Found Deceased IA - Mollie Tibbetts, 20, Poweshiek County, 19 Jul 2018 *Arrest* #46

[MistyWaters]

BBM
So many gaps in the story that has been given to the public. LE questioned CR for hours. They had a time line they were confident of and have said CR confirmed that timeline. We have no idea how much CR filled in the gaps, perhaps inadvertently, during that long interview.
Let's say that he answered with a lie. LE could say, but her fitbit shows this or the camera at XXXXX shows this, and he came up with something more that can be pieced together into a coherent story.
CR confirmed LE's timeline.
We have only a tiny, tiny bit of the information LE had at the time of the arrest -- just enough to get a warrant -- and nothing they have accumulated since. I suspect the amount of information LE has is incredible.

Yes very good points to remind us of. It’d be a very mistaken assumption to presume the State is proceeding toward a trial with absolutely no additional evidence beyond a paragraph typed on a defendant’s affidavit of arrest.

 

[Leney]

What Brandon Lavergne admitted to in his plea deal with respect to Mickey Schunick. Read closely.

Lavergne in his plea deal, blames MS for his wounds and actions, which included stabbing and shooting her.
The sexual assault took place not far from where he hit her bike, in the vehicle.
Lavergne sought medical attention for his wounds in New Orleans, drove his truck to Texas, set it on fire (with the knowledge of his sister), purchased another truck same color, make, model.

Lavergne followed her bike in his truck
Lavergne intentionally hit Shunick’s bike
Lavergne insisted that she enter his truck (threatened either with knife or gun)
Lavergne bike in the bed of his truck

Lavergne leaves out the sexual assault which LE knew took place.

Shunick attempted to grab her cellphone to call for help
Lavergne threatened her with his knife
Shunick sprayed mace into the Defendant’s face
Shunick grabbed the Defendant’s knife and proceeded to stab the Defendant
Lavergne tried to grab the knife from Shunick, which caused him to cut tendons in his hands
Lavergne stabbed Micky at least 4 times and she fell over.
Micky lay motionless

Lavergne then drove Shunick’s motionless body to a secluded area 40 minutes away
Suddenly, Micky jumped up, with the Defendant’s knife she had regained possession of and lunged at the Defendant

Lavergne pulled his semi-automatic handgun, which he had armed himself with, and shot Micky in the head, killing her instantly.

Lavergne did not leave Shunick’s body and instead drove to his home to nurse his wounds, with her still in the passenger seat

Lavernge then drove to the area of an old cemetery in Evangeline Parish to bury the body, but was unable to dig because of his wounds

Lavernge left Micky’s body in a nearby tree line, covering her body with branches and debris

Lavergne returned home to clean up more and formulate his plan
Lavergne destroyed more evidence and arranged to stay with an out-of-town friend
He dumped Shunick’s bike in a river beneath a bridge
He also disposed of the handgun and the knife

Lavergne returned the next day to where he had left Shunick’s body and buried Shunick’s body in a heavily wooded area near the old cemetery

 

[Leney]

Now lets review this map closely, that LE put on the Finding Mollie website.

Ensure that you compare specifically these areas with known information.
After review, you should be able to determine why LE chose these specific locations.

Mollie Tibbetts: Police Hone In on 5 Locations - NTD.TV

 

[Anthony D]

Yes very good points to remind us of. It’d be a very mistaken assumption to presume the State is proceeding toward a trial with absolutely no additional evidence beyond a paragraph typed on a defendant’s affidavit of arrest.

Yea, but until that information is revealed I am not going to make assumptions of what the information to fill those gaps is. I am looking solely at the information we have been told at this point only. There has been way too many assumptions on this thread and I am not going down that road.

 

[MistyWaters]

Yea, but until that information is revealed I am not going to make assumptions of what the information to fill those gaps is. I am looking solely at the information we have been told at this point only. There has been way too many assumptions on this thread and I am not going down that road.

Very true, we can’t know what we don’t know. LE has only disclosed vague reference to their prior creation of a timeline and iirc stated that technology was very important to this case. And we heard about the video revealing the black Malibu and the official cause of death. But we know nothing about other witness statements, injuries CR may have incurred coinciding with the murder, DNA analysis, testing of the Malibu including the trunk, the murder weapon, cellphone, Fitbit and possible OnStar data, the route, any additional autopsy info including what amount is multiple....I’m certain there’s more we don’t know as we’ve been informed little or nothing about the extent of LEs investigation, especially post arrest. That’s what I find most interesting about following trials - all that which goes on behind the scenes during an investigation.

Therefore I do think it’s very safe to speculate the State doesn’t plan to just sit back and only use the information typed on the affidavit as the sole piece of evidence against CR, expecting that will result in a guilty conviction. Why that would never happen, it’s an obvious opening for the witness to take the stand and simply claim he lied and made the whole story up, maybe he was walking in the cornfield one day and noticed the body. Regardless of CRs statement, whether it’s all truthful or not, during the trial the State is sure to present other evidence against him and will not shift the burden of proof onto CR in convicting himself.

 

[MistyWaters]

What Brandon Lavergne admitted to in his plea deal with respect to Mickey Schunick. Read closely.

Lavergne in his plea deal, blames MS for his wounds and actions, which included stabbing and shooting her.
The sexual assault took place not far from where he hit her bike, in the vehicle.
Lavergne sought medical attention for his wounds in New Orleans, drove his truck to Texas, set it on fire (with the knowledge of his sister), purchased another truck same color, make, model.

Lavergne followed her bike in his truck
Lavergne intentionally hit Shunick’s bike
Lavergne insisted that she enter his truck (threatened either with knife or gun)
Lavergne bike in the bed of his truck

Lavergne leaves out the sexual assault which LE knew took place.

Shunick attempted to grab her cellphone to call for help
Lavergne threatened her with his knife
Shunick sprayed mace into the Defendant’s face
Shunick grabbed the Defendant’s knife and proceeded to stab the Defendant
Lavergne tried to grab the knife from Shunick, which caused him to cut tendons in his hands
Lavergne stabbed Micky at least 4 times and she fell over.
Micky lay motionless

Lavergne then drove Shunick’s motionless body to a secluded area 40 minutes away
Suddenly, Micky jumped up, with the Defendant’s knife she had regained possession of and lunged at the Defendant

Lavergne pulled his semi-automatic handgun, which he had armed himself with, and shot Micky in the head, killing her instantly.

Lavergne did not leave Shunick’s body and instead drove to his home to nurse his wounds, with her still in the passenger seat

Lavernge then drove to the area of an old cemetery in Evangeline Parish to bury the body, but was unable to dig because of his wounds

Lavernge left Micky’s body in a nearby tree line, covering her body with branches and debris

Lavergne returned home to clean up more and formulate his plan
Lavergne destroyed more evidence and arranged to stay with an out-of-town friend
He dumped Shunick’s bike in a river beneath a bridge
He also disposed of the handgun and the knife

Lavergne returned the next day to where he had left Shunick’s body and buried Shunick’s body in a heavily wooded area near the old cemetery

Indeed there are certain similarities to this case. However my understanding is Lavergne confessed to his involvement in two murders and led LE to the body of Shunick under a plea deal, in order to escape the death penalty in Texas.

Iowa has no death penalty and CR did not provide information in exchange for a plea deal. LE claim CR was unknown to them prior to tracing him to the black Malibu that was noticed on video around the time and location of Mollie’s disappearance. After he was approached by LE, they say he was cooperative in providing information and agreed to lead them to the body. Within 24 hours, after the body recovery, he was charged with first degree murder.

 

[MistyWaters]

Now lets review this map closely, that LE put on the Finding Mollie website.

Ensure that you compare specifically these areas with known information.
After review, you should be able to determine why LE chose these specific locations.

Mollie Tibbetts: Police Hone In on 5 Locations - NTD.TV

After the fact, we have learned about the same time the map was released, LE obtained a critical video of the suspicious black Malibu.

So it would seem likely people were asked to voluntarily come forward who were in any of the 5 key areas between the hours of 5 and 10 to quickly eliminate other suspicious vehicles or people and in the faint hope the driver of the black Malibu might also present themselves.

But as the case hadn’t yet been solved when the map was released, LE would’ve still been at the stage of working theories, so determining why they chose the specific locations is impossible to know for sure.

 

[MistyWaters]

Now lets review this map closely, that LE put on the Finding Mollie website.

Ensure that you compare specifically these areas with known information.
After review, you should be able to determine why LE chose these specific locations.

Mollie Tibbetts: Police Hone In on 5 Locations - NTD.TV

After the fact, we have learned about the same time the map was released, LE obtained a critical video of the suspicious black Malibu.

So it would seem likely people were asked to voluntarily come forward who were in any of the 5 key areas between the hours of 5 and 10 to quickly eliminate other suspicious vehicles or people and in the faint hope the driver of the black Malibu might also present themselves.

But as the case hadn’t yet been solved when the map was released, LE would’ve still been at the stage of working theories, so determining why they chose the specific locations is impossible to know for sure.

 

[soap mama]

The two times CR has been in court, I have wondered about The sheriffs who lead him in and out and how hard this must be for them. I am not questioning their professionalism, but it has to be so hard. Mollie was “their” girl.

Any thoughts as to whether any of Mlie’s Family will attend the trial, as they weren’t in court for arraignment or prelim. Not throwing any shade, but I did notice.

 

[Twistinginthewind]

I am new to all this and I hope this makes sense with my limited knowledge and terminology! From what I gather, CR is trying to say he blacked out during the murder due to rage and has zero memory of the act. Now I think he just doesn't want to be accountable and it's all BS, but just trying to see all possible sides! What is interesting to me is whether he was truly "with it" during the actual murder. Is there any certified diagnosable disorder that causes an anger/rage blackout where the person is truly unaware of their actions IN the moment?

If not - and giving him a huge benefit of the doubt - could it be a possibility that he was not blacked out during the murder, but then repressed the memory out of trauma? I know normally it is the victim that has repressed memories, but maybe murdering someone violently did trigger the same "can't handle it" memory protection? Is there a time span for those kind of repressed memories - like they are retained immediately afterwards and forgotten in the days/weeks after or could someone literally repress a memory right afterwards?

Again, I don't think he blacked out or repressed anything. But in the 1% chance he has no memory of the murder, it makes a difference to me whether he was out of it during the murder or whether he was aware and then repressed. I guess it doesn't matter although maybe the former would help an insanity defense? Mostly I am just curious about the human mind and whether any of this is possible!

Welcome to WS and Mollie's thread, thanks for your post! I appreciate you're "new to all this" and were willing to put your questions out here for consideration. Although I don't either have any expertise in diagnosable memory "block out" disorders and hopefully someone who does will chime in, regarding your question "Is there any certified diagnosable disorder that causes an anger/rage blackout where the person is truly unaware of their actions IN the moment?", I think it's an interesting question. There's this information on what's called by the Mayo Clinic "Intermittent Explosive Disorder" at link below. And another link to an article discussing whether "rage blackouts actually exist" (with this excerpt that quotes the Mayo Clinic definition of the disorder):
"But while intermittent explosive disorder—characterised by “repeated, sudden episodes of impulsive, aggressive, violent behavior or angry verbal outbursts in which you react grossly out of proportion to the situation,” (the Mayo Clinic)—is generally accepted by experts, the concept of a “rage blackout” is by no means mainstream. "

No idea whether any of this could apply to CR or an insanity defense, though. JMO

Intermittent explosive disorder - Symptoms and causes

Do 'Rage Blackouts' Actually Exist?

 

[Followfacts]

Map 5 pink shaded areas. Map same 5 areas with body location.

 

[Twistinginthewind]

The bare bone facts like we normally do in other cases similar to this one.

But it is not what we know that matters. This is just a crime blog where we exchange opinions based on what facts we do know at the time.

We will not know many of the facts in evidence LE.. has gathered to date and beyond. They never divulge their best evidence until the presiding judge gives them a firm date for all discovery to be turned over to the defense when it gets closer to trial. Even then we will not learn what all they have amassed against the defendant until his trial. That is one of the reasons trials are so interesting to me. We always learn new evidence and at times it can be shocking when finally learned.

Oh let me ask you this please. I know he has been arraigned...correct? Will he have a preliminary hearing? If so we usually learn facts we didn't know because they are like mini trials. If he waives it I think the prosecutor will continue to hold his evidence close to their chest.

I find PHs..almost as interesting as the trial itself. When Scott Dylexi..murdered Pam Vitale the PH lasted 3 weeks.

Imo

Thanks, oceanblueeyes, it's always great to hear your words of wisdom, IMHO. I also have been shocked by evidence presented at trial in other cases, like Erin Corwin's murder by Christopher Lee. Like in Mollie's case, IMO, the "bare facts" in the affidavit for the arrest of the accused were/are a mere scrap in the heap of actual evidence that will be put forth by the DA to convict the suspect at trial.

 

[Twistinginthewind]

MOO it would be better to risk someone being convicted of murder 2 instead of murder 1 than allowing that person the chance to just get off right away and go kill again. I can see the death penalty actually encouraging people to vote for Murder 2...people that feel like they don't want to be responsible for someone's death, and especially if they aren't 100% convinced they meant to kill them and not just threaten or scare them. I think the opposite might be true in a state with no death penalty. I know rules are rules but people are people, and if someone is sitting on the edge they might be more likely to vote murder 1 in a state with no death penalty. the attitude that they aren't 100% sure it was premeditated, but they're sure they did it, and they figure why not lock the gate and throw away the key. no use deliberating on it for days and losing sleep over it when everyone else is convinced. the worse thing that happens is someone who took someone's life never enjoys freedom again. well, the person they killed will never enjoy freedom on Earth again, either. I wouldn't feel too bad if I later found out I convicted someone of Murder 1 in a state with no death penalty and they really didn't premeditate. I would feel bad if I convicted someone to death, and it turned out they really didn't mean to kill them.

Thanks, I wasn't acutely aware of the difference between Murder One and Two until I read this post and tried to catch up on discussion here on Mollie's thread. I was focused on the amount of time CR could get in prison in Iowa and was uninformed . This 'primer' (excerpt and link to article below) is helpful to me to 'get' the differences, and potential implications for CR being charged by the DA for Murder One:

To help make sense of the degrees of murder, we’re going to start with the two most serious crimes in the murder spectrum, and pinpoint just what differs between a first and second degree killing.

First degree murder falls into one of the following two categories:

• Premeditated, intentional killings
• Felony murder

While second degree murder is either:

• An unplanned, intentional killing; or
• A death caused by a reckless disregard for human life

Putting aside felony murder, the real difference between first and second degree murder is the degree of intent under which the defendant acted when carrying out the killing.

First degree murder requires that a defendant plan and intentionally carry out the killing, whereas second degree murder requires that the killing either be intentional or reckless, and occur in the spur of the moment.

Taking the time to plan another’s death is arguably a more serious crime.

An outlier, felony murder is a form of first degree murder that occurs when a person dies—even accidentally—during the commission of a violent felony.

For instance, if a robber unintentionally kills a patron in a liquor store, he’s still committed first degree murder.

While it’s easy to pinpoint the differences between degrees of murder in a theoretical manner, this is not always the case in real life. When faced with evidence, there is often a very fine line between a first and second degree killing. If you have been charged with a serious crime, get in touch with a criminal defense attorney as soon as possible. It will make all the difference.

Difference Between First and Second Degree Murder?

 

[MistyWaters]

From Iowa Court Records - Rivera, Cristhian

ORDER SETTING HEARING YATES JOEL D 09/19/2018 09/19/2018 09/19/2018
Comments: TRIAL MANAGEMENT HEARING 12/12/2018 09:30 AM 79DI.
INTERPRETER NOTIFIED THRU EMAIL
https://www.iowacourts.state.ia.us/ESAWebApp/TrialSimpFrame

Does anyone what’s the purpose of a “Trial Management Hearing”? The most I’m able to find by google indicates this type of hearing is associated to family court and pertains to dispute resolution in order to avoid a trial. In a Criminal Case is the function different or might this hearing possibly involve plea deal negotiations? But I certainly don’t want to start rumours......although my curiosity is piqued.

 

[Mica]

From Iowa Court Records - Rivera, Cristhian

ORDER SETTING HEARING YATES JOEL D 09/19/2018 09/19/2018 09/19/2018
Comments: TRIAL MANAGEMENT HEARING 12/12/2018 09:30 AM 79DI.
INTERPRETER NOTIFIED THRU EMAIL
https://www.iowacourts.state.ia.us/ESAWebApp/TrialSimpFrame

Does anyone what’s the purpose of a “Trial Management Hearing”? The most I’m able to find by google indicates this type of hearing is associated to family court and pertains to dispute resolution in order to avoid a trial. In a Criminal Case is the function different or might this hearing possibly involve plea deal negotiations? But I certainly don’t want to start rumours......although my curiosity is piqued.

I wonder if Trial Management Hearing is another term used for Case Management Hearing?


A Case Management Hearing is a hearing—a pretrial hearing that is set after an arraignment. Now, the purpose of the Case Management Hearing is two things. The Judge wants to know, at a Case Management Hearing if there's any problems with discovery. The Judge will also want to know if there's any plea offer that has been made in the case. Most cases—most criminal cases do get resolved with plea offers. The Judge wants to know if one has been made.

What is a Case Management Hearing? | The Law Offices of Shawn B. Hamp

 

[MistyWaters]

I wonder if Trial Management Hearing is another term used for Case Management Hearing?


A Case Management Hearing is a hearing—a pretrial hearing that is set after an arraignment. Now, the purpose of the Case Management Hearing is two things. The Judge wants to know, at a Case Management Hearing if there's any problems with discovery. The Judge will also want to know if there's any plea offer that has been made in the case. Most cases—most criminal cases do get resolved with plea offers. The Judge wants to know if one has been made.

What is a Case Management Hearing? | The Law Offices of Shawn B. Hamp

Yes I think you’re right, it’s very possible it’s just another term for Case Mngt Conference. . One reference did note what is a “Trial Management Hearing” can differ between jurisdictions.

 

[Alethea]

I wonder if Trial Management Hearing is another term used for Case Management Hearing?


A Case Management Hearing is a hearing—a pretrial hearing that is set after an arraignment. Now, the purpose of the Case Management Hearing is two things. The Judge wants to know, at a Case Management Hearing if there's any problems with discovery. The Judge will also want to know if there's any plea offer that has been made in the case. Most cases—most criminal cases do get resolved with plea offers. The Judge wants to know if one has been made.

What is a Case Management Hearing? | The Law Offices of Shawn B. Hamp

Yes I think that's right. A case management hearing is mainly a way to get on a Judge's calendar for everyone to check in that discovery is proceeding and address any motions that will be made. In run-of-the-mill cases they are 10, 20 minutes unless there are specific issues that need to be discussed. Judges have discretion over their cases and some like to feel involved and on top of what is going on as everyone heads to trial. They don't want issues to be raised the day before trial - if someone isn't getting discovery or someone isn't notifying the other side appropriately, the judge will ask that those issues be raised at the case management hearing.

 

[Al Hoffman]

The two times CR has been in court, I have wondered about The sheriffs who lead him in and out and how hard this must be for them. I am not questioning their professionalism, but it has to be so hard. Mollie was “their” girl.

Any thoughts as to whether any of Mlie’s Family will attend the trial, as they weren’t in court for arraignment or prelim. Not throwing any shade, but I did notice.

The mark of their professionalism, is that CR does NOT have a mark on him. His hair is a little mussed, but that's because you can't get hair doo pomade in a county jail, maybe in the big house though.

I think that the big, older Deputy would love 5 minutes alone with CR in a holding room. (He looks old school.) That won't happen.

The professionalism of both the Tama and Powershiek Sheriff's Offices will be reflected in the fact that the Deputies will turn CR over to the Iowa Department of Corrections in one piece, unbrused and fatter. Afterwhitch they will go home to their families, secure that a malevolent young man will never be able to harm those they love or anyone else free and about in the open air.

By protecting CR, and keeping him safe they do their job as part of the entire machinery of Justice that will hold CR accountable for his terrible acts against Mollie. In this way they honor her. Anything less on their part would not. This is what motivates them and gives them comfort in the job they must do.

(Even if they really, truly want to wring CR's neck, and knock the stuffing out of him!)

 

[Al Hoffman]

Delete post

 

[Al Hoffman]

Yes I think that's right. A case management hearing is mainly a way to get on a Judge's calendar for everyone to check in that discovery is proceeding and address any motions that will be made. In run-of-the-mill cases they are 10, 20 minutes unless there are specific issues that need to be discussed. Judges have discretion over their cases and some like to feel involved and on top of what is going on as everyone heads to trial. They don't want issues to be raised the day before trial - if someone isn't getting discovery or someone isn't notifying the other side appropriately, the judge will ask that those issues be raised at the case management hearing.

Again, thank you for your time and patience with us Barrister!