ID - 2 year boy accidentally shoots and kills mother in walmart in ths US

[nrdsb4]

^^^Well, you asked what "gun culture" even means, and it seems to me that they were the perfect illustration of that. Many people own guns (DH has two hunting rifles) but don't consider themselves to be "gun people." People who have lots of guns, like to shoot them a lot, carry them on their persons at all times, talk a lot about them and/or socialize with others in a gun centered medium could reasonably be described as "gun people," or part of the "gun culture." I don't think the term "gun culture" necessarily has a negative connotation to everyone who uses the term.

 

[sonjay]

Totally agree. It definitely doesn't make me think of people wanting to kill people. Nor is it a "code word" for wanting to ban guns. I do get that there is some negative judgement with the term "gun culture" in certain contexts (but not all - Aussies have a "beach culture" and a "footy culture" but that's not offensive), but I really am fascinated and confused by the animosity and defensiveness that comes from both sides of this debate.

I don't object to the term "gun culture."

I do object to promiscuous use of terms such as "instruments of death" and "stupid gun culture obsession."

Do you seriously not understand why peaceful, law-abiding gun owners would object to such terms?

 

[sonjay]

The easy solution for this would be to stop arguing with the anti-gun people when the anti-gun people actually agree with them.

If pro-gun people attack anti-gun people for expressing the opinion that unsafe gun storage that puts children in danger is irresponsible it is totally counterproductive because it gives the very impression that they're trying to avoid: that advocating responsible gun practices is something that pro-gun people are against.

JMO.


Everybody agrees that guns and toddlers are not a safe combination.
Everybody agrees that the parents should keep their kids safe in all circumstances.
Everybody agrees that most gun owners aren't planning to get their kids killed.

The easy solution would be for non-gun-owners to stop referring to gun ownership as "stupid gun culture obsession" and to guns as "instruments of death." You might be surprised at how non-argumentative we'd be if you merely condemned irresponsible practices and stopped being so judgmental about gun ownership in general.

 

[Donjeta]

The easy solution would be for non-gun-owners to stop referring to gun ownership as "stupid gun culture obsession" and to guns as "instruments of death." You might be surprised at how non-argumentative we'd be if you merely condemned irresponsible practices and stopped being so judgmental about gun ownership in general.

Seeing judgemental in "instruments of death" is a choice people make when they want to be offended. It's like getting offended if someone says that apples are fruit.JMO but trying so hard to deny that firearms are deadly weapons does nothing to improve the image of the gun-owners who do that. Just the opposite again.

Firearms are deadly weapons and the thousands of people who die of gunshot wounds every year could testify to the fact if they weren't dead.

Euphemisms might make you feel better but they're not going to do anything to change the facts.

All responsible gun-owners do in fact realize that they own a tool that can very easily produce death and that's precisely why they'd be motivated to be extremely responsible about handling them.

If guns were not designed to shoot flying objects with deadly force and wouldn't so easily produce death, no one would be concerned. It doesn't mean the majority of guns are ever used to kill. But it means that no one should be casual about how they handle the ones they own.

 

[Confusion]

Other factors come heavily into play. White males have the highest suicide rates in the U.S. White males also have the highest legal gun ownership rate. Suicide is highest in White and Asian populations throughout most of the developed world regardless of whether guns are prevalent or non-existent.

England has banned virtually all firearms yet their suicide rate is nearly as high as the U.S. 18 vs 20 per 100k.

Another point, the results would probably be much different if you looked at the highest legal gun ownership rate with the highest rate of suicide attempts. I believe a big part of the reason that more suicides happen in households with guns is that an attempt is more likely to be successful using a firearm than using pills, razors, CO poisoning, etc.


This has nothing to do with the quote, but I don't want to double post. I personally hate guns. I can't stand the noise, I dislocated my shoulder shooting a muzzle loader years ago, they kill cute little squirrels, bunnies and deer.... but I don't care if other people legally own them, as long as they use them responsibly. I also dislike balloons, raw tomatoes, frogs, fish, perfume, and many other things, but I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with those who like them (or even LOVE them!) It wouldn't bother me a bit if I was never within 100 miles of any of those things, but I don't care if people grow their own tomatoes, have a pond full of fish and frogs, decorate their homes with 1000s of balloons, have 100s of guns on display and wear bottles of perfume, as long as I don't have to breathe the perfumes, eat the tomatoes, frogs or fish, listen to the balloons pop or worry about getting shot by a 2 year-old while I'm grocery shopping. Too each his own, but I believe that my rights end when they endanger others (or should end) and others' rights should end when they endanger me. MOO

 

[Sonya610]

Seeing judgemental in "instruments of death" is a choice people make when they want to be offended.

Right. I suppose referring to all pro-choice Americans as "baby killers" wouldn't be judgmental either, eh?

I am pro-choice, nevertheless most can see how the term baby killers would be offensive! Even if it IS accurate!

 

[sonjay]

Seeing judgemental in "instruments of death" is a choice people make when they want to be offended. It's like getting offended if someone says that apples are fruit.JMO but trying so hard to deny that firearms are deadly weapons does nothing to improve the image of the gun-owners who do that. Just the opposite again.

Firearms are deadly weapons and the thousands of people who die of gunshot wounds every year could testify to the fact if they weren't dead.

Euphemisms might make you feel better but they're not going to do anything to change the facts.

All responsible gun-owners do in fact realize that they own a tool that can very easily produce death and that's precisely why they'd be motivated to be extremely responsible about handling them.

If guns were not designed to shoot flying objects with deadly force and wouldn't so easily produce death, no one would be concerned. It doesn't mean the majority of guns are ever used to kill. But it means that no one should be casual about how they handle the ones they own.

Cars are designed to barrel down the roadway at speeds of 80+ mph. Many thousands of people die from car accidents every year. Do you refer to cars as "instruments of death"?

Penises are used to rape women many thousands of times every year. Do you refer to them as instruments of rape?

Hands and feet are used to kill people more times every year than rifles. Do you refer to hands and feet as instruments of death?

That particular phrase is a choice people make when they want to offend gun owners. People who choose to use such a phrase should not be surprised when they get push-back from peaceful, law-abiding gun owners whose guns have killed fewer people than Ted Kennedy's car.

 

[sonjay]

Right. I suppose referring to all pro-choice Americans as "baby killers" wouldn't be judgmental either, eh?

.I am pro-choice, nevertheless most can see how the term baby killers would be offensive! Even if it IS accurate!

Seeing judgmental in "baby killers" is a choice people make when they want to be offended.

 

[nrdsb4]

I choose to be offended when people call individuals who are pro choice "pro abortion." Though I think some of them are deliberately twisting the meaning.

 

[Donjeta]

Right. I suppose referring to all pro-choice Americans as "baby killers" wouldn't be judgmental either, eh?

I am pro-choice, nevertheless most can see how the term baby killers would be offensive! Even if it IS accurate!

It's just a distraction though.

 

[Donjeta]

Cars are designed to barrel down the roadway at speeds of 80+ mph. Many thousands of people die from car accidents every year. Do you refer to cars as "instruments of death"?

Penises are used to rape women many thousands of times every year. Do you refer to them as instruments of rape?

Hands and feet are used to kill people more times every year than rifles. Do you refer to hands and feet as instruments of death?

That particular phrase is a choice people make when they want to offend gun owners. People who choose to use such a phrase should not be surprised when they get push-back from peaceful, law-abiding gun owners whose guns have killed fewer people than Ted Kennedy's car.

This is just a rhetorical strawman that does nothing to further the issues, it just serves to provide an illuminating example of what I meant when I was talking about the apparent need for some gun owners to deny that guns are lethal weapons.

Yes, you can kill people with cars too. Maybe one day we will have armies buying cars for the soldiers so they can kill the enemies by driving over them.

You can kill people by making them drink too much water. Maybe one day we will see water taking its rightful place in the list of the most frequent murder weapons and we can diminish the lethality of firearms by pointing out the thousands of kids each year who die of drinking water, and water will be banned forever.

This is just rhetoric that serves nothing but distract the conversation from the real issue which is, what the hell is wrong with people who leave their firearms lying about so that toddlers can get access?

 

[LinasK]

It is normal for American citizens to be armed.

Period.

How about having a gun in your bed??? The police chief in Atlanta "accidentally" shot his wife in her sleep while he was moving his gun in the bed.
I also don't consider carrying a loaded gun into a Walmart normal. They tried to pass Open Carry in California so that the "gun culture" could carry their guns into Starbucks. Fortunately it didn't pass and Starbucks realized quickly what a negative it would be and banned them as well. I'd have never set foot in a Starbucks again, and I love Starbucks!!! Only LE carry guns in public in my area, and for that I'm grateful.

 

[sonjay]

How about having a gun in your bed??? The police chief in Atlanta "accidentally" shot his wife in her sleep while he was moving his gun in the bed.
I also don't consider carrying a loaded gun into a Walmart normal. They tried to pass Open Carry in California so that the "gun culture" could carry their guns into Starbucks. Fortunately it didn't pass and Starbucks realized quickly what a negative it would be and banned them as well. I'd have never set foot in a Starbucks again, and I love Starbucks!!! Only LE carry guns in public in my area, and for that I'm grateful.

Lots of people carry guns in my area, and for that I'm grateful.

To each his own.

 

[kline]

[QUOTE=Anymore its NOTHING but excuses and disclaimers when something like this happens.
I own guns Im not anti-gun at all but it has reached the point where even suggesting personal responsibilty or God Forbid,the consquences to others is the first step on the road to total confiscation for many of these folks.
I think some common sense prevailing would be far more useful then the paranoia that seems to obscure the issue now.

 

[kline]

Holding a baby would be one of those times. Plus slides make noise and that could be a big problem depending on the situation, and it makes firing from inside a handbag impossible. In addition many women (and men with weak hands) have a bit of a hard time pulling back the slide reliably 100% of the time.

We also dont know if the baby managed to flip the safety off(Though I remember my step father telling me "As far as you should be concerned automatics dont have a safety."
I still think you would better off carrying a live rattlesnake in your purse then an automatic with one in the pipe.
My point was the chances of encountering a life and death situation where you wouldnt have time to jack the slide is so small that it doesnt justify the REAL and present hazard to your life and others that is the result of carrying a weapon in an unsafe manner.
Of course Im aware that there are those who live their lives in constant fear of being swarmed at any moment by rampaging inner city minorities or ATF agents and arent willing to concede their option to start blazing away at once ....for their own safety or anybody elses.

 

[sonjay]

We also dont know if the baby managed to flip the safety off(Though I remember my step father telling me "As far as you should be concerned automatics dont have a safety."
I still think you would better off carrying a live rattlesnake in your purse then an automatic with one in the pipe.
My point was the chances of encountering a life and death situation where you wouldnt have time to jack the slide is so small that it doesnt justify the REAL and present hazard to your life and others that is the result of carrying a weapon in an unsafe manner.
Of course Im aware that there are those who live their lives in constant fear of being swarmed at any moment by rampaging inner city minorities or ATF agents and arent willing to concede their option to start blazing away at once ....for their own safety or anybody elses.

Oh, that's not anti-gun inflammatory rhetoric. Not at all.

 

[Caffeine]

While this is a sad incident, albeit one that was preventable, accidents like this aren't exactly common.

MILLIONS of people legally carry concealed firearms everyday. Millions of people have a gun in their vehicle. Millions of people have a gun in their bedroom.

The incessant reporting on when things go wrong is largely skewed and gives us a false sense of some sort of epidemic.

When is defensive gun use reported? Hardly ever. This story has been blowing up every conceivable news outlet, while recent stories like the Pastor in FL who returned fire and wounded a disgruntled former church employee who was out to kill him...or the good Samaritan who witnessed a man viciously assaulting a woman and held him at gunpoint until police arrived... those stories largely go unnoticed.

Half the time it's not news unless an agenda can be pushed with it.

Sent from my SGH-T769 using Tapatalk 2

 

[sonjay]

It's just a distraction though.

More women die from abortions in the U.S. every year than people die from unintentional firearm injuries.

Deaths from abortion in the U.S.:
0.6 per 100,000 procedures
http://whqlibdoc.who.int/publications/2011/9789241501118_eng.pdf

Unintentional deaths from firearms:
.26 per 100,000 population

Anyone who is pro-choice is not only a baby-killer but also a woman-killer.

Interestingly, WHO considers the U.S. abortion mortality rate to be "negligable."

But an unintentional firearm death rate less than half that of abortion is an omnipresent real and present hazard about which something must be done immediately.

 

[al66pine]

^^^Well, you asked what "gun culture" even means, ..."gun people."

. sbm

"gun people"???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Ppl who own guns, and as/when required by law, pass background checks, register guns, obtain CCW licenses,
who store guns & ammo securely, in gun safes, vaults, cabinets, other secured locations.
who use them lawfully, e.g.:

Ppl who carry while dog-walking in suburban neighborhood in which coyotes (mountain lions, etc.) are seen, attacking dogs from time to time.

Ppl who carry guns while camping, in case of bear or wild animal attack.

Ppl whose guns never leave their homes (except for range practice) w no children in the household, not even visitors.

Ppl who have gun for self defense at home, in addition to ct order of protection, against spouse, ex BF/GF, crazy stalker, ex-employee, whoever.

Ppl who shoot at ranges or on their own land.

Ppl who carry guns in lawfully licensed hunting.

Ppl who shoot in organized competition.

OR

Ppl who do not pass background checks, register guns, obtain CCW licenses, etc, as/when required by law.
who buy guns on 'the street' because they cannot pass background checks, who violate their parole or probation terms,

Ppl who use guns to commit crimes such as robbery, and/or crimes against others by shooting them.

Ppl who use guns to resolve 'differences' such as who is bigger, stronger, smarter, or whether they received the full portion at fast food drive thru.

Ppl who leave loaded guns unsecured in their homes, e.g. under sofa, on coffee table, in pocket of coat hanging in closet.

Ppl who drink to legal intox % or take street drugs, misuse Rx, and handle guns while in that condition, at home or elsewhere.


Depending on who defines, any or all of the above could be 'gun ppl.' Paraphrasing Humpty Dumpty, 'a word means what I want it to mean.'
Imo, the term is too vague to be useful in meaningful discussions, without further clarification. JM2cts.

 

[tlcya]

I cannot get the two year old and cousins out of my head. They are the ones who speak most loudly to me in this case. Just heartbreaking. And the toddler. I cannot imagine how difficult a thing to process later the knowledge of having inadvertently ended your beloved mama's life. Lots of prayers for all the kids who witnessed this awful event.