyone with an internet connection anywhere in the world that can read English could follow Elizabeth and Lyric's case in the WCFC

Most PCs have high-level programming language translators..