ID - 2 year boy accidentally shoots and kills mother in walmart in ths US

[daisy7]

There are about 30,000 auto deaths each year and about 11,000 homicides using a firearm. The articles like to imply every American's risk of dying by gunshot is the SAME as being killed in an auto crash, as if firearms are these random killers that could suddenly decide to take your life just the way a drunk driver on the highway might. That could NOT be further from the truth.

Your risk of dying via gunshot depends HEAVILY on your ethnicity, gender, and conscious decisions. Murder is the leading cause of death for young black males and firearms account for the vast majority (55% of all murder victims are black).

92% of firearm suicides are committed by white individuals with the majority being white men (women still prefer poisoning/hanging by a small margin). White individuals account for the vast majority of suicides regardless of methods.

Homicide and suicide rates are usually inversely proportionate; populations with the highest homicide rates tend to have low suicide rates, and the opposite is also generally true.

I'm not sure why we are differentiating between homicides, when the article and graphs clearly state firearm deaths, regardless of the cause? The "gun people" have made the same lame argument for years that cars kill more people than guns, so why don't we ban cars (not that most peeps who want safe gun laws want to ban guns). If the CDC projections turn out to be correct, this is pretty big news. IMO and MOO

 

[daisy7]

I see everyone picked up on the fact that this is based on a projection, not on actual existing stats.

Did anyone notice that the linked article also said, falsely, "while suicides, accidents and domestic violence with guns continue to increase"?

Even the projected data, even including suicides which should not and cannot validly be included in such comparisons, show gun deaths continuing to decrease.

Did anyone notice that the original article also focused only on deaths of people under 25? Not "all Americans," as the snippet suggested?

So we have projected data, not actual data, we have an outright lie about gun deaths increasing, and we have a narrow focus on a specific age group that is reported as if it is true of all age groups.

3 lies in one article! Not bad for an anti-gun hit piece.

You must have missed this part of the article I posted:

Last year, the Center for American Progress detected a trend that by the end of 2012, firearms would surpass cars as the leading cause of death for people under 25. Now Bloomberg Government’s compilation of recent CDC data concludes that gun deaths would outnumber those from cars for all age groups.


Why should suicide by gun not be included? The number of motor vehicle deaths includes those that caused their own death by driving drunk, so how is this any different?

 

[al66pine]

Originally Posted by al66pine Also from article linked above:
"In the past several decades, we’ve seen remarkable improvements in both the way motorists behave on our roadways and in the safety of the vehicles they drive,” according to a Dec. 10 statement by the agency." National Highway Traffic Safety Admin.
A bit o/t:
Did anyone involved in this study think about smart phones and similar devices?
While driving, are ppl going to spend less time -
- yakking and texting ?
- looking at GPS, weather reports, news?
- FB, IG, tweets, yada yada?

Is it poss motor vehicle death rates will increase?

Many states, including mine, have passed laws about texting/using cell phones while driving.

daisy7, ^acknowledged^, but my question remains:
Is it poss motor vehicle death rates will increase, despite these laws and because of cell-yakking, texting, device-related distractions?
Anyone?

 

[al66pine]

If you take the penis away from the man. Can he rape?
If you take the car away from the drunk. Can he drink and drive?

Yes and yes.
Even without penis, man can rape (hand, objects, etc.).
Even after car is taken, drunk can drink and drive (family/friends' cars w permission, family/friends' cars w'out permission, stolen cars, etc.).

JM2cts.

 

[al66pine]

....So we have projected data, not actual data, we have an outright lie about gun deaths increasing, and
we have a narrow focus on a specific age group that is reported as if it is true of all age groups.
3 lies in one article! Not bad for an anti-gun hit piece.

sbm bbm

3, yes, 3. Reporter scores hockey hat trick (in a contorted sense) in Bloomberg article.
Maybe someone reading article more closely can detect another misstatement making it a Texas hat trick.



For the sports-impaired, like me usually, "In both field hockey and ice hockey, a hat trick occurs when a player scores three goals in a single match."
"A Texas Hat Trick occurs when a player scores four goals in a single game. Like a regular hat-trick, only larger -
it is derived from the saying "Everything's bigger in Texas".[SUP][26]". [/SUP]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hat-trick Also see Variations in wiki article, like rat trick.

Are three posts in a row a W/S hat trick? Or just being a thread-hog?

 

[CoolJ]

Well, yeah, someone did:



So you're walking that back now? You don't think that guns cause suicide?

What do you think of Australia's suicide data referenced above? Do you think that the ready availability of rope leads to more spontaneous suicides by hanging?

Not walking back on anything. All of these stats, the ones I am citing and the ones you are, show correlation. No guns don't cause suicide. They don't cause homicide either. They just make both of them much easier.

What do I make of the Australian study?
As I said upstream, I will show you some stats and you will show me some stats. We can find stats and research to support whatever we want. It is the interpretation that counts. I would have to see the full article to comment, not the abstract.
For now, I will use what my common sense and intuition tell me.

 

[CoolJ]

Yes and yes.
Even without penis, man can rape (hand, objects, etc.).
Even after car is taken, drunk can drink and drive (family/friends' cars w permission, family/friends' cars w'out permission, stolen cars, etc.).

JM2cts.

But now we are speaking of different tools. Can you rape with your penis if you don't have a penis? Can you drive drunk if you don't have a car? Can you shoot someone without a gun?

 

[Mrs G Norris]

I still do not get why so called 'responsible' gun owners do not want any laws brought in that will help keep guns out of then hands of people that shouldn't have them, like what is the issue with closing the gun show loophole for instance so that anyone who buys a gun is checked out before they can walk away with one? Don't you guys see that guns getting into the hands of the so called 'wrong people' so easily is a problem for everyone including yourselves, I just do not get that, you'd think an organisation like the NRA who used to stand for gun safety would get behind moves like that instead of pushing for more and more guns all the time. Obvious all they care about is sales, I'm amazed they don't set up satellite groups in Australia and Europe to try and push gun sales internationally like they have in the states.

 

[CoolJ]

I still do not get why so called 'responsible' gun owners do not want any laws brought in that will help keep guns out of then hands of people that shouldn't have them, like what is the issue with closing the gun show loophole for instance so that anyone who buys a gun is checked out before they can walk away with one? Don't you guys see that guns getting into the hands of the so called 'wrong people' so easily is a problem for everyone including yourselves, I just do not get that, you'd think an organisation like the NRA who used to stand for gun safety would get behind moves like that instead of pushing for more and more guns all the time. Obvious all they care about is sales, I'm amazed they don't set up satellite groups in Australia and Europe to try and push gun sales internationally like they have in the states.

I am beginning to believe from this thread and from doing lots of reading on the subject, that many have the mindset that they are preparing for either Armageddon or a Civil War. They want to be ready when this happens and they do not want anybody to get in the way of their preparations so they must do everything in their power to hold on to all of their guns. If that means the criminals get to keep theirs, then so be it.
JMO

 

[daisy7]

Originally Posted by al66pine Also from article linked above:
"In the past several decades, we’ve seen remarkable improvements in both the way motorists behave on our roadways and in the safety of the vehicles they drive,” according to a Dec. 10 statement by the agency." National Highway Traffic Safety Admin.
A bit o/t:
Did anyone involved in this study think about smart phones and similar devices?
While driving, are ppl going to spend less time -
- yakking and texting ?
- looking at GPS, weather reports, news?
- FB, IG, tweets, yada yada?

Is it poss motor vehicle death rates will increase?



daisy7, ^acknowledged^, but my question remains:
Is it poss motor vehicle death rates will increase, despite these laws and because of cell-yakking, texting, device-related distractions?
Anyone?

Of course, it's possible. But, we are comparing apples to oranges as driving a car is regulated, while owning a gun is not in most places in the US. It speaks volumes to me that the number of deaths from guns is close to and projected to outnumber cars in the this year. I'd be interested to see data on time spent using each and number of deaths. I work from home, so don't use my car as much as many do. How often do gun owners use their guns?

 

[al66pine]

Of course, it's possible. But, we are comparing apples to oranges as driving a car is regulated, while owning a gun is not in most places in the US. It speaks volumes to me that the number of deaths from cars is close to and projected to outnumber cars in the this year. I'd be interested to see data on time spent using each and number of deaths. I work from home, so don't use my car as much as many do. How often do gun owners use their guns?

bbm Pardon me, I'm missing something.

 

[daisy7]

bbm Pardon me, I'm missing something.

Of course, it's possible. But, we are comparing apples to oranges as driving a car is regulated, while owning a gun is not in most places in the US. It speaks volumes to me that the number of deaths from guns is close to and projected to outnumber cars in the this year. I'd be interested to see data on time spent using each and number of deaths. I work from home, so don't use my car as much as many do. How often do gun owners use their guns?

I updated my post -- that's what I get for trying to multitask

 

[neesaki]

What?! The NRA? Am I missing something? I just stepped in to check out this tragic accident , should have known it would be turned into a attack against gun owners . Adios amigos. :seeya:

 

[sonjay]

But now we are speaking of different tools. Can you rape with your penis if you don't have a penis? Can you drive drunk if you don't have a car? Can you shoot someone without a gun?

By your reasoning, we should take all penises away from all men, because some men rape.
And we should take away all cars from all people, because some people drive drunk.

It doesn't work like that, however. As long as a man isn't doing anything with his penis that harms others, he's free to keep it, and even to carry it around with him everywhere he goes. As long as a driver isn't driving drunk or doing other things with his car to harm others, he's free to keep driving it.

Do you blame penises for rape? Do you blame cars for drunk-driving deaths? Do you blame pressure cookers for the Boston bombing? Are we going to ban pressure cookers next?

 

[sonjay]

I still do not get why so called 'responsible' gun owners do not want any laws brought in that will help keep guns out of then hands of people that shouldn't have them, like what is the issue with closing the gun show loophole for instance so that anyone who buys a gun is checked out before they can walk away with one? Don't you guys see that guns getting into the hands of the so called 'wrong people' so easily is a problem for everyone including yourselves, I just do not get that, you'd think an organisation like the NRA who used to stand for gun safety would get behind moves like that instead of pushing for more and more guns all the time. Obvious all they care about is sales, I'm amazed they don't set up satellite groups in Australia and Europe to try and push gun sales internationally like they have in the states.

Your premise is flawed. There is no gun show loophole.

 

[sonjay]

Of course, it's possible. But, we are comparing apples to oranges as driving a car is regulated, while owning a gun is not in most places in the US. It speaks volumes to me that the number of deaths from guns is close to and projected to outnumber cars in the this year. I'd be interested to see data on time spent using each and number of deaths. I work from home, so don't use my car as much as many do. How often do gun owners use their guns?

Your premise is flawed. Guns are highly regulated. See my post many pages back where I discussed how much easier gun owners would have it if gun were regulated the same way cars are.

 

[sonjay]

I am beginning to believe from this thread and from doing lots of reading on the subject, that many have the mindset that they are preparing for either Armageddon or a Civil War. They want to be ready when this happens and they do not want anybody to get in the way of their preparations so they must do everything in their power to hold on to all of their guns. If that means the criminals get to keep theirs, then so be it.
JMO

You couldn't be more wrong.

I believe, from this thread, that people who want to ban guns are simply projecting their own fears and paranoia onto gun owners. They believe there is no such thing as a law-abiding gun owner, and that guns are living objects with self-agency that at any time might decide of their own volition to leap up and start shooting people, all on their own.

 

[sonjay]

You must have missed this part of the article I posted:

Last year, the Center for American Progress detected a trend that by the end of 2012, firearms would surpass cars as the leading cause of death for people under 25. Now Bloomberg Government’s compilation of recent CDC data concludes that gun deaths would outnumber those from cars for all age groups.


Why should suicide by gun not be included? The number of motor vehicle deaths includes those that caused their own death by driving drunk, so how is this any different?

You must have missed where I said the article linked to by CoolJ said that.

If you want to compare accidental deaths, then compare accidental deaths. Suicides are not accidental deaths.

A few hundred accidental firearm deaths per year vs. tens of thousands of accidental motor vehicle fatalities per year.

It's not even close. Cars are much more dangerous.

 

[CoolJ]

By your reasoning, we should take all penises away from all men, because some men rape.
And we should take away all cars from all people, because some people drive drunk.

It doesn't work like that, however. As long as a man isn't doing anything with his penis that harms others, he's free to keep it, and even to carry it around with him everywhere he goes. As long as a driver isn't driving drunk or doing other things with his car to harm others, he's free to keep driving it.

Do you blame penises for rape? Do you blame cars for drunk-driving deaths? Do you blame pressure cookers for the Boston bombing? Are we going to ban pressure cookers next?

Penises and cars are made for things other than rape and driving drunk.
That is the difference. Just use things for what they are intended.
Unfortunately, guns are intended for killing.

 

[CoolJ]

You couldn't be more wrong.

I believe, from this thread, that people who want to ban guns are simply projecting their own fears and paranoia onto gun owners. They believe there is no such thing as a law-abiding gun owner, and that guns are living objects with self-agency that at any time might decide of their own volition to leap up and start shooting people, all on their own.

Well you aren't talking about me then. Because I have said specifically to YOU, that I have no problem with you personally owning a gun. I have no problem with a hunting rifle or two.
So either, you aren't paying attention to what I am saying. Or you are putting words in my mouth. Or both.