IA - Mollie Tibbetts, 20, Poweshiek County, 19 Jul 2018 *Arrest* #42

[MsBetsy]

Stalking happens more than one knows and comes in many forms.
MT was active on social media, and it would of been one method he could of used to track her.
Next would be anyone close to her such as her bf, family, & close friends.

Very good point. People brought that up before and I completely forgot about that. Apparently he could have gotten alot of information from SM, including where she was and when.

 

[MistyWaters]

I do think we will come to find he “watched” Mollie and others from afar, if stories are true, he even approached some and contacted some on SM.

I think at the very least there could be a pattern of admiring from distance and approaching others

My bet is the DA will lay that all out with video and testimony

A couple threads back was quite a lengthy discussion regarding Brooklyn and area and it’s lack of social events. As in most smaller communities, that’s typical and therefore opportunities for two strangers to meet at social functions are very limited.

So in typical situations, male/female or vice versa, admiring someone from a distance and then one or another making the first move to find out if the attraction is reciprocated is the start of a great many relationships as well.

So my point is a total stranger striking up a casual conversation in smaller communities isn’t viewed with quite as much suspicion or distrust as it might in large urban centres. So I’m not so sure that sort of behaviour is necessarily evidence indicating murder intent.

If this same scenario was at all involved, what caused CR to fly into a violent rage is just really bizarre with a horribly tragic outcome.

 

[TL4S]

Here's another attempt at cell phone pinging as related to the 470th/hwy 21 search area. Again, this is GUESSING where the sectors are, and I'm placing them to make the search locations make sense. So this is NOT based on any kind of formal tower information. Also this is assuming her phone remained with her and on.

IF CR took the most direct route from 385th and 200 to the cornfield via 200 south and 460th east (blue line on map), then around the intersection of 200th and 460th, MT's phone possible could have pinged two towers (both approximately 4 miles from that spot).

As CR drove east on 460th a short ways from that intersection, he could have left the Deep River tower's sector range because Guernsey's tower was strongest, so her phone pinged again. If she stayed within that tower's same sector (including in the cornfield), the phone might not have pinged again (I've read if inactive it could be up to 8 hours between pings, and it would have rained a lot before that), thus making the last ping closer to 460th and 200, and that leaves a swath of search area (in yellow on map) that includes the pig farm and the intersection of 470th and 21 where SharonNeedles showed pictures of searches in progress.

I am NOT and expert at cell phone towers or map making, so this is to be taken with that in mind. If there is anyone out there with more knowledge, a map might help us all a lot. Thanks!

*I've also included an almanac of the weather that night. IMO, with that much rain, her phone would have gotten wet, even under corn leaves.

Repost of article on cell phone triangulation:

Cell Tower Triangulation – How it Works

 

[MsBetsy]

No sorry, I guess we just see differently. All I’m seeing is a few lines typed on an affidavit that summarized many hours of questioning. So CR claims he got mad after Mollie threatened to call police. But the reason her threat caused him to go blotto isn’t stated but I’m certain it was asked, maybe even answered. Was it deep fear of police, irrational rage over rejection, a momentary flashback to another incident or something else....we don’t know the reason he didn’t choose to do the right thing by walking away. But I don’t see the reason is associated to blame.

In saying she told him to go away, and that her threatening to call police made him upset and angry, He is implying that it is because of her that he got angry. This is what people are referring to when they say he is "victim blaming." The police would not have described it as such, but it is what we can interpret to be the case. Jmo

 

[JudgeJudi]

Apologies for moving off the current discussion for a minute. I've been trying to catch up and the following relates to an older thread where the question of vultures was being discussed.

There are many websites related to turkey vultures in Iowa. Turkey vultures are not birds of prey, as their feet are weak and useless for grabbing prey. Their beaks, however, are powerful enough to rip through the hide of a dead deer or cow. With no vocal organ, turkey vultures are only able to grunt or make low hisses, but their sense of smell is rare in the bird world. They can smell carrion that’s less than 12 to 24 hours old from more than a mile away. They want mammal meat as fresh as possible—preferably that of a plant-eating mammal—and will not eat extremely rotted carcasses.

http://www.iowadnr.gov/About-DNR/DNR-News-Releases/ArticleID/532/Turkey-Vultures-Don%E2%80%99t-Deserve-the-Bad-Rap-Cool-Facts-on-These-Iowa-Scavengers

Ranging widely as they search for food, turkey vultures prefer farmland pasture where carcasses might be found, and with nearby forests where they find nesting and roosting spots. Powerful olfactory senses help the turkey vulture locate carcasses, and they may circle in groups, narrowing down the scent source, before spotting it. This allows them to find carrion in deep woods. One circling vulture brings sharp-eyed companions from miles around, and they share their plunder, rising with heavy flaps from roadsides when disturbed.

https://www.birdwatchersdigest.com/bwdsite/category/learn/identification/diurnal-raptors/

You’ll appreciate why I chose this pic.



https://hiveminer.com/Tags/iowa%2Cvulture

 

[SharonNeedles]

Stalking happens more than one knows and comes in many forms.
MT was active on social media, and it would of been one method he could of used to track her.
Next would be anyone close to her such as her bf, family, & close friends.

Yes, he had the opportunity to stalk her in many different ways - but did he? Other than “he’s seen her before” there hasn’t been any indication that he had previously stalked her. None.

 

[mickey2942]

Creep factor. One serial killer stated he never knew how to talk to pretty girls, he would try to ask one out, and she insulted him, this is his recollection, so he decided that kidnapping and killing them was far easier than asking for dates. And he was in control. Edmund Kemper.

This guy does not remind me of Bundy, but it is noted that he had a relationship, and didn't kill that girl. Not unlike Bundy who maintained a normal relationship, and kept killing women.

 

[kpm]

A couple threads back was quite a lengthy discussion regarding Brooklyn and area and it’s lack of social events. As in most smaller communities, that’s typical and therefore opportunities for two strangers to meet at social functions are very limited.

So in typical situations, male/female or vice versa, admiring someone from a distance and then one or another making the first move to find out if the attraction is reciprocated is the start of a great many relationships as well.

So my point is a total stranger striking up a casual conversation in smaller communities isn’t viewed with quite as much suspicion or distrust as it might in large urban centres. So I’m not so sure that sort of behaviour is necessarily evidence indicating murder intent.

I’m just referring to the people who have come forward so far claiming his advances were unwanted and creepy.

I never said his intent with the others indicated murder, obviously they are still alive after refusing him.

But he his apparent approach to meeting females creeped some of them out, that does play into how he approached Mollie that evening, IMO.

 

[Al Hoffman]

But Mr. Bahena Rivera’s quiet demeanor sometimes stood out in jarring ways.

A neighbor said he did not always follow the local custom of acknowledging him when Mr. Bahena Rivera drove by in a Chevy Malibu.

And, more alarmingly, a woman said he made her uncomfortable with a romantic advance and repeated Facebook messages in the middle of the night.

“He would just stare. He wouldn’t really like talk,” said the woman, Brooke Bestell, 20, who had turned Mr. Bahena Rivera down when he asked her out on a date. “Something about him was off.”

Others found his behavior more troubling. Ms. Bestell, the acquaintance who declined a date with him, said he would not make conversation when she encountered him in person, but he would send repeated social media messages over a period of months.

“Just over and over, like every week or so, he would message me again,” Ms. Bestell said, including as recently as June 13 at 3 a.m.

After he was arrested, two of Ms. Bestell’s friends told her that he had also messaged them online over the years. “I don’t know how many other girls he probably was trying to talk to,” she said.


"I know Cristhian from my sister. She thought he was a nice, well-spoken person. They hung out a few times but nothing really happened romantically," Gibson said.

She started feeling uncomfortable around Rivera after he approached her in a manner similar to how he approached Tibbetts.

It was more flirty than sexual but my sister is very shy.She didn’t appreciate it."

"She told me that a little while ago he drove up to her while she was walking through Brooklyn," Gibson said. "He told her she was really pretty and things like that. It was more flirty than sexual but my sister is very shy. She didn’t appreciate it."

"Even though she knew him a little she felt unsafe and didn't want to talk to him. In the end, she was really creeped out by his behavior. She had to keep telling him she wasn't interested."


Another man — who was only identified as Justin — claimed that Rivera followed his fiancée in his car.



“I remember her calling me when she noticed how slow he was driving by in circles, turning around the block to keep up with her several times on her walk home,” he said.

“I vividly remember one day, it was around sunset or just after, my fiancée called because she was scared."

Justin said she was returning from getting groceries when Rivera drove past her at least six times.

"Now it’s really strange because of how long he’s been driving around like that. It makes you wonder if Mollie was his only victim.”




How the Suspect in Mollie Tibbetts’s Death Built a Life in an Iowa Farm Town


New Details About Cristhian Rivera's Unsettling History — Including How He Followed Another Teen Girl In His Car Before Killing Mollie Tibbetts

And all of these events are a preliminary to the day when he decided to act on his impulses with MT, to tragic result. If nothing else it shows a persistent pattern of behaviour, of passing by a woman several times, near dusk. Just as it is alleged that he did with MT.

Very good post kpm. Thanks!

 

[MistyWaters]

Very true. In the world I live in, every body tends to shift the blame onto someone else. It's human nature. I can't tell you how many times I hear people do it. Just the other day, at a soccer game someone said to his wife, " was that a goal? Did it make it in? Are you even paying attention?" and the wife said, I don't know, you asked me to get a drink out of the cooler, so I missed it!" In a very subtle way they are both blaming each other. I was trying to make this point the other day, and many didn't understand, so hopefully this is a better example. Just to be clear, I am just referring to shifting the blame, not correlating that with what Mollie or Rivera said or did or even " blaming the victim" , just giving an example of how we do this in subtle ways. I know people say they would never do this and take responsibility for their own actions, but in my world it happens everyday . So that being said, I will again state my belief that when Rivera said her threatening to call police made him angry, he is, although subtle, blaming the victim for his actions. Jmo

I suppose I could ask the question - why do we care if CR “blamed” Mollie?

That’s still no excuse for murder.

 

[MsBetsy]

I'm not sure I understand your point. Are you saying that murderers can't be "nice guys" - either to some people in their lives or for a portion of their lives? All murderers are not necessarily horrible monsters their entire lives.
Personally, I don't think CW would have ever done to a stranger what he did to his family. I think it's also possible that CR would have never done to a family member/friend what he did to Mollie.
Is it any wonder that these guys have been described as nice or good fathers? People always hide the worst of themselves if possible.

I also personally believe very few evil people start out as evil.

No! Sorry I wasn't saying that at all. I was saying this particular murderer isn't a nice guy. He doesn't appear to have any respect for human life. And I agree, He would not have done anything like that to his family. You are right, people do not start out as being evil. It is the combination of genetic predisposition and environmental factors that shape a human being. Imo

 

[CuriousCricket]

Sure, I’ll play. If CR was so highly concerned about himself and his family getting outed, then what motivated him to initially attack Mollie? Why wouldn’t he want to keep his nose clean for that very reason?

If his story is true, after running along side of her, she asked him to leave her alone or she’d call police, why didn’t he do what virtually all young men would do in that situation - apologize and immediately back off?

Because he also couldn’t have known in advance that at any moment a witness might’ve driven down that road, either called police or shot him to stop the attack.

What occurred is just so absolutely senseless.

BBM

If his purpose for pulling over, and running alongside of her, was so he could ask her on a date, and she told him 'NO, go away please'---he would have no reason to throw her in the trunk of his car. He could have just left her alone.

She was not going to call the cops unless he kept following and harassing her. He could have stopped.

But he didn't stop because he was not there just to flirt or ask her to dinner.

However if we go with your scenario, and he only reacted that way because he was worried ABOUT LOSING WHAT HE HAD---then I am afraid that he is a monster.

He is the one that is breaking our laws, living here illegally, using stolen identity to stay here and work. Those are his own choices. And when he aggressively pursues a woman, to the point she feels the need to call 911, he decides to KILL HER, to cover up his previous crimes.

That is not the description of a 'regular, good guy.' That describes a violent criminal with no conscience, IMO.

He "flew mad" -- emphasis on the "mad". That is not what he called it, and I have no idea the official name professionals would use. However, I have seen it happen.

Whatever sets him off, he goes berserk. Now, the person I know is mainly verbal. His family always blamed the mother because he was a sickly baby who was coddled, doted on and never made to rein himself in.

I can not tell you that's what happened with CR. However, with the fella I knew any little thing, out of the blue, could set him off. Even as an adult, he occasionally hit people and lost jobs but charges were never pressed.

Usually, the explosion came after a period of "build up" and the person he exploded on was not the culprit -- just the receivee. And that makes we wonder about the WSer who suspects MT's death might have something to do with the ex-GF.

Another person has pointed out the stress of leading a hidden secret life where someone can lose everything the second of exposure. . . .

Now, CR has proven he's not safe to be allowed out. Who knows when the fuse will get lit and the dynamite explode on another innocent? He must be kept locked up, IMO

However, as much as I respect Sharon Needles' take on his section of Iowa (and I have enormous respect and belief in your "gut" feeling, SN), I still sort of expect we'll learn of other victims of CR. Or even if we never hear of them, I will suspect they are there.

Prob not the SA victims in neighboring counties. I trust SN's analysis of that -- subject to both of us being proven wrong, of course.

However, CR "lost it" literally -- lost all thought, all reason, all control -- on MT. Why?

My guess is that it has happened before with women it was safe for him to assault -- other illegals. CR had become accustomed to attacking for whatever his trigger was -- and getting by with it. He was comfortable. Therefore, there was no tamping down the explosive as maybe he would have earlier . . . before he had gotten comfortable with exploding. I just think he’d gotten too “out-of-control” for this to be a first time.

You see, the person I know who "flies mad" only did it when it was "safe" with people he was "safe" with. He threatened to hit me once. I told him I wasn't afraid, but I would press charges to the full extent of the law. I would not put up with his behavior. . . Never threatened again. Guess he could have killed me . . . come to think of it.

So why did my threatening him make a difference but maybe caused CR to explode? I don't know. Each case/each person is different, of course Still, I wonder with CR -- he flew mad with MT, who definitely was not safe and his brain would have known that. She was not just a white girl, but an exemplary member of their small community. Well-known, popular. So why didn’t his brain protect him?

For some reason, on that day at that time, CR lost his temper and everything. Even worse -- Mollie lost her life. I’m trying to see how any good can come of this. What can we learn in order to avoid it in the future?

“What occurred is just so absolutely senseless,” @ MistyWaters. It was, and so painful because somehow we keep thinking there must be a way to prevent things like this from happening . . . how can we keep this from happening again?

“That describes a violent criminal with no conscience, IMO” katydid23. Maybe it does @katydid23, I don’t know.

 

[Leney]

Yes, he had the opportunity to stalk her in many different ways - but did he? Other than “he’s seen her before” there hasn’t been any indication that he had previously stalked her. None.

IMO yes.
Has LE confirmed No.

 

[MistyWaters]

I’m just referring to the people who have come forward so far claiming his advances were unwanted and creepy.

I never said his intent with the others indicated murder, obviously they are still alive.

But he his apparent approach to meeting females creeped some of them out, that does play into how he approached Mollie that evening, IMO.

Okay, I get it.

The boyfriend story originated from Radar Online and the “sister” story is not consistent with an earlier report by a person of the same name who claimed to know IM and was surprised about the arrest, so I question the credibility of both.

But by now I’m sure LE has interviewed virtually everyone who had contact with CR and indeed those types of scenarios may form a history. But potential witnesses with valuable trial testimony are generally cautioned against speaking about it in advance via the media.

 

[Mica]

I do think it’s also a possibility, however, that he spotted her when he was in town for another reason, then began to follow her in anticipation of where she might run. Or even that he came into town to check around for her. He circled around in his car waiting to see IF she would go in a more isolated direction. Then he made his move. It doesn’t to me show any concrete evidence that he knew exactly where to find her and where she would run.

I think it was Dalton who said Mollie had 3 running routes. If this is the case, and CR had been previously watching MT, it would be easy to determine where the best location of abduction would be.

I wonder if LE’s known locations on their map were one of the 3 usual routes MT ran.

 

[SharonNeedles]

I'm not sure I understand your point. Are you saying that murderers can't be "nice guys" - either to some people in their lives or for a portion of their lives? All murderers are not necessarily horrible monsters their entire lives.
Personally, I don't think CW would have ever done to a stranger what he did to his family. I think it's also possible that CR would have never done to a family member/friend what he did to Mollie.
Is it any wonder that these guys have been described as nice or good fathers? People always hide the worst of themselves if possible.

I also personally believe very few evil people start out as evil.

I can’t hammer that point home enough. I’m not nearly as worried about the people I can see have the potential to be dangerous, recognizing that allows me to crank up caution a couple notches. You’re in the most danger when you don’t recognize there’s danger.

 

[MsBetsy]

Yes, he had the opportunity to stalk her in many different ways - but did he? Other than “he’s seen her before” there hasn’t been any indication that he had previously stalked her. None.

I think that is exactly what LE may be attempting to do; looking for a pattern of behavior. We have heard from witnesses who say he made them feel uncomfortable, who were supposedly approached by him ( not saying those stories are true) but if LE can somehow prove that he followed or persued others, it may be helpful to the case. Of course there is a fine line between predatory behavior and pursuing women because they want to" get with them," as he may very well have been trying to do! All my humble opinion.

 

[SharonNeedles]

I think that is exactly what LE may be attempting to do; looking for a pattern of behavior. We have heard from witnesses who say he made them feel uncomfortable, who were supposedly approached by him ( not saying those stories are true) but if LE can somehow prove that he followed or persued others, it may be helpful to the case. Of course there is a fine line between predatory behavior and pursuing women because they want to" get with them," as he may very well have been trying to do! All my humble opinion.

Oh for sure, investigators certainly need to look at that. When they get to trial and want to assert that CR was stalking Mollie, or even prowling around with nefarious intentions, they darn well better be able to back that up.

 

[zecats]

I think it was Dalton who said Mollie had 3 running routes. If this is the case, and CR had been previously watching MT, it would be easy to determine where the best location of abduction would be.

I wonder if LE’s known locations on their map were one of the 3 usual routes MT ran.

I believe the locations on the map from LE were areas of interest due to digital activity. They did claim early on to have mapped her timeline. Jmo

 

[Al Hoffman]

Is uncle certainly knew his status and worked on the same farm, they cover up for each other, no one is going to spill the beans.

Someone guided the 16 year old in how to obtain fake/false ID and SS

It's just like the "underground railroad" back in the day. Those who went before showed those who followed the way to the promised land, and how to get by and survive once they got there.

This is also the narrative of the rich immigrant experience, of peoples coming to the US from around the world, over hundreds of years, guided by those who came before, and making this country what it is today.

Unfortunately, MT is a flawed young man who allowed himself to act on his impulses and take MT's life as alleged. I'm sure that now, CR's peers are also horrified by his actions, and regret that they did not act to intervene prior to MT's death.