Found Deceased IA - Mollie Tibbetts, 20, Poweshiek County, 19 Jul 2018 *Arrest* #44

[MistyWaters]

if we assume it is a time stamp on video then we have to assume there was cctv in the cornfield? or maybe that he crossed paths with a cctv while leaveing? maybe. I think for the sake of getting the warrant written it is as simple as it being the time he stated. I think that is the safest way for them to write it and not risk how to back it up in the court room.

I don’t think cctv was in the cornfield. But it could be from a rural residence that he drove past, coming and going in each direction.

 

[rosesfromangels]

Snippped by me:
Or he had no idea himself that’s what was about to go down. I can’t imagine if he wanted to not be seen he would drive around the block multiple times in an area where people know him and could recognize him - not to mention wherever else he had driven through town to even get to that block.

Maybe he was so focused on his prey that nothing else mattered.

 

[Followfacts]

Time of Death and Cause of Death
Dr. Gulnaz Javan of Alabama State University holds a Ph.D. in Forensic Science and studies the human thanatomicrobiome.


The Human Postmortem Microbiome Project

Crime scene applications have yet to be fully elucidated and implemented; however, recent human postmortem microbiome studies have provided very enthusiastic and promising potential for the determination of time and cause of death. The ultimate purposes of postmortem microbiome studies are to establish the Human Postmortem Microbiome Project (HPMP). HPMP was officially introduced and clarified in two groundbreaking scientific papers published by Frontiers in Microbiology and Scientific Reports Dr. Javan says, “HPMP is an initiative to create a consortium of research projects to identify and characterize the thanatomicrobiome and epinecrotic communities (for example, epithelial tissues, body cavities, and the alimentary canal), relating to human decomposition.”

Next-generation metagenomic sequencing can assess microbial DNA sequences in the entire thanatomicrobiomic community in a SINGLE RUN of LESS than 48 hours.

HPMP encompasses the creation of community-specific databases

 

[MistyWaters]

Respectfully, but IMO I am just not getting the vibe that CR was some cunning criminal with well laid plans who almost executed a perfect murder were it not for the cameras catching his car on video.

IMO he just seems more of an annoying little dude that frequently behaved inappropriately to females he came in contact with and then snapped on that fateful day. It even seems apparent that no one took his harassment seriously enough to report him even with the biggest case ever in their small town unfolding... they still thought he was just an annoying little dude.

I also just think he got super lucky for the five weeks and started to actually believe he got away with it. JMO. Who knows, maybe he even "prayed" that if he was not caught he would never do it again and thought that was working out.

Just my .02

On the topic of praying, something I wondered about....My question is not for the purpose of instigating a religious discussion. I’m only interested in information. Would a Priest “pray for the spirit of forgiveness” if the one who “did this” was non-Catholic?

My question pertains to this statement by Father Close:

“We need to pray for a spirit of forgiveness for the one who did this," the priest said. "Faith teaches us that Christ came to forgive us. We’re all in need of forgiveness. We’re all sinners. None of us are exempt."
Mollie Tibbetts vigil: 'We need to pray for a spirit of forgiveness,' pastor tells community

I could be wrong, but from what I know of the Catholic religion, it suggests to me CR was a baptized and practising Catholic. A very high percentage of Mexicans are Catholic, as high as 85%.

Because what I wonder, if CR began his obsession of stalking, targeting Mollie by sighting her at services or functions connected with that church? If so, that’s utterly horrible.

 

[Anthony D]

Why is it so hard to believe that CR was just a creepy guy that made young women uncomfortable and he snapped in the moment? Has no one here ever seen how someone acts when they get extremely angry? Some people can turn really violent.

It doesn't take much to cause head trauma all he had to do was tackle her hard enough and slam her head to the ground a few times. No idea when the stabbing occurred, but that could be with anything a farm tool, pocket knife etc. The evidence at this point doesn't point to much else. I am not saying more details will not come out, but all the evidence shows us at this point is :

CR Approached her
She told CR to go away
Got mad, she ran away
CR chased her
*block out period*
CR remembered she was in trunk
CR took her out of trunk and carried then dragged her while she had visible blood on her
Left her in cornfield.

No other credible evidence has pointed to anything else. Some of these theories in this thread really stretch.

 

[MsBetsy]

Forensic pathologists visit crime scenes to examine bodies before they are moved, especially in suspected murder cases. Even if the autopsy isn’t yet signed off as official, it’s possible they are able to form a conclusion in advance.

Right, that's how I remember it, so Anthony d'S original post would be accurate that the body would be badly decomposed. I just got confused when I first saw " no" in the response to that. We did have quite a lengthy and thorough discussion, complete with informative articles, on that topic in earlier threads. But yes, I do think it would have been near impossible for anyone to identify the body by appearance alone. I think that's what anthony d was referring to.

 

[Anthony D]

Right, that's how I remember it, so Anthony d'S original post would be accurate that the body would be badly decomposed. I just got confused when I first saw " no" in the response to that. We did have quite a lengthy and thorough discussion, complete with informative articles, on that topic in earlier threads. But yes, I do think it would have been near impossible for anyone to identify the body by appearance alone. I think that's what anthony d was referring to.

Yes which means if she was held captive at all (not likely) it couldn't have been for very long.

 

[MsBetsy]

Why is it so hard to believe that CR was just a creepy guy that made young women uncomfortable and he snapped in the moment? Has no one here ever seen how someone acts when they get extremely angry? Some people can turn really violent.

It doesn't take much to cause head trauma all he had to do was tackle her hard enough and slam her head to the ground a few times. No idea when the stabbing occurred, but that could be with anything a farm tool, pocket knife etc. The evidence at this point doesn't point to much else. I am not saying more details will not come out, but all the evidence shows us at this point is :

CR Approached her
She told CR to go away
Got mad, she ran away
CR chased her
*block out period*
CR remembered she was in trunk
CR took her out of trunk and carried then dragged her while she had visible blood on her
Left her in cornfield.

No other credible evidence has pointed to anything else. Some of these theories in this thread really stretch.

I think it's more accurate to say "speculative theories" but that's pretty much all we can do at this point. For all we know there could be some motive none of us has even thought of, in the end.

 

[rebel123]

During that time there were also the huge volume of 4000 tips for LE to investigate.

Something I’ve thought about, it’s the large reward growing and growing for the return of an alive Mollie until the day CR was caught.

That’s the reason I’m thinking it’s unlikely the 8:28pm time indicated on the arrest warrant has a connection to a Fitbit. Because if LE had known in advance there was no possibility of finding her alive due to technology, I think they’d have issued the typical sort of statement “we have reason to believe MT is no longer alive” in order to streamline tips relating only to a murderer as opposed to potential kidnappers or sightings.

I’m stuck on the theory the 8:28pm is directly connected to what LE later uncovered relating to the actions of CR, such as when the black Malibu was sighted by video on roads leaving the cornfield location towards his home. And prior to that, the 8:28 time wasn’t a key factor. I just can’t quite comprehend for what purpose, if LE otherwise had certain proof of her death all along, the point of misleading both the family and the general public with false hope that Mollie might still be alive.

What I was getting at is downloading all the CCTV footage; however many hours; getting software to identify 'joggers' in the CCTV footage. Then LE has narrowed down hugely the relevant footage.

 

[CuriousCricket]

Respectfully, but IMO I am just not getting the vibe that CR was some cunning criminal with well laid plans who almost executed a perfect murder were it not for the cameras catching his car on video.

IMO he just seems more of an annoying little dude that frequently behaved inappropriately to females he came in contact with and then snapped on that fateful day. It even seems apparent that no one took his harassment seriously enough to report him even with the biggest case ever in their small town unfolding... they still thought he was just an annoying little dude.

I also just think he got super lucky for the five weeks and started to actually believe he got away with it. JMO. Who knows, maybe he even "prayed" that if he was not caught he would never do it again and thought that was working out.

Just my .02

I agree with this. Super annoying little dude . . . what a description.

And he chose a remote area so if he was rejected, no one had to know.

In the press conference where they announced finding MT and the arrest of CR, I think Rahn said that CR said he tackled her.

I wonder if getting out of the car, maybe running backward attempting to "flirt" was his idea of being "cute."

When she told him to leave her alone and started to jog off, maybe he tackled her to try to talk her out of reporting him, to plead with her not to call LE.

ONLY she hit her head and was unconscious.

I imagine panic as he put her in the car, grabbing up all the evidence.

Somewhere he stopped to check on her to see if he could revive her and he couldn't. I suggest the temper tantrum and fury kicked in and he started stabbing her, prob. cursing her, "look what you've made me do!", "Mollie, why did you have to go and do this?" etc.

Now, we get to the part that is very undecided for me. The fact that he drove her so far away and hid her so well he almost got away with it, speaks of experience to me. I have to wonder about his past.

Earlier, I believe there was mention that the dump location was owned by the family of a student in school with IM and DJ. It was also mentioned that the pull offs into the fields, hidden from the road and everyone were good party sites for the kids.

So, did he remember it in crisis? Did he just get lucky? Or is it possible (and ironic) that an outing that could almost be an accident brought down an experienced criminal who had remained below everyone's radar?

I'm all over the place on this.

 

[Al Hoffman]

Thank you for this post, Al. It's very informative and opens the possibility she did not have a massive bleed out.

I don't know a lot about FitBits, but I have read on their website that if the band is not sitting properly on the wrist (too high, too low, off center), or too tight/not tight enough, the heart rate reading may not be accurate. There are also several studies that show low blood pressure affecting the accuracy, as well. Those two things make me question the FitBit as being that 8:28pm time indicator.

Hey, I'm just giving you the benefit of clinical experience I gained while earning a pay check. Everything else is just a posit. I was there watching when the Infamous Mehaff stuffed a urinary catheter into a guy's heart in the Accident Room in a Hail Mary move, but I was not there when CR presumably killed MT.

The precise/accurate nature of the 20:28 time line is odd, and tends to make me lean towards the FitBit as a source for this temporal data point. Yeah, there ARE reasons why the FitBit data could be wonky, but the thing was made to do a job, and there is no reason to assume that it did not perform as designed in this situation. Even hypotension, associated with the terminal phase of death from hypovolemic shock, should show a decipherable heart rate pattern on a device dependant on such supporting physiology. Also the body's tachycardia in response to hypovolemia is meant to maintain a BP approaching normal while blood volume drops, as is the process of fluids migrating from the tissues into the circulation.

Human physiology can be described in one word: Homeostasis. The body is controlled by multiple negative feedback loops that all function to maintain a "steady state" within narrow ranges. The body will attempt to maintain a BP and HR compatable with life, for all long as it can, before crashing and dying. God did not make junk. (BTW: The ONLY positive feedback control mechanism in the body is that controlling blood clotting. The more you bleed eternally, the more the blood will clot in response to form a plug. That control system is REALLY complex)

But the 20:28 answer could be as simple as CR noting that time on his watch, as he held his victim by neck , and stabbed her with his dependant hand. (You would be surprised by the things you remember in high stress situations, under the effect of adrenaline). And that CR simply reported this to LE in his interview, or the time on the dash clock, or the time heard over the car radio as he started to drive with his victim dead in the trunk, looking for a good Mexican station to listen to.

At this point, your guess is as good as mine. The only true facts I have to share with y'all are the ones I learned by staying up late at night reading Dr. Guyton's Big Illustrated Book Of Physiology, and Dr Gray's Big Illustrated Book Of British Body Parts. (I can also work on imports).

 

[otto]

Why do you think LE pondered how he escalated to “abduction, kidnapping, murder” ?

“All of a sudden he just does it,” says Mitch Mortvedt, assistant director of the Iowa Division of Criminal Investigation, referring to suspect Cristhian Rivera.

“Who escalates to abduction, kidnapping and homicide that fast?”

Cops Wonder: If Mollie Tibbetts' Accused Killer Has No Record — Who Jumps to Murder That Fast?

Investigators are using the term "abduction" because that is what they know happened. There's no reason to doubt that this was an abduction.

 

[otto]

If LE already had reason to believe Mollie was no longer living, for what reason do you believe they didn’t say so? I’ve noticed other cases when LE’s releases a statement saying they have good reason to believe a missing person is no longer alive without releasing any other details whatsoever.

Until there is a body or proof of death, police refer to the missing person as a missing person.

 

[MsBetsy]

Maybe he was so focused on his prey that nothing else mattered.

Especially if he was out of control.

 

[otto]

I think your post makes a lot of sense. The one thing I find interesting and might have some relevance to CR anger is what was the status of his relationship with the GF or XGF. One news report I read said they had been split up for more than a year while another indicated the GF moved out of the trailer the morning CR was arrested - so if they were or had reconciled it might change his attitude toward young women who somewhat resembled MT , but if they had not and the GF just happened to pick that morning to move out it might have no relevance at all
JMOO

There have been contradictory reports about the girlfriend. Going from memory, people on the farm said that she moved out after the arrest, other reports say that they split a couple of years ago. Putting the two conflicting pieces of information together, perhaps they were officially split, but they still hooked-up.

 

[Followfacts]

On the topic of praying, something I wondered about....My question is not for the purpose of instigating a religious discussion. I’m only interested in information. Would a Priest “pray for the spirit of forgiveness” if the one who “did this” was non-Catholic?

My question pertains to this statement by Father Close:

“We need to pray for a spirit of forgiveness for the one who did this," the priest said. "Faith teaches us that Christ came to forgive us. We’re all in need of forgiveness. We’re all sinners. None of us are exempt."
Mollie Tibbetts vigil: 'We need to pray for a spirit of forgiveness,' pastor tells community

I could be wrong, but from what I know of the Catholic religion, it suggests to me CR was a baptized and practising Catholic. A very high percentage of Mexicans are Catholic, as high as 85%.

Because what I wonder, if CR began his obsession of stalking, targeting Mollie by sighting her at services or functions connected with that church? If so, that’s utterly horrible.

Good question! If Catholic not likely practicing as he killed a person, maybe when he was younger, indoctrination and sacraments but obviously rejection of the faith at some point to be able to kill. Superficial engagement in Catholic community would have given him some pretense/cover. As I’ve read about numerous serial killers from Websleuths posters referring to several cases and killers some out right rejected the religion they were raised in.

Forgiveness is central to many in faith communities.

 

[Jaclin]

This looks like the motive : anger over rejection (real or imagined)

"In the past, he told her he split up from his ex-girlfriend, the mother of his daughter, because she cheated on him."

Friend of murdered Mollie Tibbetts reveals chilling texts with Cristhian Rivera, Mollie's killer | Daily Mail Online

Ted Bundy was rejected by a woman from a wealthy family that could have secured his political future, and he went on to murder many women who had the same look.

I do wonder if MT could have been a surrogate.

 

[MsBetsy]

Time of Death and Cause of Death
Dr. Gulnaz Javan of Alabama State University holds a Ph.D. in Forensic Science and studies the human thanatomicrobiome.


The Human Postmortem Microbiome Project

Crime scene applications have yet to be fully elucidated and implemented; however, recent human postmortem microbiome studies have provided very enthusiastic and promising potential for the determination of time and cause of death. The ultimate purposes of postmortem microbiome studies are to establish the Human Postmortem Microbiome Project (HPMP). HPMP was officially introduced and clarified in two groundbreaking scientific papers published by Frontiers in Microbiology and Scientific Reports Dr. Javan says, “HPMP is an initiative to create a consortium of research projects to identify and characterize the thanatomicrobiome and epinecrotic communities (for example, epithelial tissues, body cavities, and the alimentary canal), relating to human decomposition.”

Next-generation metagenomic sequencing can assess microbial DNA sequences in the entire thanatomicrobiomic community in a SINGLE RUN of LESS than 48 hours.

HPMP encompasses the creation of community-specific databases

Can you repeat that, please? What is thanatomicrobiomic community and what exactly, is a community of body cavities? Can someone other than Dr. Javan summarize this in simpler terms?

 

[kpm]

Investigators are using the term "abduction" because that is what they know happened. There's no reason to doubt that this was an abduction.

I’m not doubting there was an abduction

What about kidnapping?

 

[otto]

My only point was I don’t think he was necessarily shocked. He was leaning toward the likelihood of prior violent incidents that LE wasn’t yet aware of.

CR himself gave a lead to LE that he has a past history. He said he “blocks” his memory when he gets very upset. How would he know that if he’d never gotten upset in the past?

He did reveal an important detail about himself when he claimed that he rages and then blocks his memory. His family claims that they know nothing abut this, but someone must.