ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #13

[ILOKAL]

Normally, two types of investigation start at the beginning of a missing child/adult case (missing person and criminal). They will run parallel investigations until it is decided which way they are led by the evidence and other factors then they will lump it together under the same heading. They don't want to miss critical steps for a criminal proceeding by ignoring the possibility.

We know this was happening because of the reference SB gave about the drones being used to photograph the area:

Sheriff Bowerman also confirmed that drones are being brought to the Timber Creek/ Stone Reservoir area but doesn't believe they will be used in the search. Instead the drones will be used to document the area for evidence if a trial in connection to DeOrr's disappearance is ever convened.

http://www.localnews8.com/news/new-details-on-search-for-deorr-kunz-jr/34281340

BBM

It occurred to me that evidence from the drones could also be important in the event of a civil case brought by the parents. If DeOrr should be found in the forest and his cause of death can be determined, it might indicate liability against the government.

 

[SweetT]

When a child goes missing in a campground, imo, one has to treat it as if the child is lost. It is imperative that the search begins immediately for a child walking away and lost in the woods. It is the only way the chid can be saved if that is what happened. The other options can be investigated later. If a child was abducted then it is sad it takes a bit longer to check that situation out. But it is much less likely that the child lost scenario, imo.

I agree you do your search etc, but maybe you can put one officer strictly to interviewing, searching vehicles,keeping tabs on all persons in the campground. Especially since there seems to have been only Deorrs family and the elderly couple. Have one LE officer gathering all pertinent information on that end while letting the rest do the searches until such a time that others can be freed up for other things. That way at least maybe you can control the scene etc a little better.

 

[Cardinal47]

This last page of posts sum up the investigation to date. Kind of brings everything together. Thank you.

 

[Rayemonde]

It occurred to me that evidence from the drones could also be important in the event of a civil case brought by the parents. If DeOrr should be found in the forest and his cause of death can be determined, it might indicate liability against the government.

How could the government possibly be liable?

 

[ILOKAL]

There were four adults at the scene who all said Deorr suddenly disappeared. I suppose once LE heard all their stories is when they began to look at it a different way. Calling in other agencies including the missing and exploited children's group.

It would seem that LE would have heard all their stories first thing, however, they didn't bring in the FBI, for example, until three weeks later. It doesn't seem as though their "stories" were what caused LE to look a different way. IMO

 

[ILOKAL]

How could the government possibly be liable?

If, for example, DeOrr was taken and killed by a mountain lion and no warnings about the presence and dangers of mountain lions were posted, the government could be held liable. There are previous cases in California for the same thing.

 

[Dee10]

It would seem that LE would have heard all their stories first thing, however, they didn't bring in the FBI, for example, until three weeks later. It doesn't seem as though their "stories" were what caused LE to look a different way. IMO

Just suggestions of other possibilities. It could be after LE was satisfied with the search efforts and not finding DeOrr,, they asked more probing questions, could be stories did not add up, could be a problems with polys, could be a lot of different reasons or a combination or reasons the Sheriff choose to label the 4 campers POIs (yet not the other campers) & a few days later he called in the FBI. There's a reason why the FBI IIRC want these 4 re-interviewed. I believe there are good reasons for the Sheriff for ruling out different scenarios that have to do with reasons or evidence that we are not privy to.

 

[bessie]

08:46
SB: No, at this time I don’t consider them suspects, uh, and the only reason I’m calling them a person of interest is because they were at the scene. Uh, they’re the only people at the scene other than one family that was at the upper lake that was from another county and…and the law enforcement in that jurisdiction, we talked about has vouched for them and uh they’re an older couple, and we’ve been reassured by law enforcement that they would not be involved in any abduction or any of that sorts so um…

08:46
SB: No, at this time I don’t consider them suspects, uh, and the only reason I’m calling them a person of interest is because they were at the scene.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-**NO-DISCUSSION-quot&p=12122056#post12122056

 

[giagreen]

So I was just reading info on the FBI. I'm not sure if I'm reading this right or fully understand but FBI doesn't get involved in cases like this unless if its believed that a child was taken across state lines or there has been a kidnapping?

 

[ILOKAL]

Just suggestions of other possibilities. It could be after LE was satisfied with the search efforts and not finding DeOrr,, they asked more probing questions, could be stories did not add up, could be a problems with polys, could be a lot of different reasons or a combination or reasons the Sheriff choose to label the 4 campers POIs (yet not the other campers) & a few days later he called in the FBI. There's a reason why the FBI IIRC want these 4 re-interviewed. I believe there are good reasons for the Sheriff for ruling out different scenarios that have to do with reasons or evidence that we are not privy to.

I don't get the impression that the FBI specifically has said they want the four re-interviewed. Rather, IMO, the FBI couldn't come up with any evidence of a crime either, yet DeOrr IS gone. The FBI likely suggested the sheriff start over with EVERYTHING, from the ground (literally) up. I also am not under the impression that the sheriff requested assistance from the FBI because of the answers to more probing questions or problems with polygraphs. The sheriff has made it abundantly clear why he named them POI which is because they were "there", with DeOrr, camping, AT the campsite, when he disappeared. He also said they are NOT suspects. The elderly couple may be witnesses but they're not POI. IMO

ETA: The sheriff has said be requested the FBI's assistance because of his limited and expended resources and to make sure they had NOT missed anything. Heck, Sheriff Bowerman even conferred with the FBI regarding a wolf and coyote killing derby in Lemhi County.

http://www.boiseweekly.com/boise/wolves-in-the-church/Content?oid=3042969

 

[haven71]

Sorry, that was me speculating and I should have been more clear.

Me too.

 

[haven71]

This is all my own opinion.
I feel like initially, the Sherriff’s department thought that this was simply a toddler that wandered into the woods and the parents were panicking. I don’t think they did everything at the onset that was comprehensive and would have included investigating the possibility of foul play/abduction.
Some of the things that have led me to that conclusion is the fact that it took so long for the first SOs to even arrive. The information that there were campers there but that they left and were only checked out afterwards. Just those two things make me think they weren’t treating the area as a potential crime scent.
The stories we keep getting have more/different details. I don’t think the POIs were initially questioned as if there might have been a crime. I think the SOs got the bare bones details and figured time is of the essence and started the ground search. I think the details have come out much later and a little different because it took the Sherriff a long time to come to the conclusion that something other than “getting lost” might have happened. Therefore, the real questioning happened much later, after the fact, and it appears, in pieces. That would explain the comment, “We learned during the investigation that they arrived on Thursday.” It would appear, they didn’t get all of the facts, stories and evidence as soon as they arrived.
Another comment that made me think the Sherriff had a preconceived notion and didn’t consider anything else is when he said “We should have found him there.” To me that statement means I know he wandered off, I can’t believe we can’t find him.
To be clear, I think abduction is the least likely scenario but I do think that when you go into a situation with the “answer” already in your head you are likely to miss things that don’t align with that.
Of course, this is all my own opinion.

Wow, these have been my thoughts exactly!

What bothers me is that the road into and out of the campground was not secured. I'm guessing that there aren't too many cars or officers to spare who work in that particular area. I hope it wasn't just a case of not enough manpower. SB heard a child was missing near a creek at a campground, and the urgency would be...we've got to hurry and find him ASAP, he's a lost child. It was a major endeavor with the tracking dogs and searchers. JMO opinion but measures should've been taken immediately to secure the area, just in case!!! Honestly it leaves me baffled. I'm obviously not LE but I think its a safe assumption that they would've thought ahead and acted accordingly.

 

[Dee10]

I don't get the impression that the FBI specifically has said they want the four re-interviewed. Rather, IMO, the FBI couldn't come up with any evidence of a crime either, yet DeOrr IS gone. The FBI likely suggested the sheriff start over with EVERYTHING, from the ground (literally) up. I also am not under the impression that the sheriff requested assistance from the FBI because of the answers to more probing questions or problems with polygraphs. The sheriff has made it abundantly clear why he named them POI which is because they were "there", with DeOrr, camping, AT the campsite, when he disappeared. He also said they are NOT suspects. The elderly couple may be witnesses but they're not POI. IMO

ETA: The sheriff has said be requested the FBI's assistance because of his limited and expended resources and to make sure they had NOT missed anything.

You have the right to your own opinion, I was only adding other possibilities. The Sheriff also wanted the FBI to test some evidence and behavior analysis as well. Apparently some evidence they couldn't test and the behavior analysis is not in IIRC

 

[Onebest]

Onebest, I came across that sight yesterday and it is fascinating. Giving all that dogs and their handlers need to learn to become proficient SAR teams, what amount of time does the team spend in its initial training and any follow-up training? I think someone (perhaps it was you) mentioned this previously but I can't remember what was said. Thanks so much for your informative and insightful posts.

I am sorry I missed your question! I train Something daily if possible on my own, I have two working K9's, one certified and mission ready, one in training. It takes about two years to certify a SAR K9, some more some less. Some are certified in multiple diciplines. Our full K9 Team training is held 3-4 times a month. We pick highly varied terrain to practice. Practice usually lasts 4-5 hours. We attend professional seminar trainings out of town several times a year. We also collaborate with other team trainings and practice with other counties. Our full SAR team training with other disciplines (snow, water, horse, etc) is held annually with the Sheriff's Office coordinating much of it.

Each team (handler and K9) are required to certify with independent unbiased evaluators every two years. Our county utilized the testing of the National Search Dog Alliance. Many teams in the state I reside (WA) used it as well. There are other testing venues also used. Some teams require testing annually like what is established with the NAPWDA< North American Police Working Dog Association. Both of these organizations have standards and testing requirements available on their web sites.

We are required to certify ourselves (field operational handler) by attending SAR Academy in our counties and update our skills at monthly meetings/training. We have to maintain operational level within our counties by meeting the the required core competencies. Please know, there are assignments I would turn down because I do not think we are qualified.

Aside notation; this is all volunteer: time, materials and resources. We advocate for families to work with local volunteer SAR resources and not pay for SAR response. Typically, organizations that charge for SAR response are not responding for the right, ethical, or altruistic principles. In all the states, SAR is a volunteer response. The family should not have to pay for assistance during a time of tragedy. Fund Raising to support organizations such as Klass Kids, etc is not done by charging a family in grief. These are very fine, highly skilled searchers that come alongside the local SO to support and assist. I happen to know that the K9 training for their teams is highly advanced, extremely difficult and scrupulously maintained.

Lot of other information available but perhaps this will help. I am speaking out of personal experience only. Thanks for asking! JMO.

 

[Onebest]

Onebest, I asked you a question at my Post #655 because of your expertise with SAR. I'm afraid you may have missed it. If you have the time, perhaps you could educate me a bit. Thanks so much.

Did it ILOKAL. Sorry I missed it the first time....

 

[ILOKAL]

I am sorry I missed your question! I train Something daily if possible on my own, I have two working K9's, one certified and mission ready, one in training. It takes about two years to certify a SAR K9, some more some less. Some are certified in multiple diciplines. Our full K9 Team training is held 3-4 times a month. We pick highly varied terrain to practice. Practice usually lasts 4-5 hours. We attend professional seminar trainings out of town several times a year. We also collaborate with other team trainings and practice with other counties. Our full SAR team training with other disciplines (snow, water, horse, etc) is held annually with the Sheriff's Office coordinating much of it.

Each team (handler and K9) are required to certify with independent unbiased evaluators every two years. Our county utilized the testing of the National Search Dog Alliance. Many teams in the state I reside (WA) used it as well. There are other testing venues also used. Some teams require testing annually like what is established with the NAPWDA< North American Police Working Dog Association. Both of these organizations have standards and testing requirements available on their web sites.

We are required to certify ourselves (field operational handler) by attending SAR Academy in our counties and update our skills at monthly meetings/training. We have to maintain operational level within our counties by meeting the the required core competencies. Please know, there are assignments I would turn down because I do not think we are qualified.

Aside notation; this is all volunteer: time, materials and resources. We advocate for families to work with local volunteer SAR resources and not pay for SAR response. Typically, organizations that charge for SAR response are not responding for the right, ethical, or altruistic principles. In all the states, SAR is a volunteer response. The family should not have to pay for assistance during a time of tragedy. Fund Raising to support organizations such as Klass Kids, etc is not done by charging a family in grief. These are very fine, highly skilled searchers that come alongside the local SO to support and assist. I happen to know that the K9 training for their teams is highly advanced, extremely difficult and scrupulously maintained.

Lot of other information available but perhaps this will help. I am speaking out of personal experience only. Thanks for asking! JMO.

Thank you so much Onebest for your informative reply. Like I said, I coincidentally came across the site yesterday that you recommended to a poster up thread today, The Hound and The Found. What a fascinating and educational site. Just amazing! After reading some of the information there, I realized that the training for an SAR team must be quite lengthy and involved in order to learn all those variances and conditions. It's simply so very generous and loving to give of yourself and your time to help those who so desperately need you. It's an honor and a pleasure to have "met" you.

 

[ILOKAL]

You have the right to your own opinion, I was only adding other possibilities. The Sheriff also wanted the FBI to test some evidence and behavior analysis as well. Apparently some evidence they couldn't test and the behavior analysis is not in IIRC

The "evidence" the FBI is unable to test might be the soiled diaper since they don't test urine or feces. Just a guess on my part. Did the sheriff make any statement about the behavior analysis? From the time the sheriff first announced that he had requested the assistance of the FBI, he stated that the FBI report would be key to solving this case (or words to that affect), yet at this point in time, that no longer seems to be the case. Everything seems to be back to Square One. IMO

 

[Mickshawn]

I am sorry I missed your question! I train Something daily if possible on my own, I have two working K9's, one certified and mission ready, one in training. It takes about two years to certify a SAR K9, some more some less. Some are certified in multiple diciplines. Our full K9 Team training is held 3-4 times a month. We pick highly varied terrain to practice. Practice usually lasts 4-5 hours. We attend professional seminar trainings out of town several times a year. We also collaborate with other team trainings and practice with other counties. Our full SAR team training with other disciplines (snow, water, horse, etc) is held annually with the Sheriff's Office coordinating much of it.

Each team (handler and K9) are required to certify with independent unbiased evaluators every two years. Our county utilized the testing of the National Search Dog Alliance. Many teams in the state I reside (WA) used it as well. There are other testing venues also used. Some teams require testing annually like what is established with the NAPWDA< North American Police Working Dog Association. Both of these organizations have standards and testing requirements available on their web sites.

We are required to certify ourselves (field operational handler) by attending SAR Academy in our counties and update our skills at monthly meetings/training. We have to maintain operational level within our counties by meeting the the required core competencies. Please know, there are assignments I would turn down because I do not think we are qualified.

Aside notation; this is all volunteer: time, materials and resources. We advocate for families to work with local volunteer SAR resources and not pay for SAR response. Typically, organizations that charge for SAR response are not responding for the right, ethical, or altruistic principles. In all the states, SAR is a volunteer response. The family should not have to pay for assistance during a time of tragedy. Fund Raising to support organizations such as Klass Kids, etc is not done by charging a family in grief. These are very fine, highly skilled searchers that come alongside the local SO to support and assist. I happen to know that the K9 training for their teams is highly advanced, extremely difficult and scrupulously maintained.

Lot of other information available but perhaps this will help. I am speaking out of personal experience only. Thanks for asking! JMO.

Wow, Onebest...I have such admiration for all you give to people...all of you. Thank you for your dedication, time, belief.....etc. What breed(s) are your dogs?

 

[bessie]

So I was just reading info on the FBI. I'm not sure if I'm reading this right or fully understand but FBI doesn't get involved in cases like this unless if its believed that a child was taken across state lines or there has been a kidnapping?

FBI Jurisdiction in Child Kidnappings
In the public eye—and even in some state and local law enforcement circles—there are common misconceptions about when the FBI can get involved in child kidnappings. That there has to be evidence a victim has been taken across state lines. Or that a ransom demand has to be made. Or that 24 hours must pass.

All are false.

Whether the case ends up being investigated and prosecuted at the local level or at the federal level, the Bureau will always leverage our investigative resources and technical assets to work hand in hand with state and local law enforcement agencies on cases involving the mysterious disappearance of a child. Our role is to help investigate the disappearance, recover the child, and apprehend the person or persons responsible.

And that role begins as soon as we’re notified
https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/20...ild-abductions/investigating-child-abductions

Our field offices respond to cases involving the mysterious disappearance of a child whenever and however they come to our attention. All reports of circumstances indicating that a minor has or possibly has been abducted are afforded an immediate preliminary inquiry.

In this initial inquiry, we evaluate all evidence, circumstances, and information to determine if an investigation is warranted under federal law. (For instance, it is a federal violation for a person to travel between states to engage in any sexual act with a person under 18.) If a case is warranted, we will immediately open an investigation in partnership with state and local authorities.

During 2012 alone, law enforcement entered 797,400 children as missing into the FBI’s National Crime Information Center database. Although the majority of these children were temporarily missing and not abducted, we are committed to assisting law enforcement in investigating cases where there is appropriate jurisdiction.

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/vc_majorthefts/cac/non-family-abductions

Law Enforcement Assistance

This is the arm of the FBI that has been popularized by television and movies. FBI teams are sent to local law enforcement agencies to help handle investigations. There are times when the FBI agents are there to support the local police, and there are times when the FBI agents are there is take over an investigation the local police cannot handle.

The FBI has one of the most sophisticated crime labs in the world, and they can send evidence for analysis to Quantico much more quickly than a local police agency can get the same evidence tested. The FBI also supports state investigative agencies. Every state has its own version of the FBI, and that state agency often turns to the FBI for assistance.

Finally, local law enforcement agencies call on the FBI immediately when they know they have a case that is too big for them. The local police are wise to contact the FBI when an investigation has just begun. The involvement of the FBI often forces thieves to make rash decisions, and the extra manpower can help to solve crimes quickly.
http://www.criminaljusticedegreehub.com/fbi/

 

[Onebest]

U

Thank you so much Onebest for your informative reply. Like I said, I coincidentally came across the site yesterday that you recommended to a poster up thread today, The Hound and The Found. What a fascinating and educational site. Just amazing! After reading some of the information there, I realized that the training for an SAR team must be quite lengthy and involved in order to learn all those variances and conditions. It's simply so very generous and loving to give of yourself and your time to help those who so desperately need you. It's an honor and a pleasure to have "met" you.

You touch my heart, thank you for you kind words!