IA IA - Johnny Gosch, 12, W Des Moines, 5 Sept 1982 - What happened? - #1

[Mabel]

Thanks, LP. I hadn't read far enough into the thread before I jumped the gun and posted. I should have known that nothing gets past the posters here.

 

[LovelyPigeon]

Mabel, isn't it great that what one poster might miss, another one or two pick up, and we all get to share the information!

 

[michelle]

I think that Johnny Gosch is long dead, and his poor mother has been exploited all these years. There was another case where a daughter was missing for years. I can't remember her name, but the mother was led to believe that she was abducted by a motorcycle gang. She traveled many places trying to find her "missing" daughter. Eventually, maybe 20+ years later, I think the remains of her daughter were found. She had been dead all of this time.

Nan that was Amy Billig, I was just thinking about her the other day. A sad case. http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/b/billig_amy.html She has never been found and the Mom died last year of a heart attack.

 

[Marie]

Nan that was Amy Billig, I was just thinking about her the other day. A sad case. http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/b/billig_amy.html She has never been found and the Mom died last year of a heart attack.

I knew Amy had never been found but I didn't know about her mom's death last year. I'm hope she's with her daughter now, and finally at peace.

 

[michelle]

I knew Amy had never been found but I didn't know about her mom's death last year. I'm hope she's with her daughter now, and finally at peace.

I hope so too. I cannot imagine what that poor woman went through.

 

[nanandjim]

Nan that was Amy Billig, I was just thinking about her the other day. A sad case. http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/b/billig_amy.html She has never been found and the Mom died last year of a heart attack.

Thanks, Michelle. I thought that her remains had been found. Such a sad, sad case, especially for her Mom.

 

[BillyGoatGruff]

So, anyone wonder why a kidnapper would buy Johnny a whole new outfit? Because that appears it would have been the case -- the kid in the white jeans, I mean. There's the one photo of (allegedly) Johnny in sweats, then he's in jeans.

In both, he's wearing socks.



From the Doe Network listing on Johnny:

Clothing: A white sweatshirt with Kim's Academy imprinted on the back, warm-up pants and blue rubber thong sandals.



​

Johnny was wearing socks with thong sandals in early September, when it would have likely still been warm, even in Iowa?


I think, taken on their own merits, there is no doubt these photos are really troubling. But I have some problems with them surfacing now, and the source. Have any of you read up much on what Noreen's said in the past?

I think the timing of reports about these photos is really suspicious. But after the last couple of weeks of clamoring about the useless little weirdo, John Mark Karr, I'm probably overly-skeptical about "stunning new developments" in stories like these.

Steve

edited to add: I double-checked -- okay, the kid in the dark sweats is barefoot... lending credence to the idea that that particular photo could really be of Johnny Gosch. I still want to know why the kid Noreen says is Johnny in the other photo is wearing an entirely different set of clothing. I have a hard time making sense out of that.

The clothes these kids are wearing all look like they could have been dug out of Goodwill box, so I'm not sure you can read anything into a kidnapper buying them new wardrobes. If someone was keeping a stable of stolen boys to use in and then dispose of, he could very well simply be dressing them in the clothes of previous dead children.

What convinces me that it's not a cut and paste job is that the boys are all physically touching/overlapping one another. I recall a report that the originals were Polaroids, which makes the chance of photo rigging less than zero.

 

[BillyGoatGruff]

I enjlarged the photo of the three boys. I agree with Beyond belief that the child on the right maybe a girl. Seems he/she has busy hair when the picture is rotated. I also noticed this childs arms seem to be tied with thoes plastic disposable handcuff things that police offers use. This is very intresting becuase to my understand that is an item only available to Law enforcement and not something easier for a hoaxer to get. This would also be distrubingly consitant with Ms. Gosch's belief that law enforcment and government are involved with her sons dissapearnce. Does anyone know if these plastic handcuff ties were being used back in the early 80's?

mjak

They could also be industrial plastic ties used for freight shipping. I used to work in a warehouse and we used those things to strap down items on pallets. They look identical to plastic handcuffs, and the principle is basically the same. You fasten them shut with what looks like an oversized old-timey label maker.

 

[Trocaria]

The clothes these kids are wearing all look like they could have been dug out of Goodwill box, so I'm not sure you can read anything into a kidnapper buying them new wardrobes. If someone was keeping a stable of stolen boys to use in and then dispose of, he could very well simply be dressing them in the clothes of previous dead children.

What convinces me that it's not a cut and paste job is that the boys are all physically touching/overlapping one another. I recall a report that the originals were Polaroids, which makes the chance of photo rigging less than zero.

This could be part of the brain washing from minute one: stripping the kidnapped of the clothes they arrived in and putting them in someone else's clothes.
This would be a way to begin stripping them of their past, their idenity. Not unlike the old ways of the nunnery when the novice is stripped of her worldly clothes and garbbed in the first of many habits she will wear in reglious life.

They may even tell the child that this belonged to someone that was murdered just to mess with them even more.

I have seen the photo of the boy alone and I must tell you, it sure looks like Johnny. I pray that these photos may finally break this case in a new way.

 

[Trocaria]

Steve Huff has a good analysis of the photo and story on his blog - crimeblog.us

Uh, yeah.
Like I commented on another thread, I do not think it strange that the kidnapper would have removed the clothing Gosch had on and put him in some one else's clothes. This would be part of the process of breaking apart his sense of self.

And just for the sake of fashion, I DO recall braided leather belts as being in style in the early 80's. I had one, it had come on a pair of shorts. They were seen on both men and women.

 

[Janet]

There going to talk about this case right now on Fox news "The Line Up"

 

[txsvicki]

I commented on the other thread about the beige bed quilt in the pic. I bought some quilts just like that last year at Walmart. I'm not sure that I can see the resemblance between the boy alone in the pic and the boy on the far right of the other three. I can't tell that the lone boy even looks like Johnny Gosh. Would he have been awhile after his abduction when the lone pic was taken? The boy in that pic looks so skinny and the hair may have grown out some. Very disturbing to look at those pics. The possible pic of Tara Calico pic was awful too.

 

[FourthBase]

Hello, first time poster.
Just wanted to add some sleuthing that I posted on another message board:

Can anyone identify the shirts the two on the right are wearing? I can't make out the design/logo of the middle one, but maybe someone else can.

The one on the right looks like a kid's replica of an NFL jersey, but it could also be a college team jersey, or finally it could be a generic KMart-type jersey with no connection to an actual team or player. If it IS supposed to be an NFL or NCAA replica (NFL would be more likely I think?), then #15 would be the number of a quarterback. There are only so many teams with that color scheme (looks like a typical reddish-orangish/blueish/white), and one can further narrow the options by what quarterbacks on those teams wore #15.

NFL teams (circa late 70's/early 80's) with that color scheme:
Bills, Giants, Patriots, Bears, Oilers...maybe the Falcons?

That's about as far as my football knowledge will take that lead...if anyone knows a football junkie, maybe you could show the photo (or maybe just the jersey part?) and get a better guess.

Well, like I said earlier: Gosch was kidnapped with certain clothing on and that jersey could not belong to him. The kidnappers must have either had that shirt already in their possession or bought it for him to wear. If it was already in their possession, then presumably it must have belonged to a previous kidnapped child, which is a creepy thought. If they bought it for him, then it was either purchased in a second hand store (in which case it could be a little older, maybe from the mid or late 70's?) or purchased new.

Unlike today's market in which every team sells a jersey of even its moderately good players and one can even buy a custom jersey for a scrub, back then I'm assuming that the only NFL replica jerseys available for sale were for star players. Like you implied, there does not seem to be a star quarterback from that era who played for a team with that color scheme and wore that number.

As far as the sleeve stripe: For a kid's cheap replica, the jersey design often takes liberties with the official design to make it more appealing to kids, so the official NFL jersey may not have that same sleeve design.

With that said: I'm leaning toward it being either a college jersey cheap replica, a Pop Warner league jersey, or a generic KMart-type football jersey. I don't follow college football at all, so I can't say whether it's that or not. If it's a generic jersey, it should be easy enough to find out the "make and model" since those kind of jerseys are usually mass produced with a limited color variety and only one number, i.e., 1000 #15 jerseys but not any other number. If it's a Pop Warner jersey, then that probably means that some other kid once owned and wore it -- acquired either in a second hand store, or fresh from a local youth league jersey designer/manufacturer...or from a previous kidnapped kid.

Since that picture is the one deseminated the most in yesterday's stories I'd hope that someone somewhere recognizes it as being a generic jersey once sold in department stores, or their favorite player's jersey, or their favorite team's jersey, or just simply their own.

 

[Lacyanna]

I just saw Noreen on Fox news. This must be posted somewhere else already-and I've just not seen it.

She said that when she received the pictures (when asked if she went straight to the police)-that she went on a planned trip and waited till she got back to follow-up on them And even then-she had "her people" check the pictures first.

Umm. ???? I don't get it. Wow!

Did anyone else see this?

Peace,

Lacyanna

 

[FourthBase]

The trip to see family was a little weird...
But having "her people" check the photos is not weird.

 

[Lacyanna]

I guess if I really think about what she has been doing all these years-and what her beliefs are on what happened-then maybe she would not be stunned about the photo. Perhaps she already thinks this is a huge conspiracy and it caused her to be secretive rather than just running to the police with it.

Having read some previous posts-it seems she really has a group of "her people" that strongly support her and her belief that her son is/was alive.

My heart breaks either way-either she has fallen prey to some pretty "out there" ideas, or indeed her son was taken to be part of some evil group. She surely doesn't win either way-does she?

Sigh~

 

[FourthBase]

From another poster on that other forum, re: the mark on the arm...

I know little about the Gosch story, so I can't weigh in on that but I can say a little bit about this branding thing based on my 17 years as a body modification professional.

First, the mother claims her son was branded shortly after his kidnapping, and is seen in the photos wearing the same jogging pants he was last seen in. If this is the case, he would have had to have worn them for several months for this to possible due to the fact that the branding process takes months to heal, with strong chances of infection under even the best of aftercare scenarios. If what we are seeing is a brand, it would have been EXTREMELY red all around with the inside(the actual brand) a dull white(fat cells below the cutaneous tissue). So here's what we should have seen but didn't:

A - Extreme redness around the branded area accompanied by swelling. This would cause a sheen in the skin due to the swelling drawing the skin tight making for a more reflective surface, and that's without:

B - Topical salve administered to prevent infection in the burned tissue. Failure to administrate a topical would almost guarantee infection, and if staph got in there, forget about it. The salve would also create a very noticeable sheen in the area due to light scattering off a petroleum-based cream.

c - Not bright, but very noticeable white/yellow in the actual brand. On each side of a burned line of skin there would also be thin but darkened areas that are the actul edges of the burned tissue. When a brand is administered, the skin is literally split by the branding object, which is why you'd see a thin dark line on both sides.
_____________________

Based on that, either the mother's timing is significantly off, or what's on his arm is not a brand at all, which is what I'm inclined to believe. Even if he wore the jogging pants for months(or just had them on that day as one of a few changes of clothes, the healing tissue would have a significant lack of melanin, and in these pictures, we see the exact opposite.

It looks to me like a sharpie marker was used to write something on his arm. I use them every day for initial sketching and they have a tendancy to be semi-permanent on skin, even after washing.

Yet, what if it were a "light" branding?
Is there a way to brand without the effects you described?
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Possible, but not likely. The brand may have been applied light enough not to sear the cutaneous down to the level of fat cells, but that would still leave heavy redness locally and would have required some very serious precision work, and branding's a messy business that deifies precision completely. I've seen highly experienced individuals that more often than not went too deep rather than not deep enough. The branding scene is an open one where people freely share info in the hopes of improving the technique. Back when this picture was taken, if we're looking at a real brand it was probably done with a metal coat hanger, and it would have been applied at least 4-6 months before this picture was taken.

If there's other pictures I'd be willing to look at them.

What if they're freeze brands depicted? At least for cattle, it's a much less traumatic event.
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Interesting, but I can't comment on this procedure as I've never seen it achieved on human skin. Freeze branding isn't employed by anyone I've known, but that doesn't mean it hasn't been tried before by any means.

 

[txsvicki]

I haven't seen any posts yet mentioning the fact that the pic of the lone boy is much skinnier that the boy on the far right in the other pic. In fact, the boy looks like he has no muscle tone in his arms or legs at all. The boy actually looks very unhealthy. Surely it would be after having lost some weight if it is Johnny Gosch?

 

[Marie]

The article explains who's involved with the photos, how it all transpired and what's happening now. http://desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060901/NEWS10/609010385/1001/NIE

 

[FourthBase]

I haven't seen any posts yet mentioning the fact that the pic of the lone boy is much skinnier that the boy on the far right in the other pic. In fact, the boy looks like he has no muscle tone in his arms or legs at all. The boy actually looks very unhealthy. Surely it would be after having lost some weight if it is Johnny Gosch?

The b&w photo is the one purported to be the one taken soon after the abduction, so if Gosch was starved or anything it would be the other way around.

I don't see that the lone boy is skinnier. That is, I don't see less body fat on the lone boy. In fact, I see a pronounced baby-fat fold above the waist. I think the juxtaposition of a reddish-orange-hued color photo and a b&w photo exaggerates things, makes one look malnourished and the other chubby. Things like lighting, contrast, saturation can do that to photos.

OTOH, the faces do seem markedly different to me.
The #15 boy has a seeming moon face with a stubby nose.
The lone b&w boy has a longish-seeming face with a thinner longer nose.
But then again, what will being bound and gagged do to one's facial features?
If one has trouble breathing, the face might become more flushed & full.
And if one was gagged more or less severely, it could alter a face, etc.

I'm assuming that the LE agencies have the tech to match faces.
In the event that the LE is, say, corrupt...
Then that tech would be available elsewhere.
Point is, we need not depend on Noreen's judgment, even if we trust it.