Found Deceased IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #37

[24Roses]

http://www.kwwl.com/story/29418579/...nvestigate-attempted-abduction#at_pco=cfd-1.0

 

[threecrazykids]

I'm not sure on the rules of this so if this is a no-no mods can delete.

Wylma Cook lives literally a block from where this attempted abduction happened.

 

[Grainne Dhu]

I'm not sure on the rules of this so if this is a no-no mods can delete.

Wylma Cook lives literally a block from where this attempted abduction happened.

That is horrifying. Poor Wylma. She lost two grandchildren and then to get such a reminder so close to home... I hope someone is with her tonight.

 

[carbuff]

Neighbor?

 

[threecrazykids]

Let's not forget the raid on the house that Ollipop mentioned here:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...vansdale-13-July-2012-8&p=8199600#post8199600

 

[carbuff]

I had totally forgotten about that.

That's from back when they thought the girls were still alive, too.

 

[otto]

You know, I don't recall a timeline ever having been done

There's a complete timeline that was posted in the discussions - but no idea where anymore. It includes all the details about when FBI were involved and so on. It was originally posted on one of the news sites.

 

[otto]

Here is the timeline link: http://wcfcourier.com/news/evansdal...tml_c8ef29ca-d077-11e1-8635-001a4bcf887a.html

 

[otto]

I looked through some old maps I put together. I think this has the known times, excluding the van sighting near the trees that was reported several months later (on Arbutus). The timeline of 12:15 or 12:23 is due to a question about the time stamp on the video camera. The girls were seen between 12:30 and 1 near the entrance to the park. The lawn watering man seems like a legitimate sighting (moreso because Elizabeth often rode her bike to visit a friend on the next street). The cyclist sighting is more or less excluded by police (don't know why - perhaps different bikes). The cyclist was at the park entrance at 12:28, but he did not see the girls.

 

[otto]

These photos, taken by Ollipop, give a good understanding of the area where the bikes were found, and where the girls were most likely abducted.

 

[otto]

I was thinking about this case yesterday, and what makes sense to me today is that they either met someone in the parking lot near Wilma's house, or Lyric has some sort of contact with someone prior to July 13. It's possible that someone asked the girls to meet at the lake near the drainage gate to go for a boat ride. Elizabeth's purse was found on the lake side of the fence, suggesting to me that the girls went through the gate after parking their bikes. A van was reported near the trees off Arbutus. It's possible that the vehicle owner walked through the trees, lured the girls with some sort of promise, and then took control of them after they reached his vehicle.

The person who did this is familiar with both Maiden Lane (party spot from years ago - before highway was built), and the park where the bodies were found (also a party spot from years ago). That suggests to me that it is someone in their 40s. Alternatively, it is a relative of someone in that age group who is still reminiscing about the parties at those two parks.

 

[carbuff]

The family has always been adamant that the girls didn't and wouldn't go to the lake, the timeline to get there is tight, and the reports from people around the lake are ambiguous. Those are the main reasons why I've always felt that the abduction took place not far from Wylma's house, not long after the video showed them riding. The bikes and purse could have been discarded later -- I kind of think intentionally staged to make it look like the girls were at the lake, but possibly just dumped a distance from the crime scene(s).

 

[Squeeze]

Let's not forget the raid on the house that Ollipop mentioned here:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...vansdale-13-July-2012-8&p=8199600#post8199600

I guess I don't remember that at all. I never heard of them searching that area.

Sent from my SCH-R970 using Tapatalk

 

[Yvettea]

The family has always been adamant that the girls didn't and wouldn't go to the lake, the timeline to get there is tight, and the reports from people around the lake are ambiguous. Those are the main reasons why I've always felt that the abduction took place not far from Wylma's house, not long after the video showed them riding. The bikes and purse could have been discarded later -- I kind of think intentionally staged to make it look like the girls were at the lake, but possibly just dumped a distance from the crime scene(s).

I can't remember, would the direction they were riding have taken them to the lake? It's been a long time but it seems to me there would have been some difficulty or obstacle getting from their grandmothers to the lake.

 

[Grainne Dhu]

I can't remember, would the direction they were riding have taken them to the lake? It's been a long time but it seems to me there would have been some difficulty or obstacle getting from their grandmothers to the lake.

From where they were caught on surveillance video? Either direction would take them to the lake from that street (which is in front of the Collins' house, not Wylma's house). They were riding perpendicular to any route leading to the lake but they were in the city, so all they would have had to do was turn south towards the lake when they got to a street corner. There would have been the ordinary sort of obstacles of street lights and stop signs but I think an 8 year old and 10 year old would be capable of navigating them.

The problems with the girls being at the lake, so far as I can see:

1) Both families adamant that the girls would never have ridden their bikes so far away without permission;

2) Unclear whether the girls knew how to get to the lake and lack of obvious motive to go there;

3) Tight time frame, particularly if you believe the cyclist's report of avoiding the bicycles a minute or two before 12:40 pm; and

4) Lack of credible witnesses who saw the girls at any point after they were caught on surveillance video.

Whether the girls were abducted from Meyer's Lake or not, it is clear that whoever abducted them was familiar with the one spot around the lake that was not easy to see from a distance. You actually had to be on the bike path and turn the corner in order to see that one little stretch where the bicycles were found, due to the fences and lush summer vegetation in the area.

To me, that speaks of more familiarity than Seven Bridges. I think anyone with bad intent could find Seven Bridges if they had enough time and gas money to keep cruising the area. That one little spot at Meyer's Lake, though, you just about had to have been there to know it was there.

 

[Yvettea]

From where they were caught on surveillance video? Either direction would take them to the lake from that street (which is in front of the Collins' house, not Wylma's house). They were riding perpendicular to any route leading to the lake but they were in the city, so all they would have had to do was turn south towards the lake when they got to a street corner. There would have been the ordinary sort of obstacles of street lights and stop signs but I think an 8 year old and 10 year old would be capable of navigating them.

The problems with the girls being at the lake, so far as I can see:

1) Both families adamant that the girls would never have ridden their bikes so far away without permission;

2) Unclear whether the girls knew how to get to the lake and lack of obvious motive to go there;

3) Tight time frame, particularly if you believe the cyclist's report of avoiding the bicycles a minute or two before 12:40 pm; and

4) Lack of credible witnesses who saw the girls at any point after they were caught on surveillance video.

Whether the girls were abducted from Meyer's Lake or not, it is clear that whoever abducted them was familiar with the one spot around the lake that was not easy to see from a distance. You actually had to be on the bike path and turn the corner in order to see that one little stretch where the bicycles were found, due to the fences and lush summer vegetation in the area.

To me, that speaks of more familiarity than Seven Bridges. I think anyone with bad intent could find Seven Bridges if they had enough time and gas money to keep cruising the area. That one little spot at Meyer's Lake, though, you just about had to have been there to know it was there.

You make a compelling argument. I guess it's more likely the bikes and the purse were dumped there to take to take attention away from the real crime scene.

 

[otto]

From where they were caught on surveillance video? Either direction would take them to the lake from that street (which is in front of the Collins' house, not Wylma's house). They were riding perpendicular to any route leading to the lake but they were in the city, so all they would have had to do was turn south towards the lake when they got to a street corner. There would have been the ordinary sort of obstacles of street lights and stop signs but I think an 8 year old and 10 year old would be capable of navigating them.

The problems with the girls being at the lake, so far as I can see:

1) Both families adamant that the girls would never have ridden their bikes so far away without permission;

2) Unclear whether the girls knew how to get to the lake and lack of obvious motive to go there;

3) Tight time frame, particularly if you believe the cyclist's report of avoiding the bicycles a minute or two before 12:40 pm; and

4) Lack of credible witnesses who saw the girls at any point after they were caught on surveillance video.

Whether the girls were abducted from Meyer's Lake or not, it is clear that whoever abducted them was familiar with the one spot around the lake that was not easy to see from a distance. You actually had to be on the bike path and turn the corner in order to see that one little stretch where the bicycles were found, due to the fences and lush summer vegetation in the area.

To me, that speaks of more familiarity than Seven Bridges. I think anyone with bad intent could find Seven Bridges if they had enough time and gas money to keep cruising the area. That one little spot at Meyer's Lake, though, you just about had to have been there to know it was there.

Elizabeth had visited a friend that lived next to the lake several times (a block away from Lake), and she got there by bike. I'm pretty sure I recall that her mom said that Elizabeth always called when she arrived. I think the family is in denial when they claim that the girls would not ride their bikes to the lake on a hot summer day.

The cyclist called his daughter from the parking lot at 12:30, and reportedly saw the bikes before that phone call. A witness saw the girls at the entrance to the park between 12:30 and 1PM. That suggests that although the cyclist may have seen two bikes, the bikes did not belong to the girls. There's a reason that police have excluded the cyclist's sighting of the bikes, even if we are unsure of the reason. Perhaps we should accept what the police have learned through their investigation and accept that the cyclist, and his experience with two bikes, have nothing to do with the case.

After excluding the cyclist, the timeline works. The girls were seen at the entrance to the park between 12:30 and 1PM. The man that lives on the corner of Lake Ave saw them between 1 and 2. The bikes were found at the drainage gate at 4PM. Someone saw an odd vehicle near Maiden Lane that afternoon.

 

[otto]

You make a compelling argument. I guess it's more likely the bikes and the purse were dumped there to take to take attention away from the real crime scene.

The crime scene is at the drainage gate. The girls were seen at various locations between Wilma's house and the lake between 12:30 and 2PM. It's pretty much impossible that they were on video near Wilma's house at 12:23 and at the opposite end of the lake at 12:28.

 

[gregjrichards]

It is very sad to see this case in the cold case section I hoped and prayed we would never would get to this point. Where is the monster(s) that did this? Thanks for keeping the discussion going through despite no new developments.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

SBM

I have felt since very close to the beginning that the perp is a stranger or, at most, very distant acquaintance whose name would not necessarily be known to either family (for example, someone that worked at a store one or both families used).

On WS, there were posters who felt that it would be too difficult for one perp to control two young girls but I have always felt that it would be easier. Just get one girl under physical control and the other would go right along out of terror, love and loyalty to her cousin. There were also several posts on WS by people who had been accosted by a stranger with a weapon as children and, as I recall, every single one of those posters were compliant out of terror. Didn't matter if they had been previously instructed to run or not.

ITA! I think the very same thing happened to the four victims in the Washington, DC case. Wint contained them all by fear. All he had to do is grab ONE and threaten to harm them and the others would comply trying to do everything possible to save all of their lives. Imo, Wint used little Philip as a way to control the three adults in the home.

And I think that is what happened in this case. These little girls were close and loved each other and would be protective of one another.

Even when Joseph Duncan entered the Greone home alone he was able to get two large adults and one large teenager to comply to his demands and they allowed him to tie them up. I think he controlled them all by threatening to kill Shasta and Dylan if they didn't do what he said do. It is sad that innocent victims do everything the murderer demands and is still brutally murdered.

I think this predator lured these two naïve girls into getting in their vehicle. One trapped he had full control over them and most likely threatened to murder one of them if the other one did not do exactly as he said. Often at first these type of predators comes across as very friendly and non threatening.

I also agree with Carbuff, this predator didn't even have to have a weapon in order to do this.

IMO