Found Deceased IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #37

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  • #341
Lengthy link , lots of detail.
rbbm.
http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/pubs/omc-ned/abd-rapt-eng.htm

"Four categories of abductors have been classified by the United States' Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI). These are as follows:

Paedophiles – The people in this category constitute the single largest number of child abductors. Paedophiles seem to identify with children better than with adults which is the reason why they are able to seduce/lure children easily. They appear to understand the likes and dislikes of children and show a genuine concern for their well-being.
Profiteers – This is an individual who is a criminal exploiter who sells children to pornographers or adoption rings, mostly in the black-market industry.
Serial Killers – The actions of these individuals are methodical and ritualized, with power, dominance, and control as the most frequent motivator.
Childless Psychotics – These individuals tend to abduct children when there are unable to have children of their own or have lost a child and seek another to fill its place (Tedisco & Paludi, 1996).

Abductors are generally male and they tend to target victims within their own ethnic group. Their behavioural patterns seem to be dependent upon gender, motivation, and relationship to the victim. To explain further, female offenders rarely abduct for sexual gratification, or profit, but more for emotional satisfaction.

The majority of child abductors who murder their victims have a history of violence. The United States missing children homicide investigative study by Hanfland et al, (1997) revealed that 60% had prior arrests for violent crimes. Almost two-thirds of the killers who were strangers to the victims had committed prior crimes against children, whereas 41% of the child abduction killers who were friends and acquaintances of the victim had committed crimes against other children.

Hanfland et al, (1997) stated that when the child is abducted and murdered, "contrary to the popular belief, child killers are not aged perverts or dirty old men." The abductor's average age is around 27 years and much younger than the average killer. They are predominately unmarried (85%), half of them live alone or with their parents, half are unemployed, they have a history of sexual, alcohol, drug and mental problems, two thirds have been arrested for violent crimes with slightly half of these prior crimes against children, and many move or change residence often"
 
  • #342
I'm not going to comment on what I think about certain people who were dismissed too easily as suspects, because I've been TO'd for it twice in the past and I have learned my lesson.
 
  • #343
I'm not going to comment on what I think about certain people who were dismissed too easily as suspects, because I've been TO'd for it twice in the past and I have learned my lesson.

I agree with you 100%. I (for whatever reason) keep in the back of my mind that LE frequently states people are "not considered suspects" for multiple reasons - even when those same people end up being arrested for the crime they were apparently "cleared" of.

There were plenty of actions by LE that could lead readers/followers of this case to believe they were/are looking at specific people with more than just a side eye. I mentioned those above in this thread (regarding Dan and Misty). Yet they state they weren't considered suspects.

I just find the circumstances of their abduction so bizarre, and yet so precise it's almost unbelievable. The fact that the girls were at that most secluded part of the trail at that very moment that someone- no wait...not just someone, a sexual predator - just happened to be sitting in waiting for someone to show up, is almost unfathomable. What are the odds?!

Does it happen? Absolutely! We see it happen almost daily right here on WS.

But the odds of a predator hitting the jackpot with these two girls, whose families backgrounds are more than questionable, just seem higher than millions to one, IMO. I've said it before - this person couldn't have picked a better set of children to do this to. With all the history this family has with drugs, violence, guns (JC), etc...this killer really couldn't have gotten luckier. Their families gave LE enough fodder to sift through that they had to be spinning with all of the potential reasons these kids could have been taken.

We aren't able to discuss specific family members being suspects - but I won't be shocked if/when an arrest is made there is a familial connection of some sort.
 
  • #344
I would be shocked if/when an arrest is made if the perp is a complete stranger...I don't believe this was random at all
 
  • #345
I would be shocked if/when an arrest is made if the perp is a complete stranger...I don't believe this was random at all

Exactly what I was trying to say - I just have a habit of blabbering on. :laughing:
 
  • #346
Just for the record, I am on the other side of the fence.
I do believe the perp was a stranger to the girls.
 
  • #347
Just for the record, I am on the other side of the fence.
I do believe the perp was a stranger to the girls.

Do you believe the perp is a stranger to the entire family as well? Or just someone the girls wouldn't recognize/know?

:thinking:
 
  • #348
It's still is nagging at me that they went missing the day after Dan's plea date. Could someone have been mixed up on the date, maybe under the influence of something?

What if Lyric was really the only target but was taken with Lizzy in her neighborhood to make it look less obvious.
 
  • #349
I can never find this thread, I didn't think to check cold cases, I'm not subscribed to it (thought I already was and it was just dead).

I really could go any direction with this case on who the perp is, but I do find the entire case mind boggling.

We have two girls who pour themselves a glass of juice, walk out the door for a bike ride and end up dead 22 miles away from their bikes/home.
 
  • #350
Do you believe the perp is a stranger to the entire family as well? Or just someone the girls wouldn't recognize/know?

:thinking:

Yes, I do. I think the parents and families are innocent and have no idea who may have taken the girls. Even though their circumstances in life (health, drugs or separation) just clouded the case, the life they led may have spurred the girls to be more adventurous in doing things on their own.
 
  • #351
I can never find this thread, I didn't think to check cold cases, I'm not subscribed to it (thought I already was and it was just dead).

I really could go any direction with this case on who the perp is, but I do find the entire case mind boggling.

We have two girls who pour themselves a glass of juice, walk out the door for a bike ride and end up dead 22 miles away from their bikes/home.

Thanks to your post, you are subscribed now. I didn't know about the subscribed list until recently but I love it now.

Until then, I started bookmarking most cases so I could keep up with them. I just counted and I have 39 cases bookmarked, some of which I just follow and don't post in. I would click on each bookmark and see if there were any new posts. Ever so often I go in and delete the bookmarks for the cases that are solved. It's almost like having a full time job working in WS. LOL
 
  • #352
Just for the record, I am on the other side of the fence.
I do believe the perp was a stranger to the girls.
I'm with you on this one watcher. However, I'm not 100% sure it was a complete stranger.
I've always felt that maybe this was a local guy who was younger in his 20's or so that was out rabbit hunting or something and ran into a opratunity to molest the girls and had to kill them at that point. So a stranger as in he wasn't firends with the family. Yet the girls could point him out around town. Or even if they didn't know him before they could eventually run into him around town.
This screams crime of opportunity to me.
 
  • #353
I'm with you on this one watcher. However, I'm not 100% sure it was a complete stranger.
I've always felt that maybe this was a local guy who was younger in his 20's or so that was out rabbit hunting or something and ran into a opratunity to molest the girls and had to kill them at that point. So a stranger as in he wasn't firends with the family. Yet the girls could point him out around town. Or even if they didn't know him before they could eventually run into him around town.
This screams crime of opportunity to me.

Ditto, thinking this is someone who may have noticed the girls riding around on their bikes, or coming and going from the house, or maybe seen them at a store, park, swimming pool ect.
Happened to be around, or was plain old watching them for a while planning, saw an opening and took it.

In my mind's eye, imagining one of two types of perp, a tall, thin, bearded truck driver/ worker/ mover, ex biker type, behind the buildings where the girls were spotted on cctv, or a young dark-haired smallish partying male, tricking them into walking along the shoreline.

imo, pure speculation, ect.
 
  • #354
Ditto, thinking this is someone who may have noticed the girls riding around on their bikes, or coming and going from the house, or maybe seen them at a store, park, swimming pool ect.
Happened to be around, or was plain old watching them for a while planning, saw an opening and took it.

In my mind's eye, imagining one of two types of perp, a tall, thin, bearded truck driver/ worker/ mover, ex biker type, behind the buildings where the girls were spotted on cctv, or a young dark-haired smallish partying male, tricking them into walking along the shoreline.

imo, pure speculation, ect.
I always think of Wally when I think of this case.
I use to bartend in a very very small town about an hour SE of where the girls were murdered. On the Wisconsin side of the Mississippi. I remember their missing posters all over our town that summer.
Anyways, Wally was an off beat kid who always came in to play the machines with his grandpa during the day and only drank grape soda. Wally was about 20-23ish and was slow but not stupid if that makes sense. Wally was just a creep type. I was not from this town and didn't know who Wally was. But rummors got told to me that he has lived with his grandpa sinse he was 16 for touching his little sisters. He wasn't on the sex offenders list because he was 16 when he did the crime. Rummor also had it that he was mean to his grandpa and had shoved him and stuff.
Any time he wanst at the bar. He would be out rabbit-squirrel hunting year round. Needless to say I dont think dating is in Wallys future. I think he might not necessarily be a paedophile but rather had to act apond his sisters cause he just isn't someone someone would date. And that's what I always think of when I think of these two girls. Not that Wally did anything but its someone like Wally from around town. Maybe even a diffrent smaller town not to far away. Idk its just what I've always pictured.
 
  • #355
Sad, but I think we all know a Wally or two...

JC and GF OD'ing right after was very suspicious to me at first and then you kind of realize the mindset of the people who did this, and it struck me that of course they would OD. It doesn't take much to convince a user, or a user to convince themselves to do a little more this time because of the extra stress of two children you're related to being abducted.

It bothers me that some people were cleared so quickly because of who they knew and who they were friends with... and because their home was so much cleaner than the other's home that the perp couldn't have come from their side of the tracks, but just do not open up any closet doors in their house because skeletons are likely to tumble out. Or even a gold Camaro... Yeah! That gold Camaro really, really bugs me.

LE says 7-Bridges is the key. It's someone who hunts/fishes/camps. Someone who knows how to lay low when things get hot, or get out of town. George Wyeth State park would fit in there too. It's bothering me that we still don't have answers regarding the assault at George Wyeth park!
 
  • #356
Noting, just in case visitors from far away, regularly visit Iowa.
That poor girl and her mom, terrifying!

http://www.kenoradailyminerandnews....xually-abused-girl-travelling-alone-on-flight
rbbm.
"DES MOINES, Iowa -- The parents of a girl who reported being inappropriately touched by a man while flying alone from New York to Iowa have sued the man and American Airlines, saying the airline failed to protect the girl.

Muhammad Asif Chaudhry, 57, was arrested after the July flight on charges including engaging in sexual contact with a victim between the ages of 12 and 16. The Pakistani citizen, who has denied the accusations, has since been released on bond.

The lawsuit alleges that Chaudhry moved to an open seat beside the girl. The girl texted her mother, who had just arrived at work in Iowa, saying she was woken up by a man inappropriately touching her with his foot and later his hand.

"I can't move cause the seat belt sign is on and I want to get away," the girl said in texts turned over the FBI, according to the lawsuit. She began another text, "Mommy, I'm scared...," and said a man tried to touch her genitals. The family's attorney, Brett Beatty, said the mother was so stunned by the texts that she fainted."
 
  • #357
I always think of Wally when I think of this case.
I use to bartend in a very very small town about an hour SE of where the girls were murdered. On the Wisconsin side of the Mississippi. I remember their missing posters all over our town that summer.
Anyways, Wally was an off beat kid who always came in to play the machines with his grandpa during the day and only drank grape soda. Wally was about 20-23ish and was slow but not stupid if that makes sense. Wally was just a creep type. I was not from this town and didn't know who Wally was. But rummors got told to me that he has lived with his grandpa sinse he was 16 for touching his little sisters. He wasn't on the sex offenders list because he was 16 when he did the crime. Rummor also had it that he was mean to his grandpa and had shoved him and stuff.
Any time he wanst at the bar. He would be out rabbit-squirrel hunting year round. Needless to say I dont think dating is in Wallys future. I think he might not necessarily be a paedophile but rather had to act apond his sisters cause he just isn't someone someone would date. And that's what I always think of when I think of these two girls. Not that Wally did anything but its someone like Wally from around town. Maybe even a diffrent smaller town not to far away. Idk its just what I've always pictured.

What a chilling description. Made my hair stand up because I met a few Wally's over the years myself. I used to work in a middle school and the teachers and I used to discuss which of the creepy kids, if any, were going to end up abusing others. Sadly there were a few that scared us.

My daughter had a friend that I liked--but I wouldn't let her go to her friends house because he r older stepbrother was kind of 'Wally like.' He didnt have any friends, he was always hanging around and he used to want to hang with his sister and her friends, who were 5 yrs younger. It creeped me out. One time when my girl was 10, and she and her friends were riding bikes down to the park and the creek, she told me he went with them. That was the end of her visits over there after school. His stepmom said to me that she thought it was nice that he wanted to 'look out' for them. But I didnt get that feeling from him at all. My son was his age but NO WAY that he was going to spend the afternoon bike riding with 4 annoying 10 yr old girls.

Later on , at 20, he did end up being in jail but for armed robbery and drugs, not sex offenses.
 
  • #358
rsbm

We have two girls who pour themselves a glass of juice, walk out the door for a bike ride and end up dead 22 miles away from their bikes/home.

Fwiw, there is that "magic number" again IMO, 22 miles. That distance seems to have come up in other cases, iirc/jmo...I'm interested to see which ones for comparison. If I get some free time I might try to take a look at this.

I know I always post this article in many cases, and have likely already posted it here, but I'd like to bring it forward for anyone who might have missed it and might be interested in reading it. It's an article about "Awareness Space" and Jessica Ridgeway, written shortly after her murder, and before her killer, ARS, was identified and apprehended.

*ARS turned out to be a 17 year old neighbor and stranger.

Jessica Ridgeway: Killer’s ‘awareness space’ may lead to clues
By Jefferson Dodge and Joel Dye
Thursday, October 18, 2012
http://www.boulderweekly.com/articl...ss-lsawareness-spacers-may-lead-to-clues.html
 
  • #359
Fwiw, there is that "magic number" again IMO, 22 miles. That distance seems to have come up in other cases, iirc/jmo...I'm interested to see which ones for comparison. If I get some free time I might try to take a look at this.

I know I always post this article in many cases, and have likely already posted it here, but I'd like to bring it forward for anyone who might have missed it and might be interested in reading it. It's an article about "Awareness Space" and Jessica Ridgeway, written shortly after her murder, and before her killer, ARS, was identified and apprehended.

*ARS turned out to be a 17 year old neighbor and stranger.

Jessica Ridgeway: Killer’s ‘awareness space’ may lead to clues
By Jefferson Dodge and Joel Dye
Thursday, October 18, 2012
http://www.boulderweekly.com/articl...ss-lsawareness-spacers-may-lead-to-clues.html

I can see how 22 miles would make sense. It might feel far enough away to not be in one's backyard, but not too far to have to drive with the evidence in the car. maybe 20 to 30 minutes is the most one wants to chance being in the car with a body or two.
 
  • #360
I just can't get past Klunder...but I guess I'll have to since he's been ruled out...we do know of course there are often different predators operating in the same area, for example RAT and JLM, but its the 2 simultaneous female child victims, and the proximity that gets me...jmo.

Also, going way back, iirc Klunder had an RSO fishing buddy and Facebook friend that lived on the same street as the girls, or something like that...?
 
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