Found Deceased IA - Mollie Tibbetts, 20, Poweshiek County, 19 Jul 2018 *Arrest* #46

[TL4S]

I suppose the defense's burden is poking holes in the evidence. A burden of casting a shadow of doubt. It will be interesting to see how they do this. Because right now, it doesn't look good for their client.

Perhaps their client was kicked in the head by a cow the day of the incident. His employer was negligent in getting care for him. Anything that casts a doubt.

I know NOTHING about this case is funny at all, but that cow kick story did make me laugh.

Truthfully, I think CR will get convicted, and I think LE has a LOT of information that we don't. But it is that meager shadow of a doubt part that makes me nervous.

 

[MistyWaters]

The bare bone facts like we normally do in other cases similar to this one.

But it is not what we know that matters. This is just a crime blog where we exchange opinions based on what facts we do know at the time.

We will not know many of the facts in evidence LE.. has gathered to date and beyond. They never divulge their best evidence until the presiding judge gives them a firm date for all discovery to be turned over to the defense when it gets closer to trial. Even then we will not learn what all they have amassed against the defendant until his trial. That is one of the reasons trials are so interesting to me. We always learn new evidence and at times it can be shocking when finally learned.

Oh let me ask you this please. I know he has been arraigned...correct? Will he have a preliminary hearing? If so we usually learn facts we didn't know because they are like mini trials. If he waives it I think the prosecutor will continue to hold his evidence close to their chest.

I find PHs..almost as interesting as the trial itself. When Scott Dylexi..murdered Pam Vitale the PH lasted 3 weeks.

Imo

In this case, it seems the county has not chosen the option of putting the case before a Grand Jury. I notice on the timeline below the arraignment has already occurred, the plea filed and a trial date set. A Grand Jury would’ve been involved prior to that occurring.

https://www.iowacourts.gov/static/media/cms/E0402_4AB079FBEE8C6.pdf

 

[EmmaRose]

OT

I was off the grid myself for many months. First time that has happened since I became member in January 2004.

My hubby finally retired after 51 years of service. So I spent all of those months enjoying him being home. with me everyday.

But he is not an idle man and has opened his own business now and is back to being as busy as ever. Lol

It is wonderful to see your posts again.

 

[Confusion]

I don't think the defense will be nearly as hard as some people do. As long as they are only charging him with Murder One, they don't have to get the jury to doubt that he killed her; they only have to cause reasonable doubt in one or more jurors that the murder was premeditated. Unless other charges are added and/or the option of convicting of Murder Two is given, I believe he could be found not guilty. If that should happen, I think we all know that being legally not guilty sometimes has nothing to do with whether or not you committed the crime. I just hope whatever happens, it brings justice for MT, and some semblance of peace to her family. moo

 

[MistyWaters]

Double post

 

[MistyWaters]

I don't think the defense will be nearly as hard as some people do. As long as they are only charging him with Murder One, they don't have to get the jury to doubt that he killed her; they only have to cause reasonable doubt in one or more jurors that the murder was premeditated. Unless other charges are added and/or the option of convicting of Murder Two is given, I believe he could be found not guilty. If that should happen, I think we all know that being legally not guilty sometimes has nothing to do with whether or not you committed the crime. I just hope whatever happens, it brings justice for MT, and some semblance of peace to her family. moo

In every murder trial I’ve followed, during the Judge’s Instructions to the jurors, he or she adds appropriate lesser charges and explains to the jury what elements to consider for each different type of potential conviction. The accused is originally only charged with the highest murder count the DA believes the evidence supports, in this case premeditated murder. I’m quite certain the inclusion of lesser charges is standard for the very reason you outline.

This is somewhat of a reference. BBM
“In jury trials the defendant will assist the attorney in picking a jury. In jury trials, the jury decides whether the evidence proves beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant did in fact commit the crime accused of. In many cases, in addition to the crime charged the jury may be allowed to determine whether the defendant is guilty of some lesser included offense. The jury decides factual issues, the judge decides legal issues.”
Criminal Case Information | Culp, Doran & Genest | Attorney Des Moines Iowa

 

[MistyWaters]

Here’s what I was looking for. Depending on the specific evidence presented during the trial, the Judge then will give the Juror instructions on any lesser charges that might be considered. What I’ve copied below is just the proforma but during an actual trial, the blanks are of course filled in.

Iowa Criminal Jury Instructions
https://c.ymcdn.com/sites/www.iowab...Files/06-15_IA_Criminal_Jury_Instr.pdf#page64

(From the Index, click on 700: Murder and the specific the charge filed in this case)

700.1 Murder In The First Degree - Premeditation, Willfulness, Deliberation - Elements

1. On or about the _____ day of __________, 19____, the defendant [shot] [struck] [appropriate word or phrase] (victim).

2. (Victim) died as a result of being [shot] [struck] appropriate word or phrase].

3. The defendant acted with malice aforethought.

4. The defendant acted willfully, deliberately, premeditatedly and with a specific intent to kill (victim).

If the State has proved all of the elements, the defendant is guilty of Murder In The First Degree. If the State has failed to prove any one of the elements, the defendant is not guilty of Murder In The First Degree (and you will then consider the charge of __________________ explained in Instruction No. ______).

After that comes:
700.2 Murder In The First Degree - Participating In A Forcible Felony - Elements. The State must prove all of the following elements of Murder In The First Degree. <snipped>
If the State has proved all of the elements, the defendant is guilty of Murder In The First Degree. If the State has failed to prove any one of the elements, the defendant is not guilty of Murder In The First Degree (and you will then consider the charge of ________________ explained in Instruction No. _____).

And so forth as appropriate, deemed by the Judge

 

[The Farm]

You’re exactly right. Defendant does not have a burden of proof.

Isn't the fact that he led LE to her body enough burden of proof???? It's enough for me.
Or am I misunderstanding here?

 

[Confusion]

Here’s what I was looking for. Depending on the specific evidence presented during the trial, the Judge then will give the Juror instructions on any lesser charges that might be considered. What I’ve copied below is just the proforma but during an actual trial, the blanks are of course filled in.

Iowa Criminal Jury Instructions
https://c.ymcdn.com/sites/www.iowab...Files/06-15_IA_Criminal_Jury_Instr.pdf#page64

(From the Index, click on 700: Murder and the specific the charge filed in this case)

700.1 Murder In The First Degree - Premeditation, Willfulness, Deliberation - Elements

1. On or about the _____ day of __________, 19____, the defendant [shot] [struck] [appropriate word or phrase] (victim).

2. (Victim) died as a result of being [shot] [struck] appropriate word or phrase].

3. The defendant acted with malice aforethought.

4. The defendant acted willfully, deliberately, premeditatedly and with a specific intent to kill (victim).

If the State has proved all of the elements, the defendant is guilty of Murder In The First Degree. If the State has failed to prove any one of the elements, the defendant is not guilty of Murder In The First Degree (and you will then consider the charge of __________________ explained in Instruction No. ______).

After that comes:
700.2 Murder In The First Degree - Participating In A Forcible Felony - Elements. The State must prove all of the following elements of Murder In The First Degree. <snipped>
If the State has proved all of the elements, the defendant is guilty of Murder In The First Degree. If the State has failed to prove any one of the elements, the defendant is not guilty of Murder In The First Degree (and you will then consider the charge of ________________ explained in Instruction No. _____).

And so forth as appropriate, deemed by the Judge

My impression has always been that the prosecution had to charge the defendant with both 1st and 2nd degree murder for the jury to be able to convict on the lessor charge. Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean it can't be added. One of many reasons why I never went to law school, my beliefs aren't always 100% based on facts. MOO

 

[Alethea]

I think it depends on the state and the prosecution's view on the chances. If you give lesser included charges there's a worry that jurors may decide on a lesser charge to "split the difference" if not everyone is 100% on board with 1st degree murder, when if there wasn't an option for that, they would eventually come around to 1st degree murder.

The main exception is the Supreme Court has held that in a death penalty case, you must include lesser included charges. You have to give jurors the option to convict on something less than death.

 

[MistyWaters]

My impression has always been that the prosecution had to charge the defendant with both 1st and 2nd degree murder for the jury to be able to convict on the lessor charge. Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean it can't be added. One of many reasons why I never went to law school, my beliefs aren't always 100% based on facts. MOO

If there’s more than one victim, multiple charges are possible. But in this case if CR were charged with both homicide 1 and 2 for murdering the same person, as the elements are different, it’s not possible that he could be found guilty of both. That’d suggest the State is rather uncertain of their case?

One possible reason why the State only files the highest murder charge they hope to prove, but during the trial Judge has flexibility to instruct the jury to consider certain lesser charges, is the State can’t predict what will occur during the trial in advance.

Very often the media reports cases that are appealed because of errors in Jury Instructions. Although this is a Calif website, it mentions specifically why a case can be appealed if appropriate lesser charges aren’t provided to a jury.

https://www.wklaw.com/new-trial-if-wrong-jury-instructions/

 

[oceanblueeyes]

In this case, it seems the county has not chosen the option of putting the case before a Grand Jury. I notice on the timeline below the arraignment has already occurred, the plea filed and a trial date set. A Grand Jury would’ve been involved prior to that occurring.

https://www.iowacourts.gov/static/media/cms/E0402_4AB079FBEE8C6.pdf

Thank you. I completely forgot he and his new attorneys waived his right to have a preliminary hearing on August 31st.

That's why he didn't have one because by law one is to be held within a certain time period after his arrest. It's either 10 days or 20 days unless the defendant waives it.

I have seen other murder defendants waive their PH..too even though it can give the defense attorneys a glimpse into some of the evidence early on. The defense attorneys at PHs ...are allowed to cross examine state witnesses. But it can be very risky since PHs....are open to the media and public.

Joe Duncan waived his too. Imo it is a defense strategy in order to suppress some of the evidence from being known. They know if certain details are made known to the public it can taint the potential jury pool against their client.

The cases I have seen concerning the waiving of a public PH before trial...turned out to be cases filled with a lot of graphic and heinous evidence committed by the defendant against their victim/s.

When I asked rebel about it...it had totally slipped my mind then why one wasn't held. Sorry rebel. I should have thought about it longer and I could have answered my own question. Lol

 

[Charliegizmo49]

What % of the information known to LE do you think we have? For example do we have 75%?

No I’d guess 5-10

 

[Jaclin]

I must need new glasses. I don't see a change in his appearance. Different coloring on the photo, but two photographers can take a photo at the same time and the colors be different. He has dark circles under his eyes, but many people do naturally. The trimming of his facial hair is about the only control he has in his life right now, so maybe that's why he is keeping it up. Afterall, what does he have to do for 24hrs a day?

really? there was some redness in his cheeks that I didn't notice the first time. very slight. his eyes were a little red. If it isn't some type of trick to make him look more emotional (less stone faced) by staying up for 2 days or an inability to sleep for another reason, then maybe he is coming down with something. He really didn't look good.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

It is wonderful to see your posts again.

Hi there Emma. Thank you so much.

 

[dlharris2712]

Yeah, he's an a**hole for approaching her and putting her in his trunk (likely injured), and he's a for hiding her body in a cornfield, but if the leather glove doesn't fit...

I've been trying to catch up today. If this has already been discussed I apologize but I watched the court proceedings and saw the aunt and uncle come in late but who were the other 2 men that came in with them? I assumed one was Mexican consulate

Yes. I believe (based on the first court appearance) that they are from the Consulate.

 

[Jaclin]

I don't think the defense will be nearly as hard as some people do. As long as they are only charging him with Murder One, they don't have to get the jury to doubt that he killed her; they only have to cause reasonable doubt in one or more jurors that the murder was premeditated. Unless other charges are added and/or the option of convicting of Murder Two is given, I believe he could be found not guilty. If that should happen, I think we all know that being legally not guilty sometimes has nothing to do with whether or not you committed the crime. I just hope whatever happens, it brings justice for MT, and some semblance of peace to her family. moo

I agree, I definitely think Murder 2 needs to be on the table to be considered by the jury.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

CR waived his preliminary hearing.

Mica thanks for telling me. I missed reading your post somehow until now.

 

[Jaclin]

Isn't the fact that he led LE to her body enough burden of proof???? It's enough for me.
Or am I misunderstanding here?

It's definitely proof of being involved in disposing of her body. The fact that he also admits to following her, getting angry, and putting her in the trunk is proof enough for me that he did it. It's the premeditation where the state has the most work to do, I think.

 

[Charliegizmo49]

There is a real possibility the forensic anthropologist might be able to find DNA after 5 weeks. It’s dependant on the state of MT remains and any other location of material.

That alone may add charges in this case.

Regardless I hope the ME hired a very talented, highly qualified scientist to examine the remains.

I don’t know how intelligent CR may be proven to be in court. It seems he’s made significant decisions that have certainly appeared to be very smart.