ID - 2 year boy accidentally shoots and kills mother in walmart in ths US

[sonjay]

I see everyone picked up on the fact that this is based on a projection, not on actual existing stats.

Did anyone notice that the linked article also said, falsely, "while suicides, accidents and domestic violence with guns continue to increase"?

Even the projected data, even including suicides which should not and cannot validly be included in such comparisons, show gun deaths continuing to decrease.

Did anyone notice that the original article also focused only on deaths of people under 25? Not "all Americans," as the snippet suggested?

So we have projected data, not actual data, we have an outright lie about gun deaths increasing, and we have a narrow focus on a specific age group that is reported as if it is true of all age groups.

3 lies in one article! Not bad for an anti-gun hit piece.

 

[sonjay]

www.foxnews.com/us/2015/01/15/papa-john-pizza-stands-by-employee-who-shot-armed-robber-in-self-defense/?intcmp=trending

Looks like she knew how to handle her firearm. :thumbup:

Yes, good for her!

And the who attacked her will increase the count of this year's "firearm injuries" by one.

 

[sonjay]

When we look at actual data, we see a different picture:

 

[CoolJ]

There are about 30,000 auto deaths each year and about 11,000 homicides using a firearm. The articles like to imply every American's risk of dying by gunshot is the SAME as being killed in an auto crash, as if firearms are these random killers that could suddenly decide to take your life just the way a drunk driver on the highway might. That could NOT be further from the truth.

Your risk of dying via gunshot depends HEAVILY on your ethnicity, gender, and conscious decisions. Murder is the leading cause of death for young black males and firearms account for the vast majority (55% of all murder victims are black).

92% of firearm suicides are committed by white individuals with the majority being white men (women still prefer poisoning/hanging by a small margin). White individuals account for the vast majority of suicides regardless of methods.

Homicide and suicide rates are usually inversely proportionate; populations with the highest homicide rates tend to have low suicide rates, and the opposite is also generally true.

According to the chart above. The same amount of people are dying by a gun as by a motor vehicle. It is the same. If you wish to divide those homicide deaths up by color or ethnicity, go for it. But I think most are just more interested in how many HUMAN BEINGS are being killed. 33000 deaths are something to be concerned about whether you give each of those deaths equal value or not.

 

[CoolJ]

When we look at actual data, we see a different picture:

View attachment 67605

This chart disregards suicides. What was being spoken of here with regards to the previous chart was total deaths by gun. You may not think it to be valid, but it is. The more I learn about suicide, the more I realize it is a spontaneous decision. If suicidal folks didn't have such easy access to guns, they may not decide to shoot themselves.

What is wrong with trying to prevent needless deaths? You agree right?
<modsnip>

 

[sonjay]

According to the chart above. The same amount of people are dying by a gun as by a motor vehicle. It is the same. If you wish to divide those homicide deaths up by color or ethnicity, go for it. But I think most are just more interested in how many HUMAN BEINGS are being killed. 33000 deaths are something to be concerned about whether you give each of those deaths equal value or not.

Which chart? The one that uses "projections" and narrowly focuses on people under 25 and includes suicide in its count?

We've talked about this already. Suicide is different. Suicide is neither an accident nor a homicide. Suicide is a choice, and suicide happens whether or not firearms are available.

Why don't we compare apples to apples? Since nearly 100% of motor vehicle fatalities are accidental, let's compare accidental firearm deaths to motor vehicle deaths.

I'll even let an anti-gun group give us the number of accidental firearm deaths:
"From 2005-2010, almost 3,800 people in the U.S. died from unintentional shootings."
Source: http://nyagv.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Accidental-Shootings-NYAGV.pdf

According to the DOT, from 2005-2010, 170,000 people died in car accidents. That's not even counting motorcyclists or pedestrians killed in motor vehicle accidents.
Source: http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/Main/index.aspx

633 per year from firearm accidents vs 28,333 per year from motor vehicle accidents.

Another 28,000 motorcyclists and 32,000 non-motorists were killed in traffic accidents -- for an additional 10,000 per year, or 38,000 per year total if we count all motor vehicle fatalities.

Not hardly comparable, is it?

And yet ... and yet .... there are people who panic at the thought of a peaceful-law-abiding citizen having a gun, but who think of nothing of sharing the highways at 70mph with all those people who are drunk, texting, yelling at the kids in the back seat, and just plain bad drivers. Because, apparently, cars aren't designed to kill, so the 38,000 deaths per year don't matter.

 

[sonjay]

This chart disregards suicides. What was being spoken of here with regards to the previous chart was total deaths by gun. You may not think it to be valid, but it is. The more I learn about suicide, the more I realize it is a spontaneous decision. If suicidal folks didn't have such easy access to guns, they may not decide to shoot themselves.
<snipping a piece that should be modsnipped>

Your premise is flawed. When suicidal people don't have easy access to guns, they kill themselves by other means.

 

[CoolJ]

Your premise is flawed. When suicidal people don't have easy access to guns, they kill themselves by other means.

I disagree. I think the ready availability of guns leads to more spontaneous suicides by gun. Not to mention the fact that the chances of a suicide being successful go way up if the method of choice is a gun.
Try killing yourself with a handful of Tylenol and a bottle of Canadian Whisky , as compared to shooting yourself in the head with a Glock.

No stats or charts just what my common sense tells me.

I am sure I can find statistical evidence to back it up. And I am sure you can find a chart that disproves it. Just like anything, research will tell you what you want it to.

 

[CoolJ]

Which chart? The one that uses "projections" and narrowly focuses on people under 25 and includes suicide in its count?

We've talked about this already. Suicide is different. Suicide is neither an accident nor a homicide. Suicide is a choice, and suicide happens whether or not firearms are available.

Why don't we compare apples to apples? Since nearly 100% of motor vehicle fatalities are accidental, let's compare accidental firearm deaths to motor vehicle deaths.

I'll even let an anti-gun group give us the number of accidental firearm deaths:
"From 2005-2010, almost 3,800 people in the U.S. died from unintentional shootings."
Source: http://nyagv.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Accidental-Shootings-NYAGV.pdf

According to the DOT, from 2005-2010, 170,000 people died in car accidents. That's not even counting motorcyclists or pedestrians killed in motor vehicle accidents.
Source: http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/Main/index.aspx

633 per year from firearm accidents vs 28,333 per year from motor vehicle accidents.

Another 28,000 motorcyclists and 32,000 non-motorists were killed in traffic accidents -- for an additional 10,000 per year, or 38,000 per year total if we count all motor vehicle fatalities.

Not hardly comparable, is it?

And yet ... and yet .... there are people who panic at the thought of a peaceful-law-abiding citizen having a gun, but who think of nothing of sharing the highways at 70mph with all those people who are drunk, texting, yelling at the kids in the back seat, and just plain bad drivers. Because, apparently, cars aren't designed to kill, so the 38,000 deaths per year don't matter.

Of course those deaths matter.
Your right, it is not a good comparison. Cars have a purpose other than killing. How many billions of hours do people spend driving per year? The way society is set up today, we need cars as a modern convenience to live. Also, there are many regulations and licenses for motor vehicles. I would suspect that if we just let everyone drive and not follow any rules the amount of deaths would be astronomical. The rules, regulations and licensing prevent a whole lotta needless deaths.
I suspect the same would hold true with guns.

 

[CoolJ]

Your premise is flawed. When suicidal people don't have easy access to guns, they kill themselves by other means.

Harvard school of Public Health disagrees:
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/magazine-features/guns-and-suicide-the-hidden-toll/

 

[Sonya610]

What is wrong with trying to prevent needless deaths? You agree right?

A large portion of suicides are among the older population. If people are older, their quality of life is deteriorating, their health is failing etc... that is THEIR CHOICE.

Regarding "equality", there is nothing "equal" when it comes to the likelihood of getting shot to death. Making folks THINK everyone has the same chance is extremely misleading and done for purely political reasons.

It is like saying we all have an "equal chance" of dying from a heroin overdose.

 

[sonjay]

Harvard school of Public Health disagrees:
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/magazine-features/guns-and-suicide-the-hidden-toll/

That article is a bunch of hand-wringing by people with a phobia of guns, and also commits the flawed "correlation = causation" mistake.

Here's the suicide rate over a period of years.
https://www.afsp.org/understanding-suicide/facts-and-figures
In 1986, the suicide rate in the U.S. was 12.5 per 100,000
In 2012, the suicide rate in the U.S. was 12.5 per 100,000



Here's firearms availability in the U.S.:



I don't see much of a correlation. In fact, I don't see any correlation. According to your premise, the rate of suicide should be increasing massively.

Also, my common sense tells me that buying or owning a gun no more makes me suicidal (or homicidal) than owning a penis makes a man a rapist, nor owning a car makes a person a drunk driver. There are many many different things that cause a person to be suicidal, but owning a gun isn't one of them.

 

[CoolJ]

A large portion of suicides are among the older population. If people are older, their quality of life is deteriorating, their health is failing etc... that is THEIR CHOICE.

Regarding "equality", there is nothing "equal" when it comes to the likelihood of getting shot to death. Making folks THINK everyone has the same chance is extremely misleading and done for purely political reasons.

It is like saying we all have an "equal chance" of dying from a heroin overdose.

1) a large portion of gun suicides are "older" people? Any references for that?
2) I didn't say anything about having an "equal chance" of anything. I am merely talking about the staggering number of deaths. Each of those deaths has the same value.

 

[sonjay]

With our high rates of firearm ownership in the U.S., if guns caused suicide, shouldn't the U.S. suicide rate be off the chart here?

Suicide rates for lesbian/gay/bi/trans people are 3 times higher than the national average. Does being gay cause suicide?

Suicide rates for military veterans are double the rate of non-veterans. Does being in the military cause suicide?

Suicide rates for male adolescents are 5 times higher than the rate for female adolescents. Does being male cause suicide?

Maybe, just maybe, it's not the guns.

 

[CoolJ]

That article is a bunch of hand-wringing by people with a phobia of guns, and also commits the flawed "correlation = causation" mistake.

Here's the suicide rate over a period of years.
https://www.afsp.org/understanding-suicide/facts-and-figures
In 1986, the suicide rate in the U.S. was 12.5 per 100,000
In 2012, the suicide rate in the U.S. was 12.5 per 100,000

View attachment 67606

Here's firearms availability in the U.S.:

View attachment 67607

I don't see much of a correlation. In fact, I don't see any correlation. According to your premise, the rate of suicide should be increasing massively.

Also, my common sense tells me that buying or owning a gun no more makes me suicidal (or homicidal) than owning a penis makes a man a rapist, nor owning a car makes a person a drunk driver. There are many many different things that cause a person to be suicidal, but owning a gun isn't one of them.

If you take the penis away from the man. Can he rape?
If you take the car away from the drunk. Can he drink and drive?

 

[CoolJ]

View attachment 67608

With our high rates of firearm ownership in the U.S., if guns caused suicide, shouldn't the U.S. suicide rate be off the chart here?

Suicide rates for lesbian/gay/bi/trans people are 3 times higher than the national average. Does being gay cause suicide?

Suicide rates for military veterans are double the rate of non-veterans. Does being in the military cause suicide?

Suicide rates for male adolescents are 5 times higher than the rate for female adolescents. Does being male cause suicide?

Maybe, just maybe, it's not the guns.

Nobody said guns CAUSE suicide. But they sure do make successful suicide much easier.

 

[sonjay]

Australia, where everyone wants to think everything is peachy-keen since they effectively banned most firearms, has seen interesting suicide trends.

"This study examined the increase in the rate of suicide by hanging and an apparently simultaneous decrease in the rate of suicide by firearm as hypothetical evidence that Australian males have substituted one method of suicide for another. Trends in hanging and firearm suicide rates were examined from 1975 to 1998 for all Australian males and from 1971 to 1998 for a subset of Australian male youth, as well as a group of Australian males aged over 64 years at the time of their death. When the firearm suicide rate for Australian males declined the hanging rate increased simultaneously, with no statistical difference in the rate of change of the two methods. A similar pattern of simultaneous divergence in hanging and firearm suicide rates of a 15- to 24-year-old subgroup occurred at a not dissimilar rate over a longer time period. Rates of suicide by hanging were found to have begun increasing prior to the decline in firearm suicide. The declining rate of firearm suicide in the 15- to 24-year-old subgroup coincided with an increase in the overall suicide rate. Relationships between trends in hanging and firearm suicide differed between states and between urban and non-urban areas within Queensland, with the firearm suicide rate falling more rapidly in urban areas, especially following the introductions of restrictions to weapon purchases. Individual suicide method choice may be related to independent changes in the social acceptability of each method, as well as to an increasing prevalence of suicide in younger males, who are more likely to use the hanging method. The functioning and effect of social acceptability remains unclear, however. Intervention and prevention strategies should focus on challenging the social acceptability of hanging, especially among males aged 15 to 24 years."

They banned guns, and people killed themselves by hanging instead. In fact, there was an increase in the overall rate of suicide among young people.

So if we use the same correlation=causation approach used by the Harvard article linked by CoolJ above, then we can conclude Australia's gun ban caused an increase in the suicide rate of young people.

Or maybe it's not the guns.

ETA: Source for the abstract: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12882416

 

[sonjay]

Nobody said guns CAUSE suicide. But they sure do make successful suicide much easier.

Well, yeah, someone did:

I disagree. I think the ready availability of guns leads to more spontaneous suicides by gun.

So you're walking that back now? You don't think that guns cause suicide?

What do you think of Australia's suicide data referenced above? Do you think that the ready availability of rope leads to more spontaneous suicides by hanging?

 

[sonjay]

If you take the penis away from the man. Can he rape?
If you take the car away from the drunk. Can he drink and drive?

Whoosh! You missed the point.

Does the penis cause him to rape?
Does the car cause him to drink and drive?

The presence of a penis does not cause a man to become a rapist.
The presence of a car does not cause a person to drink and drive.

The presence of a gun does not cause a person to want to commit suicide, does not lead to more suicide, is not correlated with suicide rates in any consistent way.

Not only is it completely invalid to assert that guns cause suicide, there's not even any consistent correlation between the presence of firearms and suicide.

Canada's suicide rate is about 11.5 per 100,000 - nearly equal to the rate in the U.S. - even though, according to you, nobody has guns in Canada.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_Canada

I would guess that a smaller percentage of those is firearm suicides, but that can only mean that a higher percentage are done by other methods.

 

[daisy7]

Also from article linked above:
"In the past several decades, we’ve seen remarkable improvements in both the way motorists behave on our roadways and in the safety of the vehicles they drive,” according to a Dec. 10 statement by the agency." National Highway Traffic Safety Admin.

A bit o/t:
Did anyone involved in this study think about smart phones and similar devices?
While driving, are ppl going to spend less time -
- yakking and texting ?
- looking at GPS, weather reports, news?
- FB, IG, tweets, yada yada?

Is it poss motor vehicle death rates will increase?

Many states, including mine, have passed laws about texting/using cell phones while driving.