GUILTY ID - 4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #98

[Nila Aella]

The guidelines wouldn't even matter. If the profile isn't strong enough to enter into CODIS

BT only said the profile was ineligible. Not why.
Codis has multiple levels of stringency that can be run.

, then IGG wouldn't help you.

Why not?

We saw this in the Morphew case, where a touch DNA sample was so genetically limited they could only enter it into CODIS using a manual process, called a keyboard search. This was a very stupid idea, because it came back to multiple different offenders, in multiple states. This gave the defense ammunition to claim that the killer was some sex offender.

A sample like that could never be matched to a particular person, and could only be used to eliminate people.

jmo

 

[Nila Aella]

Case SUmmary Page

https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/isc.coi/CR01-24-31665/Summary/Case-Summary-Kohberger-01142025.pdf

 

[sunspun]

it’s worth going back to first principles on this. DNA is usually circumstantial. These unidentified samples simply indicate someone was in the shared house at some point or their DNA was transferred there. It does not suggest those people did murders without more.

so yes unidentified DNA on a bloody glove that excludes the defendant could be relevant if the glove itself could be linked to the murder.

But otherwise it proves nothing in the way of alt suspect IMO.

Sounds like it just proves that some males were in that house at some time, and nobody's denying that.

 

[NCWatcher]

The other samples did not meet the threshold for testing.

We've been over this before. 4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #95

MOO

But isn't it speculation to say "the other samples did not meet the threshold for testing?" And the above link you provided for your earlier post states "There are guidelines as to what is tested further and why" but the post doesn't link to any guidelines or say what they are. Do you have a link to these guidelines and threshold for testing? (Obviously some testing was done to know 2 sources of unknown male DNA were found-- IMO the question involves an apparent lack of followup.)

IF the unknown male DNA was found places like the electrical meter or furnace as you also speculate in your earlier post, and it's so obvious DNA found in those places could not possibly be relevant to the murders, why were locations like those swabbed for DNA in the first place? What were they looking for in those areas? Would fingerprints, if found, be relevant but DNA is not? Seems unlikely.

I seriously doubt the entire 3-storey house was swabbed-- I suspect only areas though to be "relevant" to the crime were (not areas like the furnace) But now previously relevant areas that yielded DNA have been deemed irrelevant for followup?
MOO

 

[iamshadow21]

But isn't it speculation to say "the other samples did not meet the threshold for testing?" And the above link you provided for your earlier post states "There are guidelines as to what is tested further and why" but the post doesn't link to any guidelines or say what they are. Do you have a link to these guidelines and threshold for testing? (Obviously some testing was done to know 2 sources of unknown male DNA were found-- IMO the question involves an apparent lack of followup.)

IF the unknown male DNA was found places like the electrical meter or furnace as you also speculate in your earlier post, and it's so obvious DNA found in those places could not possibly be relevant to the murders, why were locations like those swabbed for DNA in the first place? What were they looking for in those areas? Would fingerprints, if found, be relevant but DNA is not? Seems unlikely.

I seriously doubt the entire 3-storey house was swabbed-- I suspect only areas though to be "relevant" to the crime were (not areas like the furnace) But now previously relevant areas that yielded DNA have been deemed irrelevant for followup?
MOO

This might be helpful.

Post in thread '4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #95' 4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #95

MOO

 

[mrjitty]

Sounds like it just proves that some males were in that house at some time, and nobody's denying that.

Many of us have now been through multiple cases where any old DNA found somewhere at the broader crime scene is trumpeted as "the real killers"

As you correctly point out, of itself, this kind of circumstantial evidence does not raise doubt. This goes to a more esoteric point, but the state is not required to disprove any and all theoretical tips or suspect the defence can come up with.

Raising doubt requires some evidential foundation that establishes the alt as a real possibility. Mere speculation is not enough ...

Furthermore, in this case, even if you could show there was a potential additional person linked to the murders, that also does not necessarily raise doubt if BKs DNA is without a doubt on the murder weapon.

MOO

 

[Justice101]

Many of us have now been through multiple cases where any old DNA found somewhere at the broader crime scene is trumpeted as "the real killers"

As you correctly point out, of itself, this kind of circumstantial evidence does not raise doubt. This goes to a more esoteric point, but the state is not required to disprove any and all theoretical tips or suspect the defence can come up with.

Raising doubt requires some evidential foundation that establishes the alt as a real possibility. Mere speculation is not enough ...

Furthermore, in this case, even if you could show there was a potential additional person linked to the murders, that also does not necessarily raise doubt if BKs DNA is without a doubt on the murder weapon.

MOO

Very well said!

@mrjitty, do you have a legal background? just curious.

 

[Justice101]

I’m a bit surprised there was only two profiles found, as I’d expect many more, even in close proximity to the victims.

In any event, there is nothing unusual there, and it is of very little help to the defense.

There was no need to check DNA everywhere all over that house. The investigators knew it would have had a lot of males in there and the only things they would really need to look at were things related to the crime itself: sheath, doorknobs, sliding door latches, victims' fingernails, etc.

I suspect if LE had UNLIMITED resources, they could have checked every square inch of every counter in the bathroom, kitchen as well as all doorknobs on the first floor, used tissue papers, pens, pencils, light switches etc. The number of samples would be astronomical. This is not practical and would not further the investigation any.

What they probably did was rank each DNA sample obtained based on where it was found. #1 priority being the sheath and everything else just being held just in case it matched anything if the sheath DNA was a dead end.

Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[girlhasnoname]

Thanks, too late to edit.

I don't see this at all.
I see frustration with the discovery process.

The P filed subsequent expert documents regarding Mowery.
All late and after a MTC was filed.

I agree

Very interested in his ruling on the MTS Apple warrant and the basis for his ruling.

IMO E Massoth is an excellent attorney.
Cheap shots and overstatements are not her style.
jmo

I agree that EM has done a great job on these Motions and I think she ranks right up there with AT. That is why I was disappointed to read that footnote, because it is usually NOT her style. Logsdon, yes, I can see that coming from him all day long.

We can also agree to disagree that it was a cheap shot...overstated and I believe intentionally designed to push that narrative out to the public around the sealed responses by the State.

JMO

 

[PinkParis2052]

..

 

[MassGuy]

There was no need to check DNA everywhere all over that house. The investigators knew it would have had a lot of males in there and the only things they would really need to look at were things related to the crime itself: sheath, doorknobs, sliding door latches, victims' fingernails, etc.

I suspect if LE had UNLIMITED resources, they could have checked every square inch of every counter in the bathroom, kitchen as well as all doorknobs on the first floor, used tissue papers, pens, pencils, light switches etc. The number of samples would be astronomical. This is not practical and would not further the investigation any.

What they probably did was rank each DNA sample obtained based on where it was found. #1 priority being the sheath and everything else just being held just in case it matched anything if the sheath DNA was a dead end.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Oh I’m not saying they should have swabbed the whole house, just that I expected there to be even more unidentified profiles in the immediate vicinity of the victims (doorknobs, switches, etc).

Regardless, the killer certainly wore gloves here. Thank God he made that insanely stupid mistake.

It’s heartwarming to think about the fear and panic he felt when he realized that his perfectly planned and executed crime had gone to hell.

 

[Tapeartree]

Oh I’m not saying they should have swabbed the whole house, just that I expected there to be even more unidentified profiles in the immediate vicinity of the victims (doorknobs, switches, etc).

Regardless, the killer certainly wore gloves here. Thank God he made that insanely stupid mistake.

It’s heartwarming to think about the fear and panic he felt when he realized that his perfectly planned and executed crime had gone to hell.

I think that fear and panic sent him back to the house hours later once he realized he misplaced his knife sheath.

 

[Justice101]

I think that fear and panic sent him back to the house hours later once he realized he misplaced his knife sheath.

At one point, I thought he left it there intentionally since he had probably wiped off the whole sheath before he left that night. I think he was going to call himself the sheath killer or something like that. And keep doing it becoming a Serial Killer like he had studied.

However, I am not so convinced he left it on purpose now.

 

[NCWatcher]

This might be helpful.

Post in thread '4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #95' 4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #95

MOO

Thank you.

So the additional DNA apparently was not submitted to CODIS, at least that's what the defense said in the quoted motion. It's helpful to see the CODIS guidelines but it's not at all clear to me that the DNA didn't meet the guidelines vs it just wasn't sent because LE "had their (one) man." Nothing I've seen really clarifies what happened. Further @Nila Aella's linked WS post seems to say SOME of the material the state decided didn't need additional testing was tested later at the defense's request (At the end of post "During one of the recent hearings (motion to compel), AJ from the state mentioned that the State facilitated testing of additional trace evidence, as requested by the D.")

So it's clear as mud to me. I doubt anyone thinks it doesn't matter of someone else was involved because there's evidence BK was involved. So I don't get it. Of course, there are always oddities in any case but this seems like strange uninvestigated evidence to leave hanging around without making some efforts.... And if I think that, so could a juror.
MOO

 

[iamshadow21]

Thank you.

So the additional DNA apparently was not submitted to CODIS, at least that's what the defense said in the quoted motion. It's helpful to see the CODIS guidelines but it's not at all clear to me that the DNA didn't meet the guidelines vs it just wasn't sent because LE "had their (one) man." Nothing I've seen really clarifies what happened. Further @Nila Aella's linked WS post seems to say SOME of the material the state decided didn't need additional testing was tested later at the defense's request (At the end of post "During one of the recent hearings (motion to compel), AJ from the state mentioned that the State facilitated testing of additional trace evidence, as requested by the D.")

So it's clear as mud to me. I doubt anyone thinks it doesn't matter of someone else was involved because there's evidence BK was involved. So I don't get it. Of course, there are always oddities in any case but this seems like strange uninvestigated evidence to leave hanging around without making some efforts.... And if I think that, so could a juror.
MOO

To be honest, I've come to think it more likely that the reason they weren't eligible is that they were partial profiles without the full array of loci necessary to match with individuals with any reliability. That would make more sense than them swabbing the furnace controls and getting the maintenance guy, for example.

I still think there's a chance there was DNA found on the delivery bags for food, though, as we know those bags were fresh, delivered literally minutes before the victims were killed. Chances of the delivery guy's profile being on the bags where he gripped them is high. But they ruled him out as a suspect early on, and there was a legitimate reason for his DNA to be on the bags.

MOO

 

[MassGuy]

To be honest, I've come to think it more likely that the reason they weren't eligible is that they were partial profiles without the full array of loci necessary to match with individuals with any reliability. That would make more sense than them swabbing the furnace controls and getting the maintenance guy, for example.

I still think there's a chance there was DNA found on the delivery bags for food, though, as we know those bags were fresh, delivered literally minutes before the victims were killed. Chances of the delivery guy's profile being on the bags where he gripped them is high. But they ruled him out as a suspect early on, and there was a legitimate reason for his DNA to be on the bags.

MOO

Yes. It’s completely standard to run everything through CODIS, and I can’t fathom there’s some sort of rule against that.

What I have seen though, is DNA not meeting the requirements for CODIS entry, as the profile is not complete.

Touch DNA degrades over time.

 

[CKS]

Ok, then I imagine that’s because it didn’t have enough genetic material to produce a CODIS hit.

Touch DNA degrades over time, so it had probably been there a while if that’s the case.

All MOO

I agree with the bolded part of your post and by that same exact logic it is curious why you put 100% faith into BK's touch DNA on the snap.

Just an opinion.

 

[iamshadow21]

All MOO

I agree with the bolded part of your post and by that same exact logic it is curious why you put 100% faith into BK's touch DNA on the snap.

Just an opinion.

Well, if his full profile is there, then that makes it even more likely he was the last person to touch it, and recently.

I don't see why a knife sheath found in the bed of a stabbing victim with a single complete profile on the use point is dubious to anyone. The item was tested and the profile sequenced weeks before they had anyone to test it against, ruling out cross contamination. And if BK had any legitimate reason why his DNA would be found there in that manner without being responsible, he would have produced it by now, and he hasn't.

MOO

 

[MassGuy]

All MOO

I agree with the bolded part of your post and by that same exact logic it is curious why you put 100% faith into BK's touch DNA on the snap.

Just an opinion.

Because it’s a full profile on an item the killer absolutely touched.

An old, degraded, partial profile on something in the vicinity of the victims, holds a tiny fraction of the weight of the sheath DNA.

Logic says the killer was wearing gloves (Kohberger loves them), so you’re only going to find DNA on an item the killer touched before putting on gloves.

Like the sheath…

 

[jepop]

Please post a link to the need for permission to engage IGG services.

jmo

Exploring Investigative Genetic Genealogy: Privacy Concerns with the Key to Cold Cases | Northern Light

by Hannah Antonsen

northernlight.nhcc.edu

https://www.justice.gov/olp/page/file/1204386/dl

Not permission as such, my wording was rushed and that's not what I intended in the literal sense. But the Dept of Justice Interim Guidelines (above) present a policy concerning certain criteria which should be responsibly met by LE prior to commencing FGG ( forensic genetic genealogy, IGG for LE). Jmo

First doc is good general overview of DOJ's interim guidelines. Second link is to the guidelines themselves. My interp is that LE would responsibly exhaust all other avenues first before commencing FGG ( forensic genetic genealogy) and this includes codis upload. If the unknown profiles didn't meet eligibility for codis upload then imo they would not be prioritised for FGG, especially in this case when the full single source profile on sheathe near deceased victim is clearly where LE needed to prioritise their resources. Moo

Also page 4, footnote 16 of DOJ guidelines outlines the criteria to be met before a profile should be considered a candidate profile for FGG. The criteria always includes uploaded to Codis. Jmo

Below link to ISP doc referencing eligibility criteria for DNA profile entry into codis. It's detailed and I haven't read it thoroughly, but I think it shows there certainly are criteria in place to determine eligibility. I do make an assumption that investigators followed the policy and criteria when determining the non-eligibility of the unknown profiles. Moo

DNA Biology

Examiners in the Forensic Biology specialty routinely examine items of evidence for the presence of blood and seminal fluid. After the proper samples for comparison are obtained, DNA analysis can be conducted on these stains, and conclusions drawn as to whether an individual can be eliminated or...

isp.idaho.gov

P 5 "Codis Sample Data Entry and Upload: Procedure."

https://isp.idaho.gov/wp-content/uploads/Forensics/currentAMs/BiologyDNA//CODIS-Methods-rev4.pdf