ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #13

[ILOKAL]

I really don't feel it's right for people to be bashing ANYONE in this case. As someone stated earlier-it's easy to be a "tough guy" behind a computer screen.

We have NO IDEA why the sheriff doesnt want random people searching the area. The FBI could have asked him to do that. It could be considered a crime scene. Who knows?

We don't know enough yet to say for sure that the parents are guilty of any crime.

Seriously people...search and rescue teams and dogs are amazing. They give their time to try to help people. Why would anyone want to say bad things about them?

I just dont get the vitriol being spewed everywhere in this case.

I don't think anyone is saying "bad" things about SAR dogs. To comment that sometimes they are affective and other times they are not is reality. To comment that SB may have relied too heavily on the dogs' abilities to find DeOrr seems to be the most probable, IMO. These dogs are not infallible and shouldn't be considered as such, IMO.

ETA: I don't "think" the area from which DeOrr disappeared is a "crime scene" as it still appears to be open to the public. It might actually be that anyone can search there anytime they want.

 

[Onebest]

That shouldn't matter. SAR K9s can and do follow skin rafts in the air, which we're all constantly shedding.

I'm not saying that dogs would for certain have been able to follow DeOrr's scent, but being carried off by a mtn. lion wouldn't necessarily interfere with that ability. Even across water.

Skin rafts would exist but we don't know how the scent of the cougar would affect the search dogs. We have talked about this a few threads back. Can't really answer it because we don't know anything about the particular dogs that were utilized. Also, a lot of SAR dogs are taught to ignore wild animals so its possible if you have wild animal scent, intermixed with human it could potentially cause problems for the scenting dogs. JMO

 

[Onebest]

Does anyone remember information on where IR went AFTER he went to the creek with DK and JM? If all three walked to the creek to look for fishing spots, were they together the entire time or did they split up after a few minutes? I am very curious about what the situation with IR was immediately after DK and JM realized their son was not with GGP and where IR was during the search? honestly, I don't remember reading about this.

 

[bessie]

Was that one K-9 that did that or has that happened on more than one occasion? I just know from researching cases of people lost in forests or other dense areas that they are often missed by the K-9's as well as various other search means. I just don't think it should be "expected" that K-9's will find the missing person or to conclude if they don't it means the person is not there.

Well, certainly not all dogs are equal, and not all handlers are equal. Nor are all search dogs trained in the same specialties. Here's one example of a dog trailing a scent over many miles. This isn't the incident I had in mind, but it's just as good as an example.

“Paul and the bloodhound trailed the scent, and I was in a truck behind him,” McDaniel remembers. “We came up to a four-way highway intersection and the dog … could have gone left or right, but he decided to go north. The dog followed scents for at least 25 miles until we found him at his wife’s gravesite. What we witnessed was simply amazing. It was an eye opener.”

More amazingly, the father-in-law had driven to the gravesite. The dog had managed to track him, even stopping at a store where the gentleman had refilled his gas tank.

http://www.850businessmagazine.com/...nine-Specialist-Trains-Dogs-to-Find-the-Lost/

A trailing dog (typically a Bloodhound), will pick up a scent on the ground and track it to the person or body. According to an information packet published by the Martha's Vineyard K-9 Unit, headed by Gina Hayes, the human body sheds 40,000 old cells each minute as new ones are made. These cells are acted upon by bacteria once they hit the air or ground, giving off a gaseous odor unique to that individual.

This type of scent is not the same as that from sweat. It is a lingering odor that can only be trailed by a dog, often called "forgotten evidence" because it can't be seen or smelled by humans.

Scents last longer in colder weather, but can be affected by time, wind and precipitation. Dogs have been known to follow trails that are 10 days old, even tracking people along highways, where car vents let the scent escape from an automobile.

http://www.massachusettsdogtrainer.com/id26.html

But just as important as dogs following a trail actually locating the subject, is the ability of the handler to recognize when the dog is telling him where the trail ends, and the person is NOT.

The team also learned to recognize when the dogs have concluded the person they were tracking is no longer in the area.

“This is so difficult to read,” she said.

Handlers must recognize the dog’s signal, especially after it has followed a scent track for several miles and then just stops. Some handlers might think the dog has given up. But in this case, the dogs were signaling the man’s scent had vanished at the point he got into the car.

http://www.trsar.org/TRSARDogTeam/Dogs-help-find.htm

 

[Mickshawn]

Does anyone remember information on where IR went AFTER he went to the creek with DK and JM? If all three walked to the creek to look for fishing spots, were they together the entire time or did they split up after a few minutes? I am very curious about what the situation with IR was immediately after DK and JM realized their son was not with GGP and where IR was during the search? honestly, I don't remember reading about this.

Didn't the sheriff in the picnic table interview say something like IR was upstream and the parents were downstream (or vice-versa)...??

 

[ILOKAL]

Bessie, those are interesting and amazing cases, no doubt. But just as no two handlers are alike, no two dogs are alike. Clearly some do better than others, as these examples show. Unfortunately, there is so much room for error or inability (due to various circumstances) that they just can not and should not be completely relied on.

 

[wondering25]

Unfortunately, from the cases I have read, dogs aren't always able to follow a scent, and in the case of a mountain lion, it would just grab and run. Since DeOrr is small, a mountain lion might carry rather than drag as they often do with smaller prey. The riparian adjacent to the creek would be a perfect area for a mountain lion to stalk from and it might have grabbed DeOrr as he went over the embankment. The forested areas surrounding the campsite are also areas where mountain lions stalk from. They avoid crossing or walking in an open field where they would be seen.

There were many scent dogs used ( forget the cremains dogs) just the regular human scent dogs. Whether the baby was carried off by a lion, dragged or picked up and carried up road to a to a waiting vehicle, a scent should have been picked up. instead the dogs circled .. went to the reservoir and came back. That tells me either all these dogs are incompetent, the baby was there at one time ( but perhaps not another) and that they returned to the campsite because that is where the scent was and they cannot find him after that because he got into his parent's vehicle and went off. Add to that the questionable to no sighting at the convenience store and it appears something is amiss. MOO

Could the other 2 POI be remembering seeing Deorr BEFORE the store trip and not after? Is SB telling the actual story? I guess he can tell us whatever he wants while this is under investigation..right? i don't know? If there is truly a crazy leering man out there this info is lost to the ages, imo. 3 months later and this guy is long gone..IMO

Anything i write is just my opinion

 

[Onebest]

Didn't the sheriff in the picnic table interview say something like IR was upstream and the parents were downstream (or vice-versa)...??

So perhaps IR, DK, and JM walked off together and then split up?

 

[Cardinal47]

<modsnip>My theories keep changing. I am curious how many others have also made some changes in their thoughts about what happened?

 

[Arnie M]

Didn't the sheriff in the picnic table interview say something like IR was upstream and the parents were downstream (or vice-versa)...??

Both could very well be true , not a problem nor a contradiction , IR first took the parents to where he found fish and then they likely went their separate ways exploring up or down the creek. A bit later the parents went to get DeOrr thinking he would like to see the minnows.

 

[ILOKAL]

There were many scent dogs used ( forget the cremains dogs) just the regular human scent dogs. Whether the baby was carried off by a lion, dragged or picked up and carried up road to a to a waiting vehicle, a scent should have been picked up. instead the dogs circled .. went to the reservoir and came back. That tells me either all these dogs are incompetent, the baby was there at one time ( but perhaps not another) and that they returned to the campsite because that is where the scent was and they cannot find him after that because he got into his parent's vehicle and went off. Add to that the questionable to no sighting at the convenience store and it appears something is amiss. MOO

Could the other 2 POI be remembering seeing Deorr BEFORE the store trip and not after? Is SB telling the actual story? I guess he can tell us whatever he wants while this is under investigation..right? i don't know? If there is truly a crazy leering man out there this info is lost to the ages, imo. 3 months later and this guy is long gone..IMO

Anything i write is just my opinion

Onebest at Post 583 explains why a mountain lion's scent may not have been picked up.

 

[neesaki]

<modsnip>

My theories keep changing. I am curious how many others have also made some changes in their thoughts about what happened?

I have several possible theories, some days I lean more heavily toward one than another, then it could change again in a day or few. I was just thinking of the evidence the PI stated was taken by the FBI, in particular the ax. Why would they take the ax, did they find blood on it and need to analyze for DNA, otherwise why take that particular item? Any ideas are welcome but I'm really just thinking out loud, lol.

 

[Arnie M]

<snip<
We have NO IDEA why the sheriff doesnt want random people searching the area. The FBI could have asked him to do that. It could be considered a crime scene. Who knows?
<snip>
I just dont get the vitriol being spewed everywhere in this case.

Hi Angiebla .. most likely the sheriff feels it would be irresponsible to open wide the doors for anyone and everyone to search , inexperienced searchers themselves could get lost or hurt etc. And if there is any evidence to be found they may not treat it properly or contaminate it , things like that

I think we have to place a lot of trust in the hundreds of searchers who are and have been there so far. We have not been given all the details , but that does not mean they didn't do a good job

And I sure agree with what you said about all the vitriol being spewed everywhere in this case . Some of those folks should be ashamed of themselves. The only thing that hasn't been thrown under the bus is the bus itself

 

[giagreen]

<modsnip>

I have several possible theories, some days I lean more heavily toward one than another, then it could change again in a day or few. I was just thinking of the evidence the PI stated was taken by the FBI, in particular the ax. Why would they take the ax, did they find blood on it and need to analyze for DNA, otherwise why take that particular item? Any ideas are welcome but I'm really just thinking out loud, lol.

I was thinking they took anything that could possibly be evidence with or with out a reason. Cause didn't they take a diaper also?

 

[giagreen]

I'm bothered by all the threats the family is said to be getting. And didn't someone earlier on this thread say that someone was stalking them? WHAT is going on here?

I can not believe its escalated to this. I believe it 100%. I was the one talking about the family being stalked and harassed. I am not going to say anymore as its against rules here. And I actually really like this rule when it comes to sm in this case.

There is something wrong here and I don't know exactly what. This isn't normal IMO. We have ideas and theory's. Some people like myself believe in the parents. Others don't. And that's all good. Its the hate and rage that is making me think there is more to it.

 

[Arnie M]

Reminders:

We do NOT sleuth family members' FB accounts or bring information from those pages over to Websleuths.

The SA (analysis blog) is NOT an approved blog to be linked here at WS.

:tyou:

Not only that , it is the most convoluted , mixed up , jumbled up , bunch of words I have ever tried to read .

I determined that by analyzing his statement analysis

 

[ILOKAL]

I can not believe its escalated to this. I believe it 100%. I was the one talking about the family being stalked and harassed. I am not going to say anymore as its against rules here. And I actually really like this rule when it comes to sm in this case.

There is something wrong here and I don't know exactly what. This isn't normal IMO. We have ideas and theory's. Some people like myself believe in the parents. Others don't. And that's all good. Its the hate and rage that is making me think there is more to it.

I don't "do" SM. I don't post and I don't read except if someone posts a link to a particular comment. Sounds like I'm better off for not doing so. I think there are some (not you) who follow SM in this case and then forget there are posters here who don't and they wonder why we don't "see" things the way they do. They also tend to use those SM comments in "defending" their theories and can't understand how others could possibly not see things the same way.

 

[Angiebla]

Hi Angiebla .. most likely the sheriff feels it would be irresponsible to open wide the doors for anyone and everyone to search , inexperienced searchers themselves could get lost or hurt etc. And if there is any evidence to be found they may not treat it properly or contaminate it , things like that

I think we have to place a lot of trust in the hundreds of searchers who are and have been there so far. We have not been given all the details , but that does not mean they didn't do a good job

And I sure agree with what you said about all the vitriol being spewed everywhere in this case . Some of those folks should be ashamed of themselves. The only thing that hasn't been thrown under the bus is the bus itself

Hi Arnie!

I completely agree the Sheriff might not want people there for liability reasons. You expressed my point better than I did.

 

[bessie]

Bessie, those are interesting and amazing cases, no doubt. But just as no two handlers are alike, no two dogs are alike. Clearly some do better than others, as these examples show.

This is the first sentence of my post: "Well, certainly not all dogs are equal, and not all handlers are equal."

Unfortunately, there is so much room for error or inability (due to various circumstances) that they just can not and should not be completely relied on.

I neither said, nor implied, otherwise.

 

[AuctionGal]

Back in thread #9, around the 700-750 post area, there was discussion about the use of infrared heat guns being used from the air. I never saw a link to confirm or any details on when they were used. Anyone know?

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