ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #14

[bessie]

I believe this is from a closed FB discussion group that JM has been posting on and answering questions. Not sure we can discuss it.....?

No, not if it's a closed group. Any questions or comments should be directed to an admin or mod in a private message.

Thanks.

 

[neesaki]

A reputable source? Isn't it an online magazine for hunters? If you're going to make extraordinary claims that go against scientific knowledge, you need a better source than that if you want to convince anybody.

ETA the other source you linked to, about when mountain lions breed, was more convincing because it was at least an official government site. And it stated that as a rule, mountain lions avoid people and anything to do with people. Like campgrounds.

I think the problem is that mountain lions can no longer totally avoid people, it's just not possible anymore because there are more people who now encroach on the lions territory. Also, in some areas, there are now also more lions. So if everywhere a ML goes he encounters people, he then moves on to avoid them then what... encounters more people. This could explain how small children are at the wrong place at the wrong time and end up being the victim of a ML attack. I'm not saying that is what happened to Deorr, but it is a possibility as much as anything else at this point. Unless there's evidence we're unaware of, which is very possible. JMO

Though this article doesn't reference Idaho in particular, it is very informative and interesting reading. And it has nothing to do with hunters.

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles/sheley50.html

Near the top of North America's wildlife food chain is the mountain lion, a close second to bears in various forms in ferocity, strength, and killing ability. In recent years, the wild felines, also known variously as panthers, pumas, cougars, catmounts (cat of the mountains), and big cat, increasingly have become entangled with every animal's worst enemy—man.
Human populations relentlessly encroach on the lions' domains while laws protecting them or regulating their depredation have increased the lion population as well.

 

[Cardinal47]

Off subject but the posts are showing up an hour later than my home time. Do I need to change something.

I have it set to Central Time Zone which is which I am in.

TIA

 

[neesaki]

Off subject but the posts are showing up an hour later than my home time. Do I need to change something.

I have it set to Central Time Zone which is which I am in.

TIA

Is your computer set for daylight savings time, Cardinal ?

 

[bessie]

Off subject but the posts are showing up an hour later than my home time. Do I need to change something.

I have it set to Central Time Zone which is which I am in.

TIA

Go to your user settings, and make sure the option is checked to automatically adjust to Daylight Saving Time.

 

[Lilibet]

Rhetorical question: Weren't we asked much earlier by a mod to agree to disagree about mountain lions? Or is that just wishful thinking on my part? Maybe the mountain lion discussion/debate continues because there really isn't anything much we can talk about. It's kind of a dead end at this point IMO, but I guess that's just me.

I wish I could come up with a new topic to discuss besides predatory behavior, and maybe someone else can. Or maybe we have done all the productive sleuthing we can do for now. :dunno: It happens. JMO

IMO The best case scenario is that a kind, but misguided person found him wandering and took him home, deciding he was neglected and shouldn't be with his parents. That's wrong, but there are people who could think that way. I'm not saying that it's any more likely than an animal, but at least he would be alive. Maybe that's why I'm kind of done with the rather gruesome mountain lion (bear, wolf) debate. Time for me to go back to scrolling and rolling. Carry on. eace:

 

[Rayemonde]

Rhetorical question: Weren't we asked much earlier by a mod to agree to disagree about mountain lions? Or is that just wishful thinking on my part? Maybe the mountain lion discussion/debate continues because there really isn't anything much we can talk about. It's kind of a dead end at this point IMO, but I guess that's just me.

I wish I could come up with a new topic to discuss besides predatory behavior, and maybe someone else can. Or maybe we have done all the productive sleuthing we can do for now. :dunno: It happens. JMO

IMO The best case scenario is that a kind, but misguided person found him wandering and took him home, deciding he was neglected and shouldn't be with his parents. That's wrong, but there are people who could think that way. I'm not saying that it's any more likely than an animal, but at least he would be alive. Maybe that's why I'm kind of done with the rather gruesome mountain lion (bear, wolf) debate. Time for me to go back to scrolling and rolling. Carry on. eace:

I agree. I think it's perfectly possible that a mountain lion took DeOrr, but until there is evidence of it it's just one possibility amongst many.

This thread is more difficult than ever now that there is a closed group on Facebook where Jessica is answering questions, but we can't discuss it here... I know that quite a few people from here have joined it, though. Bessie, is there any chance of a social media thread for DeOrr, like we have for little Kyrian Knox?

 

[MBK]

This thread is more difficult than ever now that there is a closed group on Facebook where Jessica is answering questions, but we can't discuss it here... I know that quite a few people from here have joined it, though. Bessie, is there any chance of a social media thread for DeOrr, like we have for little Kyrian Knox?

That would be great. I'm not about to join Facebook for this, but there are some things I would like to know.

I have been wondering "who" Jessica (and Deorr Sr.) told about this trip. Anyone that they might think would follow them there? Great Grandpa the same.

I'd like to know if she or her husband was holding Deorr when they were in the convenience store. I'd like to know if he ate the french fries in the store (did he have a drink?) . . thus adding to the time they were in the store. Other than the staring man, did she take note of anyone else in the store? Did she discuss how they were camping with the store clerk and could anyone have heard it?

I'd also like to know if they made any stops on the way to the campsite on Thursday night where Deorr might have been spotted. And again, did they mention to anyone on Thursday night where they were headed, even in passing?

 

[Rayemonde]

That would be great. I'm not about to join Facebook for this, but there are some things I would like to know.

I have been wondering "who" Jessica (and Deorr Sr.) told about this trip. Anyone that they might think would follow them there? Great Grandpa the same.

I'd like to know if she or her husband was holding Deorr when they were in the convenience store. I'd like to know if he ate the french fries in the store (did he have a drink?) . . thus adding to the time they were in the store. Other than the staring man, did she take note of anyone else in the store? Did she discuss how they were camping with the store clerk and could anyone have heard it?

I'd also like to know if they made any stops on the way to the campsite on Thursday night where Deorr might have been spotted. And again, did they mention to anyone on Thursday night where they were headed, even in passing?

Yes, she has already answered some of these questions in the group and it would be good to have a place where we could discuss it.

 

[pepelepolecat]

"When a lion is hunting or alarmed, he explains, it reflexively shuts down its scent, which is why the dogs can no longer pick up a trail."

http://www.fieldandstream.com/articles/hunting/2006/06/lion-dogs
snip

The quote about shutting off the scent glands was by a hunting guide, not by biologists or animal experts. The author went on to say,

"Biologists haven't proved this yet, but it has long been axiomatic among experienced lion men. "

In other words, the magazine is quoting an opinion -- not a fact -- by a guide.

Cats' scent glands are interesting things. They can deliberately mark things by rubbing their faces against them, clawing, urinating and dropping feces (among other things -- they have NINE sets of scent glands). A ML may not deliberately mark things when he's being hunted (who would?), but until a biologist or reputable source beyond a guide who lost a track states that MLs actually shut down all nine sets of scent glands and go ghost, I'm going to look askance at that opinion.

Here's more information about tracking MLs from a reliable .edu source: http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1037&context=icwdmhandbook

This isn't a .edu source, but it goes into some detail about why it's difficult to hunt MLs and has some interesting information, like how MLs go straight up into more rugged territory (of which there was plenty on that mountain, it seems), if possible, when they feel threatened -- higher ground = safety: http://www.huntingmountainlions.com/

None of this is to say that a ML didn't do this. Of course it's possible that one did this, and if the SAR team didn't use ML-tracking dogs to hunt a ML, there's probably a good reason they didn't find a ML.

 

[pepelepolecat]

I think the problem is that mountain lions can no longer totally avoid people, it's just not possible anymore because there are more people who now encroach on the lions territory. Also, in some areas, there are now also more lions. So if everywhere a ML goes he encounters people, he then moves on to avoid them then what... encounters more people. This could explain how small children are at the wrong place at the wrong time and end up being the victim of a ML attack. I'm not saying that is what happened to Deorr, but it is a possibility as much as anything else at this point. Unless there's evidence we're unaware of, which is very possible. JMO

Though this article doesn't reference Idaho in particular, it is very informative and interesting reading. And it has nothing to do with hunters.

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles/sheley50.html

Would just like to interject that several sources state that MLs are a self-regulating population -- iow, even without hunting, these animals regulate their own numbers by maintaining territories, etc.

http://mountainlion.org/FAQfrequentlyaskedquestions.asp
http://www.mountainlion.org/cal_ch3.asp
http://rapidcityjournal.com/news/lo...cle_50e1f5ae-bff9-54ee-9f9a-a53bff1175da.html
www.balancedecology.org/MountainLio...Mountain_Lions.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Not that this has to do with DeOrr -- imo, there is almost certainly at least one ML in those mountains and probably a few. (again, moo)

 

[neesaki]

Rhetorical question: Weren't we asked much earlier by a mod to agree to disagree about mountain lions? Or is that just wishful thinking on my part? Maybe the mountain lion discussion/debate continues because there really isn't anything much we can talk about. It's kind of a dead end at this point IMO, but I guess that's just me.

I wish I could come up with a new topic to discuss besides predatory behavior, and maybe someone else can. Or maybe we have done all the productive sleuthing we can do for now. :dunno: It happens. JMO

IMO The best case scenario is that a kind, but misguided person found him wandering and took him home, deciding he was neglected and shouldn't be with his parents. That's wrong, but there are people who could think that way. I'm not saying that it's any more likely than an animal, but at least he would be alive. Maybe that's why I'm kind of done with the rather gruesome mountain lion (bear, wolf) debate. Time for me to go back to scrolling and rolling. Carry on. eace:

I checked back a few pages, and FWIW the ML debate appears to be being brought back up by posters who disagree with it and try to prove that it's not a valid theory .... so the debate continues, lol. eace:

 

[neesaki]

Yes, she has already answered some of these questions in the group and it would be good to have a place where we could discuss it.

The problem, and please correct me if I'm wrong, those who aren't already on FB can't access it. TIA eace:

 

[giagreen]

I checked back a few pages, and FWIW the ML debate appears to be being brought back up by posters who disagree with it and try to prove that it's not a valid theory .... so the debate continues, lol. [emoji14]eace:

Exactly. And it doesn't end there. There is of course repeated snarky comments about ml even when nobody is even talking about it. That of course makes it a topic. The fact is a ml is a very real possibility. Of course among other things.

 

[neesaki]

Exactly. And it doesn't end there. There is of course repeated snarky comments about ml even when nobody is even talking about it. That of course makes it a topic. The fact is a ml is a very real possibility. Of course among other things.

Exactly my point..... If there's something we can discuss concerning a human predator perhaps that would be a good direction to take the discussion. :thinking: Well, there are those mountain men, basically homeless men who live in the mountains. That was actually a theory proposed in the Dennis Martin case. If that could be considered a possibility, a mountain man could have taken him miles and miles away.

 

[pepelepolecat]

Exactly my point..... If there's something we can discuss concerning a human predator perhaps that would be a good direction to take the discussion. :thinking: Well, there are those mountain men, basically homeless men who live in the mountains. That was actually a theory proposed in the Dennis Martin case. If that could be considered a possibility, a mountain man could have taken him miles and miles away.

This HAS been proposed in this case, particularly since a RSO was found to be living nearby in the actual wilderness, iirc, according to much, much earlier posts in this topic. And no, I cannot link because I don't have other people's searching magic, but I'm fine with this being filed under "speculation" or opinion or whatever. Someone else may be able to link the previous conversation.

 

[kammiemc]

Good point... All dogs are different though, any one of my dogs would go nuts barking if they spotted a stranger lurking around but others like yours would just wag their tail.

But I bet a dog would be a more likely target of an animal attack than a toddler. Unless maybe the dog was tied up and Deorr had wandered away and just happened to run into an animal.

So true about dogs being different. My last dog, a Briard, took his job of protecting the family very seriously and bit more than one person.


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[pepelepolecat]

(modsnip)

it was the one living at the campsite. I didn't recall seeing they were 26 miles away though. I'd been under the impression that their site was fairly close to the Kunz/Mitchell family site. Good thing I marked that as speculation! (And also a really, really good example of why we should make sure we back up anything we call a fact with a link -- because memory is funny and often wrong!)

 

[neesaki]

Actually, no, I didn't continually bring it up. I responded to someone quoting opinion as fact.

I just meant that it continually gets brought up, not by you in particular, but various. :truce:

This HAS been proposed in this case, particularly since a RSO was found to be living nearby in the actual wilderness, iirc, according to much, much earlier posts in this topic. And no, I cannot link because I don't have other people's searching magic, but I'm fine with this being filed under "speculation" or opinion or whatever. Someone else may be able to link the previous conversation.

I don't remember much about it either except, as you say I think it was brought up early on. I guess there's not much to really say on the subject then without anything else to go on. And agree on the speculation, seems that's all we have here anyway. :gaah:

 

[kammiemc]

No, not a mountain man -- it was the one living at the campsite. I didn't recall seeing they were 26 miles away though. I'd been under the impression that their site was fairly close to the Kunz/Mitchell family site. Good thing I marked that as speculation! (And also a really, really good example of why we should make sure we back up anything we call a fact with a link -- because memory is funny and often wrong!)

Well we are now months in on this case and I, for one, am certainly foggy on some things I heard early on (reported or rumor, etc?) I just happened to stumble across the RSO info again recently. Maybe if LE is indeed (as per the sheriff) starting again at the beginning and re-interviewing the POI's, etc., they will also look again at all these people they have cleared or not, including the cremains spreader.


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