IA IA - Rose Burkert, 22, & Roger Atkison, 32, Williamsburg, 12 Sept 1980

[mcbrainder]

I think what gets me is there was no evidence of a fight. Its like Rose just laid down and they shot her. When I was asking about jobs family had, did LE check to see if everyone was where they were supposed to be? Timecards stamped that sort of thing.

I know one of the most obvious suspects was Rose's ex boyfriend, who was questioned many times, passed a lie detector test, and had an air-tight alibi. He had been working that night, was on the clock with several witnesses.

I don't know what he did for a living, but it seems to me that this crime could have happened late, possibly after someone's shift. I've always believed it happened somewhere between 10-1, but that's just me.

Also for clarity, no one was shot, though it would seem possible that a gun may have been used to force cooperation.

 

[CursSleuth]

I know one of the most obvious suspects was Rose's ex boyfriend, who was questioned many times, passed a lie detector test, and had an air-tight alibi. He had been working that night, was on the clock with several witnesses.

I don't know what he did for a living, but it seems to me that this crime could have happened late, possibly after someone's shift. I've always believed it happened somewhere between 10-1, but that's just me.

Also for clarity, no one was shot, though it would seem possible that a gun may have been used to force cooperation.

The murders likely happened around 9:40pm-10pm. Right after Rose went from the park or bar. The killer followed her at some distance and stroke right when she was entering the room or minutes after with the killer knocking at the door saying he was the motel manager or room service. However in that situation, Roger would have dressed unless Rose was the one asnwering the door and he stayed in the bathroom. How could you think the murder happened at 11pm, midnight or even 1am? With Rose dressed? How come?

 

[mcbrainder]

The murders likely happened around 9:40pm-10pm. Right after Rose went from the park or bar. The killer followed her at some distance and stroke right when she was entering the room or minutes after with the killer knocking at the door saying he was the motel manager or room service. However in that situation, Roger would have dressed unless Rose was the one asnwering the door and he stayed in the bathroom. How could you think the murder happened at 11pm, midnight or even 1am? With Rose dressed? How come?

I'm not 100% sold on the car being moved as the point of entry. If it were the step-father and CRH, then that would be my guess, but if half-brother was involved, other possibilities open.

We know there were two calls to or from the babysitter (mother) and another unknown call.

Call one to babysitter seems pretty standard. "Hey, I just wanted you to know I'm at the ____ and my number is ______ if there's any emergencies."

Call two could've been a lot of things. It could have been something Rose just forgot to say, but I can also see call two being relevant to who was coming. "Hey, your brother is out that way and wants to talk to you. Is it okay if I tell him how to reach you?"

Maybe call three connected to all that further. And if she made a call from the bar, and if she was acting in a way that caused a confrontation, then it's possible she knew he was coming. Maybe she met him at the bar. Maybe outside. Maybe he said "I just want to meet this guy."

Maybe he was pissed off and a conversation escalated. He was probably not happy she was with a guy in a hotel out of town while mother is watching the kid (assuming babysitter is mom). She might have stood up to him with Roger's help. It's possible a conversation surfaced that hinted at, or addressed, sexual abuse. Maybe Roger even knew family drama when half-brother enters and confronts him about things he's done to Rose. It seems that all three in the room would have had secrets they wouldn't want exposed.

Then there's the idea that maybe Rose's daughter is also half-brother's. Not saying that's true, but if it is, he has some real investment in how that kid is raised. The fact that he cared for her after Rose died would prove that he must have made some kind of effort or earned some kind of right to that child.

If it was half-brother, I'm about 50/50 on the possibility of just being followed and wedging his way into the room. I think the phone calls matter. I think mother as a babysitter matters. I still think the bar encounter matters. I think there would have been a somewhat sizable conversation or confrontation. I would personally move the time of death back due to all of this.

 

[4SAM]

Oops, my blunder on the gun being used. Could she had been "punched" and knocked out before the actual blows that were sustained to her? He had defense wounds. She didn't, right?

 

[mcbrainder]

Oops, my blunder on the gun being used. Could she had been "punched" and knocked out before the actual blows that were sustained to her? He had defense wounds. She didn't, right?

It was never reported that she was punched. That could have been left out deliberately, but I never heard anything other than blows to the back of the head with a sharp object.

They weren't covered until after the murders, so they would have had to lay face down and both been killed pretty quickly. Think about the first blow and what it would do. You'd probably start moving around frantically to escape or just flail in pain. Or, the first blow is the one that kills, but then you still have person two, laying still and not running or repositioning? I do think she probably screamed but no one heard anything.

I also think Rose was first, though you'd think if it was half-brother, she'd be last. Add to the fact that Roger was in Vietnam and could probably fight to some degree, and the kill order doesn't make much sense.

I imagine that whoever did it, struck one, then the other, quickly, and then finished them off with multiple blows after. The crime-scene suggests he stood on Roger's side, maybe leaned and struck Rose, then Roger moves his hands up protectively and he strikes Roger, then back to Rose, and then back to whoever is moving more or making more noise.

One man restraining two people can't be easy, but I'm still under the belief that they didn't know what was going to happen until it happened and they were given a false promise or security.

There's also the possibility that there WAS a struggle and Roger was struck a fatal blow that killed him. Rose was a witness and had to go too. Maybe their bodies were positioned on the bed and he repeatedly stabbed them at that point. Maybe the message on the mirror was something like "I didn't mean to do this"

A lot of possibilities.

 

[mcbrainder]

Here's another thought I had and I used to question:

I always thought that it was strange that Rose had a babysitter for the whole weekend, considering the cost and the trust in just having some other person watch your two year old. Looking back, mother as babysitter makes a ton of sense, since that would be a more trusted route.

If you navigate your way to Roger's wife at the time, she was also babysitting kids from her church for the weekend. They liked Roger and his wife told them they would be able to visit Roger over the weekend, but changed the plans when the weekend came up. This was because last minute, Roger told her he was going to just stay out of town for the weekend and not come home, which probably upset her.

Move back to Rose now. Rose had been spending a few days with Roger out of town. She'd also spent some days with her own mother leading up to this. If the weekend plans were a last minute decision (supported by no hotel reservations), then mother would have had to agree to babysit on a whim and her daughter had already been left with mother for a few days before the murder.

Let's say all this is true and mother and half-brother have a conversation and half-brother learns that Rose is leaving town with another man for the weekend. She already hasn't been with her child the last couple of days and now she's just going to leave and Mom is going to take care of her. Half brother is probably not happy and this whole situation has come to a head. Like I said earlier, whatever caused him to visit her must have been urgent to interrupt her late at night in an out-of-town hotel.

I truly believe that if half-brother was involved, then the whole point of this was confrontation that turned bad.

He may have expressed anger when he spoke to Mom and maybe Mom said "we can talk to her when she gets back," but he said "No, I'm going to see them and tell this guy to leave her alone." The aftermath of that is a couple of phone calls and Rose in a panic because brother is coming to see them. Maybe she wants to make arrangements to meet him somewhere else. Maybe that's what the bar was all about. Maybe she thought he was supposed to meet her at the bar but he doesn't show so she calls the room from the bar.

All a lot of guesswork, but this scenario fits, in my opinion.

 

[4SAM]

Why did they give custody to her half brother and not the mother??

 

[mcbrainder]

Why did they give custody to her half brother and not the mother??

I have no idea. I know half-brother had been trying to have a baby without luck at that point, though after they took custody of Rose's daughter, they did have another daughter.

 

[4SAM]

Are court papers regarding custody be on file for the public to have access to?

 

[mcbrainder]

Are court papers regarding custody be on file for the public to have access to?

I couldn't find anything. Maybe you'd have more luck.

 

[CursSleuth]

There's also the possibility that there WAS a struggle and Roger was struck a fatal blow that killed him. Rose was a witness and had to go too. Maybe their bodies were positioned on the bed and he repeatedly stabbed them at that point. Maybe the message on the mirror was something like "I didn't mean to do this"
A lot of possibilities.

That's the problem with this case. We have zero certainty of facts without proper Police reports. Look at the Keddie Murders. They happened in 1981 and there is a private/personal website running with plenty police reports and material. How come?

Regarding the quote, I think I've read specifically that police found alot of blood in the wall above the headboard and in the headboard itself. If that's the case, it clearly indicates that they were bludgeoned with an axe-type object in their heads while laying face down on the motel bed. Or it's another gossip and if we could read the LE report it'll showed other thing completely different?

 

[4SAM]

Have either of you ever reached out to her friend Tammy?

 

[mcbrainder]

Have either of you ever reached out to her friend Tammy?

I've talked to her multiple times. I'm trying to get some information from her now but I haven't heard from her in a week.

I'm trying to get some clarity on the family tree. I'm close but there's some missing pieces.

 

[mcbrainder]

It's somewhat amazing what's NOT online. I can find bits and pieces here and there and have linked people through obituaries, but I honestly can't figure out the most important family links in this case.

 

[4SAM]

Same here, i am pretty good online. But there are no obits for Rose or her father. I found his SS# and age. pics of the gravestones. We really need a chart of the key players and whether they are alive or not.

 

[mcbrainder]

Same here, i am pretty good online. But there are no obits for Rose or her father. I found his SS# and age. pics of the gravestones. We really need a chart of the key players and whether they are alive or not.

I agree. I'm trying to find when her mother married into that family. I have the father's name of the half-family and all the siblings. I have Rose's father, who died two years before, the name of her mother and where she's located, but not much else.

Her mother, who may have been the babysitter, through online searches is not linked to anyone. Doesn't even list previous marriages or mention kids.

 

[supergirl_nc]

Hi! Newbie here. If we are going with the brother as the suspect, I find it hard to believe that one would see the other killed without screaming or trying I escape. What about this scenario. One was killed while the other was out of the room. I would assume Rose would be the one out of the room since she was still dressed. She leaves to move the car and stops by the bar (maybe afterward) where the confrontation with the bartender occurs. While this is happening, half brother arrives to the room (he knows the number from mom?), knocks or walks right in (these were the days before automatic locks and key cards). He has it out with Roger and kills him. Then Rose arrives back to the room and he grabs her as she enters. From the diagram of the room, she wouldn't have been able to see Roger dead on the bed for a few steps. Half brother then kills her. Once his rage settles he goes to the bathroom to wash the blood away. Grabs the soap, maybes scribbles something out of guilt then tries to get rid of it. Carries the soap in the room with him, sits in the chair, and whittles (I tear paper when I'm nervous, my hands have to stay busy) at it out while he decides his next step.

 

[mysterymike]

Hi! Newbie here. If we are going with the brother as the suspect, I find it hard to believe that one would see the other killed without screaming or trying I escape. What about this scenario. One was killed while the other was out of the room. I would assume Rose would be the one out of the room since she was still dressed. She leaves to move the car and stops by the bar (maybe afterward) where the confrontation with the bartender occurs. While this is happening, half brother arrives to the room (he knows the number from mom?), knocks or walks right in (these were the days before automatic locks and key cards). He has it out with Roger and kills him. Then Rose arrives back to the room and he grabs her as she enters. From the diagram of the room, she wouldn't have been able to see Roger dead on the bed for a few steps. Half brother then kills her. Once his rage settles he goes to the bathroom to wash the blood away. Grabs the soap, maybes scribbles something out of guilt then tries to get rid of it. Carries the soap in the room with him, sits in the chair, and whittles (I tear paper when I'm nervous, my hands have to stay busy) at it out while he decides his next step.

Good scenario, and something like that was certainly possible.

It seems this could only have happened if Roger himself went to the door looked out the peephole and recognized who was on the other side. And the person on the other side would have had to do a good job at hiding the weapon, because he wouldn't have had a coat on that time of year. And it's not that easy to hide a weapon that is somewhat large, and I believe the weapon had to be somewhat large to do the damage it did. If it was a person acting as a maintenance man, I can't see Roger answering the door the way he was dressed, but who knows.

I don't believe the killer was just able to walk right in, because even back then motel doors would automatically lock when they shut, and I can't see Roger leaving the door open some when he was lounging around in his underwear. But then again, I don't know what his personality was like. If I knew, that would help alot.

It's also possible that the killer was already in the room before Rose even moved the car and/or went to the bar, thinking at that time their lives were not in danger. She could have come back and the killer could have already killed Roger. Just a theory.

Maybe this is where the argument with the bartender comes in. Rose knew who was in the room and was somewhat hysterical about it and was telling the bartender about it and the bar patrons just thought they were arguing. Who knows for sure. Maybe this explains the bartenders sudden disappearance the next day.

See, this is why I like for people to come to this thread and give us their theories like you have done Supergirl-nc, because it puts forth different angles and theories that others may have not thought of before. And I never thought about this angle before. Right now I can't think of a good reason to debunk this theory, but maybe others might be able to.

By the way, welcome to the conversation Supergirl-nc.

 

[mysterymike]

I agree. I'm trying to find when her mother married into that family. I have the father's name of the half-family and all the siblings. I have Rose's father, who died two years before, the name of her mother and where she's located, but not much else.

Her mother, who may have been the babysitter, through online searches is not linked to anyone. Doesn't even list previous marriages or mention kids.

I would think that Rose's best friend Tammy would know for sure who was babysitting. You might ask her.

 

[mysterymike]

I have no idea. I know half-brother had been trying to have a baby without luck at that point, though after they took custody of Rose's daughter, they did have another daughter.

Speaking of half-brother, do you know how he died and how old he was?