ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #1

[ninij9]

This is one of the sad cases where I don't have suspicions about the family. I think this sweet boy toddled away or was nabbed in a small window of unfortunate opportunity. I can only hope and pray that it is a family that wanted a baby and felt 'justified' because the baby was not being tended to. :candle:

Just wanted to add my agreement that this is one of those rare cases for me too where I don't distrust the family.

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[ninij9]

That part was confusing. It sounded like she was trying to clarify where the rumor came from about a black truck. He said that he has a black truck and he was at the store with DeOrr earlier in the day. So they weren't sure if the store owners were describing him with DeOrr or if somebody actually did come into the store later in the day with a small boy and driving a black truck. I hope that makes sense. Unfortunately, my computer is not letting me watch the video just now.

Well, that should be easy, even without videotape. Was Deorr crying? Did you buy him a chocolate bar? Because these are the things the witness saw. And finally can he identify the dad as the man with the child?

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[cocomod]

I am so very sad for this family and especially for little Deorr!

I know that the family thinks that he was abducted, but I hate to say that I have my doubts. Living in Utah, we hear stories all the time of children getting lost in the "wild". Sometimes, they are found by luck, determination, hundreds of volunteers. Sometimes, they are not. :cry:

There was a young scout that went missing several years back. They began looking for him immediately, they looked for a very long time, and yet, they never found him. Could he have been kidnapped? Possibly. But, lost in the woods is more likely. http://www.deseretnews.com/article/595086737/Searchers-find-missing-Boy-Scouts-sock.html?pg=all

Then, there is the awful case of little Gage. His daddy took him "hunting", but since Gage was asleep, he left him in his truck as he walked a bit away to look for the animals. Unfortunately, Gage woke up and began wandering in his jammies looking for his daddy. It took about a week to find him, but it was only by sheer luck that they did find him. They didn't expect him to have wandered that far. They didn't expect a lot of things. http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=95158

I do not know if little Deorr was abducted, but I hate to say that I expect it is more likely that he wandered away and was lost within minutes. I do NOT want to give up on this little guy, but I also do NOT want the searchers to give up.

 

[SuzDuJour]

Did I read that dogs didn't pick up his scent away from the campsite? How has the weather been, did they use search dogs or cadaver dogs?

 

[teeandcee]

They generally stay away from people. Of course, there is always a chance, but less likely then in other parts of the country.

Generally they do, but I'd imagine a squealing child would attract a mountain lion that would have otherwise steered clear. I still think he was grabbed by a mountain lion, however, I assume the police have considered this possibility and investigated it. If it's true the search dogs lost his scent then I can only assume someone or something picked him up off the ground. I've never been very clear on how search dogs work though. If a human/lion carried him would his scent still be picked up? I dunno.

What I do know is looking at those pics of the terrain along with the google earth images is very overwhelming!

I still can't figure out how isolated the campground was. If there were a lot of other campers my mountain lion theory loses steam. If they were the only campers in a large area IMO the abductor theory loses steam. I know abductors target and stalk families, but I think an animal attack is more likely in a very isolated area.

I'm still praying for the poor little fella along with his family and LE. I pray they find him or at least some proof of what happened if he's no longer alive.

 

[katydid23]

I think if a mountain lion walked up near the camp grounds they would see his recent tracks. But IDK.

 

[ClaireNC]

woops my bad!! Deleting post now, thank you! :wave:

I did the same thing early on in the thread and somebody else pointed it out. I'll adjust my post above too.

 

[Maiko]

I'm sad Deorr hasn't been found yet. I hope they are searching high and low, far and wide.

I know abduction was mentioned, who would have taken him?

 

[Purplepixii]

For those who cannot view the videos for some reason (or perhaps don't want to) here is a quick precis of both the long & the short version along with my observations (clearly marked)

Long interview:
(My observation: Mum looks upset)
(My observation: Dad very factual)
Dad was driving down the road to get service, about 1/2 mile because he "didn't want to get cut off during call to 911"
Mum got service where they were initially
(My observation: Mum is sitting with legs crossed towards Dad so believes him)
Dad got hold of 911 who said they had Mum on the phone
(My observation: Dad had a fascination with the helicopter)
Someone / something off camera keeps catching Mum's attention
"Call-off of search" is not true
Dad "We will find him, no matter what"
"He's very attached to us, does not go away from his parents"
Didn't see anybody or hear anyone
"EMT Bag needs to be addressed" off-camera comment (My observation: this was NOT addressed)
Clear up rumours re SM
Dad keeps calling Deorr a "3 year old" then correcting himself to "2 almost 3"
Dad's a truck driver, employer has been up there helping
Someone at the store said they saw a gentleman and a small blonde boy matching kid's description, looked really filthy, buying candy for him, kid was bawling, in a black truck. Dad says that was him with Deorr and they went to get a few things but witness has the time wrong - witness says it was at 6 - Dad says they haven't left the camp since 13:00.
Don't know if anyone was camping around them. Doesn't know the area. Says there is a road above the campsite.
Loud creek, could mask hearing someone / something
Deorr was playing with Grandpa, nearly 2, getting ready for a nap.
Mum & Dad were 50yards from campsite for about 10 mins
Got back to campsite, asked where Deorr was, Grandpa said he thought Deorr was with the parents
Keeps going on about the area being "blocked in"
There's no suspension of the search, it's just that there's no sign of the Deorr
Dad "he may be with somebody"
Thinks Deorr is no longer up the mountain any more
(My observation: Lots of negative side-to-side head shaking whilst speaking of positives)
Dad says reservoir is a few feet deep but has been searched
Kept reiterating everything has been 100% searched
Parents say they will keep looking for Deorr
Blanket, cup & monkey - Deorr won't go anywhere without them yet they are left behind
Dad finally got upset towards the end of the interview when asked what he would say to Deorr if he was watching this interview (My observation: still with negative head movements alongside positive words)
Parents say to drop Deorr off where someone can find him and bring him home


Short interview:
Dad believes Deorr is "no longer up the mountain"
Family began own search before calling 911
Dad "wracking brains, don't know anyone who doesn't have a few people who don't like you or hate you"
Mum "but not enough to harm us this way, especially knowing how much he means to us"


My questions:
1. Was the witness correct or not regarding the timing of seeing Deorr & Dad? Witnesses are notoriously unreliable (I used to work in LE and saw this all to often)
2. What is this "EMT bag that needs to be addressed" yet wasn't?
3. Deorr's track stops near car park - is it a coincidence he was taken by his Dad to a store in Dad's truck or that Dad drove away from the campsite to "get signal"?
4. How come Mum got a signal on her mobile at the campsite but Dad didn't? Are they on the same mobile network? Dad says he drove "1/2 a mile to get signal" - has the road area between campsite & where Dad parked up been searched?
5. Why does Dad keep calling Deorr a "3 year old" then keep correcting himself?
6. How long between realising Deorr was missing and then calling 911? They admit to searching before calling. Was everyone together / in line of sight of each other during this search?
7. Who do they know that "doesn't like / hates them" as intimated in the shorter version interview?

Hope this helps

 

[3blue1pink]

For those who cannot view the videos for some reason (or perhaps don't want to) here is a quick precis of both the long & the short version along with my observations (clearly marked)

Long interview:
(My observation: Mum looks upset)
(My observation: Dad very factual)
Dad was driving down the road to get service, about 1/2 mile because he "didn't want to get cut off during call to 911"
Mum got service where they were initially
(My observation: Mum is sitting with legs crossed towards Dad so believes him)
Dad got hold of 911 who said they had Mum on the phone
(My observation: Dad had a fascination with the helicopter)
Someone / something off camera keeps catching Mum's attention
"Call-off of search" is not true
Dad "We will find him, no matter what"
"He's very attached to us, does not go away from his parents"
Didn't see anybody or hear anyone
"EMT Bag needs to be addressed" off-camera comment (My observation: this was NOT addressed)
Clear up rumours re SM
Dad keeps calling Deorr a "3 year old" then correcting himself to "2 almost 3"
Dad's a truck driver, employer has been up there helping
Someone at the store said they saw a gentleman and a small blonde boy matching kid's description, looked really filthy, buying candy for him, kid was bawling, in a black truck. Dad says that was him with Deorr and they went to get a few things but witness has the time wrong - witness says it was at 6 - Dad says they haven't left the camp since 13:00.
Don't know if anyone was camping around them. Doesn't know the area. Says there is a road above the campsite.
Loud creek, could mask hearing someone / something
Deorr was playing with Grandpa, nearly 2, getting ready for a nap.
Mum & Dad were 50yards from campsite for about 10 mins
Got back to campsite, asked where Deorr was, Grandpa said he thought Deorr was with the parents
Keeps going on about the area being "blocked in"
There's no suspension of the search, it's just that there's no sign of the Deorr
Dad "he may be with somebody"
Thinks Deorr is no longer up the mountain any more
(My observation: Lots of negative side-to-side head shaking whilst speaking of positives)
Dad says reservoir is a few feet deep but has been searched
Kept reiterating everything has been 100% searched
Parents say they will keep looking for Deorr
Blanket, cup & monkey - Deorr won't go anywhere without them yet they are left behind
Dad finally got upset towards the end of the interview when asked what he would say to Deorr if he was watching this interview (My observation: still with negative head movements alongside positive words)
Parents say to drop Deorr off where someone can find him and bring him home


Short interview:
Dad believes Deorr is "no longer up the mountain"
Family began own search before calling 911
Dad "wracking brains, don't know anyone who doesn't have a few people who don't like you or hate you"
Mum "but not enough to harm us this way, especially knowing how much he means to us"


My questions:
1. Was the witness correct or not regarding the timing of seeing Deorr & Dad? Witnesses are notoriously unreliable (I used to work in LE and saw this all to often)
2. What is this "EMT bag that needs to be addressed" yet wasn't?
3. Deorr's track stops near car park - is it a coincidence he was taken by his Dad to a store in Dad's truck or that Dad drove away from the campsite to "get signal"?
4. How come Mum got a signal on her mobile at the campsite but Dad didn't? Are they on the same mobile network? Dad says he drove "1/2 a mile to get signal" - has the road area between campsite & where Dad parked up been searched?
5. Why does Dad keep calling Deorr a "3 year old" then keep correcting himself?
6. How long between realising Deorr was missing and then calling 911? They admit to searching before calling. Was everyone together / in line of sight of each other during this search?
7. Who do they know that "doesn't like / hates them" as intimated in the shorter version interview?

Hope this helps

Very much !! Thanks for this . Just gettin caught up on this case. Wondering about the commoner regarding people that they are referring to about hating them ?

 

[Jules71]

Does the couple have other children? They have different last names and show engaged on FB. It looks to me like there might be other children. Were they on this camping trip? Do we know who all was camping (mom, dad, deorr, grandpa, anyone else?)

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[3blue1pink]

The area they are in is extreme and remote . I lived in ID for 7 years and traveled thru this area numerous times . Not a lot of people a anytime of year . My cousin drowned in the salmon river a few years ago . It took a few days for someone to find him down river . There are mountain lions , wolves and coyotes galore . Not to be negative but it's just a raw unforgiving landscape .How long between grandpa seeing him and parents noticed he was missing ?

 

[jmcgladr]

Generally they do, but I'd imagine a squealing child would attract a mountain lion that would have otherwise steered clear. I still think he was grabbed by a mountain lion, however, I assume the police have considered this possibility and investigated it. If it's true the search dogs lost his scent then I can only assume someone or something picked him up off the ground. I've never been very clear on how search dogs work though. If a human/lion carried him would his scent still be picked up? I dunno.

What I do know is looking at those pics of the terrain along with the google earth images is very overwhelming!

I still can't figure out how isolated the campground was. If there were a lot of other campers my mountain lion theory loses steam. If they were the only campers in a large area IMO the abductor theory loses steam. I know abductors target and stalk families, but I think an animal attack is more likely in a very isolated area.

I'm still praying for the poor little fella along with his family and LE. I pray they find him or at least some proof of what happened if he's no longer alive.

I live on an island that has its share of mountain lions (or cougars as we call them here). They normally feed on deer and small mammals, but have been known to opportunistically feed on pets and children. A child on his/her own would, sadly, be considered prey to a cougar/mountain lion. If DeOrr was taken to a mountain lion's cave, it would explain why he wasn't seen in the heat profile videos they took. As for being isolated, it does look like a fairly isolated campsite, and there were few other campers there from what I read.

 

[3blue1pink]

I live on an island that has its share of mountain lions (or cougars as we call them here). They normally feed on deer and small mammals, but have been known to opportunistically feed on pets and children. A child on his/her own would, sadly, be considered prey to a cougar/mountain lion. If DeOrr was taken to a mountain lion's cave, it would explain why he wasn't seen in the heat profile videos they took. As for being isolated, it does look like a fairly isolated campsite, and there were few other campers there from what I read.

These campgrounds tend to be very sparsely populated since is in the middle of ID nowhere near any big city . I also wanted to mention that this area is not wooded so it would be hard to get lost quickly. Did the family have dogs with them? If they did and the dog(s) were near the site they would alert to any wild animal even if they were concealed .my dogs would always know waaaay before me of nearby animals .

 

[Jules71]

Info about the search can also be found here: https://m.facebook.com/SalmonSearchandRescue


<modsnip>

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[jmcgladr]

These campgrounds tend to be very sparsely populated since is in the middle of ID nowhere near any big city . I also wanted to mention that this area is not wooded so it would be hard to get lost quickly. Did the family have dogs with them? If they did and the dog(s) were near the site they would alert to any wild animal even if they were concealed .my dogs would always know waaaay before me of nearby animals .

I haven't heard mention of any dogs (it's possible they did and the media just didn't mention it) but you're right, dogs would bark if there was a cougar nearby, and larger breed/hunting dogs would probably give chase.

 

[ninij9]

I just googled Idaho mountain cats. These mountain lions/cougars are huge. :-(

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[Purplepixii]

Info about the search can also be found here: https://m.facebook.com/SalmonSearchandRescue

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Well that's interesting:
"The following is a news release from the Lemhi County Sheriff's Office.
On July 10, 2015 at approximately 1435 (2:35 PM) Lemhi County Sheriff&#8217;s Office 911 Dispatch Center received a call from family members that their 2 ½ year old son went missing from their camp and had been missing for an hour."

BBM - when setting straight the witness statement on TV Dad admitted to being in his black truck with Deorr at 13:00 when buying a "filthy, bawling child candy". What actually happened between 13:00-14:35...?

ETA: I'm intrigued to know 1. What time dad left the campsite & 2. What time did he get back.

 

[Jules71]

There is now a Facebook page for Deorr.

https://m.facebook.com/FindDeorrKunz

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[Jules71]

Well that's interesting:
"The following is a news release from the Lemhi County Sheriff's Office.
On July 10, 2015 at approximately 1435 (2:35 PM) Lemhi County Sheriff’s Office 911 Dispatch Center received a call from family members that their 2 ½ year old son went missing from their camp and had been missing for an hour."

BBM - when setting straight the witness statement on TV Dad admitted to being in his black truck with Deorr at 13:00 when buying a "filthy, bawling child candy". What actually happened between 13:00-14:35...?

We need a complete timeline.

2:35 911 call
1:35 - 2:35 searching for Deorr

It was also stated by Dad I believe that it was around 2 he was hanging with grandpa close to nap time.

HE also stated they had not left the camp since 1300.

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