ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #13

[giagreen]

Nobody is making a monster out of a ml.

These are all simply facts. Ml are natural born killers. They hunt to live and live to hunt. No amount of cat food will change that. It is what it is. There is no domesticating these wild animals.

I don't understand how pointing out little tidbits about a ml is making it a monster.....yet nobody bats an eye when these parents are made out to be monsters based on absolutely nothing other then assumptions on how they should act. And judgments on every move they make.

 

[ILOKAL]

bbm -- exactly.

Hunting requires a great deal of energy. That's energy a big cat or little cat isn't going to expend unless the food is actually needed. Housecats -- domestic pet cats that are let outside rather than strays or ferals -- kill "for fun," if you will, but they also have a steady, reliably food supply. iow, they have food and therefore energy to waste. Wild animals of any kind are not going to waste energy just for a bit of fun hunting/killing.

That's not to say a mountain lion wasn't to blame here. I personally don't subscribe to that theory, though. Just that IF a ML was to blame, it did it to eat -- not just for funsies. Still a tragedy, but there's no point in making the animal out to be some kind of super-evil monster. It's not. It's just an animal trying to survive.

Did you REALLY miss my reply to neesaki's post on the previous page, Post #792? I listed a minimum of seven sources (I stopped at seven as it becomes repetitious) that state that mountain lions DO sometimes kill more than they can consume and kill even when they're not hungry. Not just females with kittens kill more than they can consume. One lion, e.g., was a healthy, 3-4 yo male. They don't just kill as a means of survival no matter how much you wish that to be true. No, they are not pussycats.

 

[pepelepolecat]

Nobody is making a monster out of a ml.

These are all simply facts. Ml are natural born killers. They hunt to live and live to hunt. No amount of cat food will change that. It is what it is. There is no domesticating these wild animals.

I don't understand how pointing out little tidbits about a ml is making it a monster.....yet nobody bats an eye when these parents are made out to be monsters based on absolutely nothing other then assumptions on how they should act. And judgments on every move they make.

No one said a word about domesticating a mountain lion or feeding it cat food. That would be utter nonsense. I'm not even sure how you got that from anything I posted.

And plenty of eyes have been batted -- and posts removed -- when people cross the line and violate the victim-friendly TOS, which has been clearly stated AND repeated over and over again.

The point I was trying to make was that claiming mountain lions kill just for fun is patently wrong. They are alpha predators and natural hunters -- but even at that, they don't just kill for sport. Humans are about the only animal that does that (unless you count trained dogs and ).

It's entirely possible a ML attacked him. But it's just as likely if not more likely that a two-legged predator got him. It's also just as likely that he is in the water (which is second in my list after a human attack/abduction).

 

[giagreen]

No one said a word about domesticating a mountain lion or feeding it cat food. That would be utter nonsense. I'm not even sure how you got that from anything I posted.

And plenty of eyes have been batted -- and posts removed -- when people cross the line and violate the victim-friendly TOS, which has been clearly stated AND repeated over and over again.

The point I was trying to make was that claiming mountain lions kill just for fun is patently wrong. They are alpha predators and natural hunters -- but even at that, they don't just kill for sport. Humans are about the only animal that does that (unless you count trained dogs and ).

It's entirely possible a ML attacked him. But it's just as likely if not more likely that a two-legged predator got him. It's also just as likely that he is in the water (which is second in my list after a human attack/abduction).

"The mountain lion, like the domestic cat with a mouse, will kill for the sake of killing. A lion may kill many more animals in an attack than it can possibly consume. Lions have killed as many as twenty sheep at one time."

http://www.aws.vcn.com/mountain_lion_fact_sheet.html

 

[ILOKAL]

"The mountain lion, like the domestic cat with a mouse, will kill for the sake of killing. A lion may kill many more animals in an attack than it can possibly consume. Lions have killed as many as twenty sheep at one time."

http://www.aws.vcn.com/mountain_lion_fact_sheet.html

Yes, giagreen, they do and I posted several more links at my Post #792 that say the same thing. And it's not just females with kittens either.

 

[Dee10]

This is the end of the week that Sheriff B. was going to a meeting in Idaho Falls to discuss the next step in this investigation with the Bonneville Dept. I wonder if the FBI behavior analysis is in? I'm just thinking why talk about the next step until that's available. SB said, in the interview with Nate this was going to be 'critical'. I also wonder if they will try and re-do some or all of the polys so the analysts can agree or maybe they have done this already?

 

[ILOKAL]

Here ya go. Even MORE sources than at Post #792:

https://books.google.com/books?id=U...e&q=surplus killing by mountain lions&f=false

http://file.lacounty.gov/dacc/cms1_029781.pdf

http://www.desertusa.com/animals/mountain-lion-attacks.html

https://www.edcgov.us/Ag/Mountain_Lions.aspx

 

[ILOKAL]

Mountain lions will generally "move" the carcass after each feeding:

https://www.edcgov.us/Ag/Mountain_Lions.aspx

 

[neesaki]

Neesaki, I know that you and giagreen, as well as myself and others, have done a lot of reading (lately) about mountain lions so we can learn more about them and to better understand them. Although I don't want to see mountain lions maligned, I DO want to know as much accurate information about them as is possible.

I too have read that mountain lions sometimes kill even when they're not hungry and kill more than they could ever consume. I will try to find places where I read that. Here's a link with that information from an independent researcher in South Dakota:

http://www.aws.vcn.com/mountain_lion_fact_sheet.html

I will see if I can find more and I will edit to add them to this post.

https://books.google.com/books?id=3...q=cougars kill more than they can eat&f=false

https://books.google.com/books?id=t...q=cougars kill more than they can eat&f=false

https://books.google.com/books?id=i...q=cougars kill more than they can eat&f=false

https://books.google.com/books?id=H...q=cougars kill more than they can eat&f=false

https://americanexpedition.us/mountain-lion-facts

http://www.oregonlive.com/clackamascounty/index.ssf/2015/10/livestock-killing_cougar_shot.html

These sources and many more all say mountain lions DO sometimes kill more than they can possibly consume and kill even when not hungry. The known killing lion in at least one case was actually an adult male age 3-4 rather than a female with kittens to feed. I didn't read all the details in all the sources so I don't know if the sex was determined in other cases.

Wow, I should have done more research, :scared: I do remember reading somewhere about a mountain lion killing a lot of sheep but I assumed it was an isolated incident. I had just finished reading your post and the thought came to my mind "like a cat with a mouse", it's like a game they can't resist. Then I read that very thing in one of your links. Thanks for setting me straight, and Giagreen, you were right. :wave:

The mountain lion, like the domestic cat with a mouse, will kill for the sake of killing.

http://www.aws.vcn.com/mountain_lion_fact_sheet.html

 

[neesaki]

I think its worth taking a look at the Jaryd Atadero story. IMO we can all learn a lot from his story. A three year old boy who disappeared while hiking with a group of people in 1999. He was running ahead on and off ahead of the group so he could jump out and say "boo". He was missing for about 20 min before people noticed. For THREE whole years there was no clues as to what happen to him.
There were searches. There were dogs. They used helicopters. And nothing was found for three years till two hikers in 2003 stumbled acrossed some of Jaryds clothes a piece of his skull and a tooth just about 500 feet from where he was last seen. Jaryd was killed by a mountain lion. Yet some how dogs, searchers, and helicopters missed him repeatedly in their search. Two groups of adults never heard a thing. There were no screams or sounds of him being carried off. No blood trail. Nothing.
Another interesting tidbit about all this is Jaryd's shoes where not tied and many believed for years if he had been taken by a ml the shoes would of fell off and been found but they were not. When they were found 3.5 years later they were clean and still in good shape.


http://www.nytimes.com/1999/10/06/us/dogs-search-for-boy-3-in-mountains-of-colorado.html

http://www.cnn.com/US/9910/07/missing.boy.01/index.html
http://www.angelfire.com/co/KlueLass/lions/attacks2.htm

I agree, very much like this case. And the adults that were supposed to be watching him really weren't. I first read about his case in one of the 411 books. Of course Paulides as usual implies that something more, ahemmm.... mysterious happened

 

[neesaki]

bbm -- exactly.

Hunting requires a great deal of energy. That's energy a big cat or little cat isn't going to expend unless the food is actually needed. Housecats -- domestic pet cats that are let outside rather than strays or ferals -- kill "for fun," if you will, but they also have a steady, reliably food supply. iow, they have food and therefore energy to waste. Wild animals of any kind are not going to waste energy just for a bit of fun hunting/killing.

That's not to say a mountain lion wasn't to blame here. I personally don't subscribe to that theory, though. Just that IF a ML was to blame, it did it to eat -- not just for funsies. Still a tragedy, but there's no point in making the animal out to be some kind of super-evil monster. It's not. It's just an animal trying to survive.

After reading the links posted by Ilokal it appears that some mountain lions are very aggressive and relentless killers, but I'm thinking that some perhaps are not like that. I guess there can be differences in temperament, just as with bears. Some are very aggressive towards humans and some not so much.

 

[ILOKAL]

After reading the links posted by Ilokal it appears that some mountain lions are very aggressive and relentless killers, but I'm thinking that some perhaps are not like that. I guess there can be differences in temperament, just as with bears. Some are very aggressive towards humans and some not so much.

I'm not so sure that those lions that surplus kill are necessarily more aggressive. Some of what I have found indicates it is uncontrollable instinct. IOW, when farm animals (for instance) are fenced in, the mountain lion realizes this and knows they are easy targets and won't (actually) require ANY aggression to kill them. They need not be hungry at all, but the instinct to kill easy prey can't be overcome. Obviously in the wild where the prey runs free, this doesn't happen. But it DOES explain why human interactions are against children more than adults. The simpler the prey is to grab and kill, the more likely it is to happen.

 

[giagreen]

I agree, very much like this case. And the adults that were supposed to be watching him really weren't. I first read about his case in one of the 411 books. Of course Paulides as usual implies that something more, ahemmm.... mysterious happened

As I was googling more about Jaryd's case I ran across the 411 youtube video and other info from him. And yeah I just don't think bigfoot had anything to do with this. Lol

I mean not because I don't believe in Bigfoot or anything I just think he's a really nice guy who happens to be a vegetarian!!!!!! [emoji12]

 

[margol29]

I have been following this sad case since the beginning and I have very few posts because most of what I was thinking has already been posted and said much better than I could have. I have been going back and forth over what has happened to little DeOrr. First I was sure that he was in the reservoir. Then when nothing surfaced many weeks after his disappearance I began to suspect foul play on the part of one of the POIs. SB is very cagy in his interviews. He acts like he is not sure of some of the facts, ie is there video or not or who saw who in the store, etc. I believe he knows a lot more than he lets on. I was trying to come up with a scenario of how DeOrr could go missing without all the search teams finding any trace of him. This is only my opinion and should not be taken as anything other than that. MOO! Imagine this: DK, JM and IR are walking towards the bank to check out fishing spots, DK asks DeOrr if he wants to go with them or stay with GGP. DeOrr says he wants to stay. The parents go over the bank. DeOrr is walking back to GGP when he suddenly decides he want to go with his parents. Just at that time GGP turns his head to look at something else giving DeOrr enough time to run back over the bank. By the time GGP looks back DeOrr is out of sight. Meanwhile, DK and the rest are up stream looking at fishing spots. The creek is loud and they do not see or hear DeOrr coming down the embankment. DeOrr stumbles and falls the rest of the way down to the creek. Somewhere along the way he hits his head and get knocked unconscious. He ends up in the water and the rushing stream carries him downstream and out of sight before DK, JM and IR turn back to look for fishing spots downstream. The rest is history. If the creek was running strong enough little DeOrr could have been carried downstream past the search zone before help arrived. I think they should check the area where the creek empties. I believe that I read in a previous post that it empties into another river. That could be where they eventually find him.
Poor little guy.
This post is my opinion only.
It would be interesting to know which way DK,JM and IR went when they were looking at fishing spots, upstream or downstream.

 

[ILOKAL]

I have been following this sad case since the beginning and I have very few posts because most of what I was thinking has already been posted and said much better than I could have. I have been going back and forth over what has happened to little DeOrr. First I was sure that he was in the reservoir. Then when nothing surfaced many weeks after his disappearance I began to suspect foul play on the part of one of the POIs. SB is very cagy in his interviews. He acts like he is not sure of some of the facts, ie is there video or not or who saw who in the store, etc. I believe he knows a lot more than he lets on. I was trying to come up with a scenario of how DeOrr could go missing without all the search teams finding any trace of him. This is only my opinion and should not be taken as anything other than that. MOO! Imagine this: DK, JM and IR are walking towards the bank to check out fishing spots, DK asks DeOrr if he wants to go with them or stay with GGP. DeOrr says he wants to stay. The parents go over the bank. DeOrr is walking back to GGP when he suddenly decides he want to go with his parents. Just at that time GGP turns his head to look at something else giving DeOrr enough time to run back over the bank. By the time GGP looks back DeOrr is out of sight. Meanwhile, DK and the rest are up stream looking at fishing spots. The creek is loud and they do not see or hear DeOrr coming down the embankment. DeOrr stumbles and falls the rest of the way down to the creek. Somewhere along the way he hits his head and get knocked unconscious. He ends up in the water and the rushing stream carries him downstream and out of sight before DK, JM and IR turn back to look for fishing spots downstream. The rest is history. If the creek was running strong enough little DeOrr could have been carried downstream past the search zone before help arrived. I think they should check the area where the creek empties. I believe that I read in a previous post that it empties into another river. That could be where they eventually find him.
Poor little guy.
This post is my opinion only.
It would be interesting to know which way DK,JM and IR went when they were looking at fishing spots, upstream or downstream.

Many posters also believe DeOrr may have fallen in the creek and drowned. I also believe it's a possibility.

 

[Rayemonde]

I had the same idea, but other posters posted pictures of the Creek, and it's so shallow and full of debris that I don't think it would be possible for DeOrr to be washed away by it.

 

[Dee10]

Snipped by me

It would be interesting to know which way DK,JM and IR went when they were looking at fishing spots, upstream or downstream.

From two different interviews:

SB: That’s correct! The family came back to the campground. Uh the friend said he was catching some fish and, and the parents said, “Well can you show us the fish?” They start down to the creek which is about 50 feet below the campground, and it’s not very well observed from the campground, in fact you actually can’t see the creek. You can hear it.

05:19
TG: Mmm hmm.

05:19
SB: And they turned and looked at their son and asked him if he wanted to stay with Grandpa or go with them, and he said, “Grandpa,” and started walking towards uh Grandpa. So, mom and dad go down over the creek with…with the friend. They start doing some fishing. Grandpa says he’s watching the child


“Where was Mr. Redwand during all of this?”

Sheriff Bowerman:
Using his hands to demonstrate…

“He was in the same general proximity. The creek…it’s just over the bank…um…He’s downstream. They’re upstream, uh…they’re all within probably (head nodding left to right) 100 to 150 feet of each other. “

 

[Rayemonde]

There's some good footage of the Creek and reservoir here:

http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/loca...andfather-believes-boy-was-abducted/30321903/

 

[Dee10]

This is a short video of the campsite, creek & bank. Nate showed the direction the parents went, however it is different from what the sheriff said about going over the bank.

http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/07/a-closer-look-the-campground-where-deorr-kunz-disappeared/

 

[MsFacetious]

On my phone so I can't search but didn't see this on the last couple pages. Sorry if it's a repeat.

Utah Toddler Has Close Call With Mountain Lion

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=37062972&ni...at-deer-hunt-camp&fm=home_page&s_cid=topstory