ID - 2 year boy accidentally shoots and kills mother in walmart in ths US

[MyBelle]

Just to go back for a moment on the strength required to pull the trigger, I am not convinced a 2yo could do this. Are we certain the mom did not, in any way, have her hand near the weapon? How close to the weapon was she when it was fired?
My 3yo granddaughter could not pull the trigger. No way. Not even with both of her tiny pointing fingers inside the trigger pull and the butt of the gun against her chest. That requires a great sum of ambidexterity few young children possess.

It is surprising a child so young was able to pull the trigger and it raises the issue of a possible flaw in the design of the gun.

 

[jjenny]

She left the kid and her purse in her shopping card.
She was several feet way from the card at the time of getting shot, from what was reported.
Is that responsible gun ownership and concealed carry?

 

[Sonya610]

Just to go back for a moment on the strength required to pull the trigger, I am not convinced a 2yo could do this.

It really depends on the type of gun. Double Action handguns typically have a very long/hard trigger pull to prevent accidental firing. Single action handguns often have much lighter trigger pulls because the shooter had to the gun or pull the slide to ready it for fire, they also usually have safeties.

People can also have the trigger adjusted, I have a S&W .38 double action that had a 13 lb trigger pull, no way could a 2 year old have fired it (I didn't even like it so I had a gunsmith lighten the pull by half).

 

[Brightbird]

I could almost agree with you but I look at Aus/Canada/US and see the bias. I wouldn't want a politician or other deciding whom they favor and that is exactly how it is in Canada currently. Law says you can carry but a bureaucratic police commish decides who gets the permits. So far almost none, only the privileged and no regress. Not even for wilderness carry in most cases.

Plus I saw problems with the Lyndt fiasco and the Aussie laws around it.

Laws lately in the US tend to reduce freedom rather than expand it. We have become a nation of mediocrity based on the lowest common denominator existing in society and the partisan leverage philosophy.

What law prevents accidents or the free will a person has to THINK for themselves? What specific law would one write to prevent a mistake? an accident?

One conclusion I've come to is that, for the most part, America and Australia can't really be compared on gun laws. Our histories and values are just too different. I'm not sure which Aussie laws you're referring to, but I assume it's the ban on owning guns for self protection? There's about as much chance of that changing as there is that America would ban guns for that use. What is the bias that you see in Aussie gun laws? Most Australians are ideologically opposed to ordinary citizens owning guns for protection. At least that's the impression I get living in a major city. The notion of a tyrannical government that we need to be armed against is virtually absent from our national psyche. The emphasis on individual rights and freedoms seems to be different here than in America. I think the general consensus here is that we accept things like the (extremely rare) Lindt "fiasco", organised crime gangs with guns, and the occasional domestic shooting as a reasonable trade-off. Nobody I know walks around in fear because they might be unarmed and attacked. We feel safer knowing our neighbours, the drug crazed psychotic on the train, or the person sitting next to you in a coffee shop is almost certainly not carrying a gun. Someone might say that we are not actually any safer and we're just deluded, but the statistics don't show that more guns would fix that. This doesn't mean that we're lacking personal responsibility or that we're brainwashed slaves to bureaucrats or whatever. That would be as unfair as calling all gun owning Americans "gun nuts".

In principle I have no problem with laws that reduce freedom in one area if the gain is freedom in another area. I have limits obviously and I haven't given it too much thought before. I do find it ironic though that hardcore gun rights lobby groups advocate for more freedom by appealing to fear. Is that really getting people to think for themselves? It goes both ways. If people have guns with no restrictions then they have to think for themselves and not act recklessly on personal politics, impulses or emotion.

I don't really see how a specific law can stop people thinking for themselves either. Anyone who is half-way intelligent can evaluate whether a law is in their own interests or at least consistent with their own values. If anyone's 100% relying on a law to prevent them having accidents then the problem is the person not the law. When I'm crossing at the lights I still look out for cars and they look out for me. The set of rules we both follow mean that if one of us has a lapse in awareness an accident is less likely. But I have to think for myself because unexpected things do happen. I'm not saying accidents won't still happen though, just that laws can change behaviour to the point where they're less likely.

 

[CHERIE.T]

I don't see too many people all that shaken up about the 2,000 children under 14 accidentally killed by cars every year. It is, after all, just a side effect.

When it becomes commonplace for people to read a news story about a child being killed in a traffic accident, and then subsequently call for universal 10mph speed limits, mandatory car-passenger helmet laws, and all-steel cars built like hummers, then I'll believe that those people actually care about saving children's lives. When I see that kind of reaction only over gun deaths, but not about anything else, it's fairly clear that people care mainly about banning guns, and not so much about saving children's lives.

^^^^^^ that.
imoo

 

[Sonya610]

Interesting ideas in this video about the case (watch at 2:30 mark). They even make retention holsters that require pressing a button to release the firearm, never heard of them before but that is a neat option for handbag carry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rWjDEq4TLg

 

[Elley Mae]

Interesting ideas in this video about this case (watch at 2:30 mark). They even make retention holsters that require pressing a button to release the firearm, never heard of them before but that is a neat option for handbag carry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rWjDEq4TLg

IIRC most police use retention holsters, not sure if it would work in a purse. jmo

A Level ll holster example is one where a thumb-break is released then the pistol must be moved (rocked forward or rearwards) in the holster to clear some form of internal locking device before it can be drawn.

For most police, a Level ll retention holster offers the best balance between draw speed and holster retention. The number of the holster retention devices present needs to be balanced with the amount of training time available to ingrain the draw technique. The simpler the draw requirements are, the more likely they will continue to work when conditions aren’t optimal. A Level ll represents a happy medium between too little retention and the problems that begin to occur when the level of retention is too great.

http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Conway/duty_holster_considerations.htm

 

[Sonya610]

For most police, a Level ll retention holster offers the best balance between draw speed and holster retention. The number of the holster retention devices present needs to be balanced with the amount of training time available to ingrain the draw technique.

Yeah, I thought about that, would have to practice getting the gun out of the holster a whole lot to prevent problems. They are neat but I don't think I would buy one, if I start carrying again a hard sided holster would be enough for safe purse carry.

It would have been a good additional safety option for the woman in this case though. Course it sounds like she didn't take any precautions at all, and if she was a few feet away when she was shot then the baby most likely DID pull the gun out and aim it at her, which means it was a very light and very easy to fire weapon.

 

[Sonya610]

Article says she was carrying a 9 mm Smith & Wesson M&P Shield semi-automatic. That is small gun (less than an inch thick) and it DOES have a safety. She must have had it chamber loaded without the safety on. Wow.

http://www.idahostatesman.com/2015/...entist-shot-by-son-was.html?sp=/99/1687/&rh=1

 

[Elley Mae]

Trigger Pull: 6.5 lbs. +/-


http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...80153_757781_757781_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y

 

[kline]

Who'd have thought that Hayden, Idaho was such a crime infested place that a loaded handgun was needed for an outting to Wal-Mart?

My sympathies to the children.

It isnt.
As a life long Idaho resident (and gun owner) I assure you its entirely possible to navigate the mean streets of freaking Hayden without being strapped.
And the chances of encountering situation where your not going to have the time for the half a second it takes to work the slide are nearly non existant.
The only time an automatic should have the safety off and one in the pipe is if its in your hand and you are about to fire.
How you can be 'passionate' and a range frequenting 'gun enthusiast' yet leave a hot weapon in a shopping cart with a two year old regardless of what trendy accessory your packing it in is beyond me.
There are way too many folks these days carrying out of political posturing with zero sense of responsibilty.

 

[Elley Mae]

Accident

An accident or a mishap is an incidental and unplanned event or circumstance, often with lack of intention or necessity. It usually implies a generally negative outcome which might have been avoided or prevented had circumstances leading up to the accident been recognized, and acted upon, prior to its occurrence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accident

 

[Sonya610]

And the chances of encountering situation where your not going to have the time for the half a second it takes to work the slide are nearly non existant.

Holding a baby would be one of those times. Plus slides make noise and that could be a big problem depending on the situation, and it makes firing from inside a handbag impossible. In addition many women (and men with weak hands) have a bit of a hard time pulling back the slide reliably 100% of the time.

 

[SuzDuJour]

What are the stats these days? You're 4X (?) more likely to be shot by your own gun or by your family member, than by an intruder/stranger? Has a thread been started for the Police Chief that accidentally shot his wife at 4:00 am in their bedroom in GA?

 

[Sonya610]

What are the stats these days? You're 4X (?) more likely to be shot by your own gun or by your family member, than by an intruder/stranger? Has a thread been started for the Police Chief that accidentally shot his wife at 4:00 am in their bedroom in GA?

The majority of "shot by your own gun" incidents involve suicide; that is a personal choice and not an accident. Countries with a ban on firearms do NOT have a lower incident of suicides, the people just use different methods. Another huge percentage is domestic violence related, which is often a predictable risk.

When someone "accidentally" shoots their spouse I can't help but think hmmmmm...

 

[CoolJ]

It is interesting that most gun owners seem to cite personal safety as their number one reason for owning. Yet the statistics clearly show that owning a gun actually increases your chances of being shot and killed. Suicide plays a part in those statistics and it is true that if someone is going to commit suicide they will find a way.

But the studies also show that those in possession of a gun and the victim of assault; are much more likely to be killed (http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/abs/10.2105/AJPH.2008.143099). Isn't that the opposite of what gun owners are trying to accomplish?

When you factor the above statistics with the possibility of an "accident" as seen in this case, owning a gun personally, for me it doesn't make sense. The research tells us owning guns are a health risk. Period



In the interest of full disclosure, I am Canadian and wouldn't even know how to go about buying a handgun. I don't think I have even seen one other than Law Enforcement and on TV.

 

[Sonya610]

But the studies also show that those in possession of a gun and the victim of assault; are much more likely to be killed (http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/abs/10.2105/AJPH.2008.143099). Isn't that the opposite of what gun owners are trying to accomplish?

When you factor the above statistics with the possibility of an "accident" as seen in this case, owning a gun personally, for me it doesn't make sense. The research tells us owning guns are a health risk. Period

In the interest of full disclosure one small segment of U.S. society (a demographic that comprises about 6.5% of the total population) accounts for 50% of all murderers in the U.S., in addition murder is the leading cause of death for individuals in that segment.

That does NOT represent the vast majority of LEGAL gun owners, in fact quite the opposite.

 

[CoolJ]

In the interest of full disclosure one small segment of U.S. society (a demographic that comprises about 6.5% of the total population) accounts for 50% of all murderers in the U.S., in addition murder is the leading cause of death for individuals in that segment.

That does NOT represent the vast majority of LEGAL gun owners, in fact quite the opposite.

I will do some research, but I think these stats are based off of Legal gun ownership.
For example, Wyoming has the highest percentage of household gun ownership and a corresponding incidence of gun deaths. The same is true for all states. For every 1% increase in gun ownership, there is an equal increase in gun deaths for that state. More guns = more gun deaths.

 

[Sonya610]

I will do some research, but I think these stats are based off of Legal gun ownership.
For example, Wyoming has the highest percentage of household gun ownership and a corresponding incidence of gun deaths. The same is true for all states. For every 1% increase in gun ownership, there is an equal increase in gun deaths for that state. More guns = more gun deaths.

Yes please do research. I don't believe for one second that the report included only "legal gun ownership" unless of course they factored in suicides.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

It is surprising a child so young was able to pull the trigger and it raises the issue of a possible flaw in the design of the gun.

Or raises the issue of a major flaw in the parenting .. I'm waiting to hear how the child was able to take the gun out, point, and shoot the mother when she was a few feet away from him.